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MP3 or NOT?
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : May 31, 2005 14:40
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[quote]
On 2005-05-31 14:36, RaSSahMunKaBuh wrote:
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On 2005-05-31 14:26, HandA wrote:
im want new Shoes... hey there's a Shoe Shop... I guess i'll just grap a pair and not pay!
if everybody would do this we could bring down nike and there would be no child labous in asia DD
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Maybe so even though I am sure you would be in jail quite fast 
But what's that got to do with this subject? And what about all the other Shoe Manufactors that dont use child labour? Would you also steal their shoes? |
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RaSSahMunKaBuh
Inactive User
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
80
Posted : May 31, 2005 14:43
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[quote]
On 2005-05-31 14:40, HandA wrote:
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On 2005-05-31 14:36, RaSSahMunKaBuh wrote:
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On 2005-05-31 14:26, HandA wrote:
im want new Shoes... hey there's a Shoe Shop... I guess i'll just grap a pair and not pay!
if everybody would do this we could bring down nike and there would be no child labous in asia DD
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Maybe so even though I am sure you would be in jail quite fast
But what's that got to do with this subject? And what about all the other Shoe Manufactors that dont use child labour? Would you also steal their shoes?
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what is there shoecompanies that don t use child labour ? |
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RaSSahMunKaBuh
Inactive User
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
80
Posted : May 31, 2005 14:44
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well this is off topic but so is over half of all post on this genre war forum!!!!! |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : May 31, 2005 15:10
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@HandA
Ok...since you where serious I'm back 
When making that analogy you have to ask yourself one thing.
How come that very very few think it's ok to steal physical property, but the majority seem to think it's ok to download music?
Is it the majority that have screwed up moral, or are you missing something and failing to see the differences that is obvious to most people?
How come it's still legal in many countries to download music but illegal to steal shoes in all countries AFAIK?
If you think you understand the moral better than the lawmakers and the public you have to explain what they are not understanding.
I can explain what I think you are missing.
When I go to a shoe shop I will test the shoes and walk around with them. If all shoe shops refused to let me do that and I repeatedly had to buy shoes I could not return that would not fit I would maybe start stealing them out of frustration.
If it was possible to get the new nikes online for free before they where released in the shop I might verry well consider it.
Then it would seem to me like there was something wrong with having to pay €100 in the shop.
If the free nikes was more convenient and better quality as well I would no doubt forget about buying them in the shop.
I probably would not steal the shoes in the shop even if it was legal, but maybe a lot of people would.
And downloading music is still legal in a lot of countries and is not defined as stealing by the law.
The list of differences can go on and on...but I think you get the point.
If all this similarities was true, nike would no doubt be in trouble.
But if there was plenty of new shoemakers providing shoes for fre or at a very low price that would not bother me much.
And I'm not at all worried about that music would dissapear if it becomes harder to make a lot of money from it. We all know that it will for sure be possible to find ways to make money for those who want and have the capacity to do so.
And the ones that make more obscure music will have an easier time to reach out to fans as well.
I wish you analogy was true though, it would be fantastic if people could produce food and things for free and there was no need for resources to produce it.
But it's still not possible with physical goods, so the analogy is totally irrellevant and misplaced.
 (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
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Dr. Mez
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
35
Posted : May 31, 2005 15:43
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How about replying to what I wrote in this thread and not to what I wrote in another? This is "off topic" to say the least, no?
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On 2005-05-31 13:29, Spindrift wrote:
@Dr Mez
Read up on the geneva convention.
Culture is part of the human rights, and all citizens in a society should have access to culture.
Music is for having fun and is not edible, true.
But having fun should not be something priviliged only to rich countries or individuals.
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I never said that. I said that buying a computer and getting high speed internet is roughly the same price as buying 100 CDs, but instead of buying 100 CDs, they buy something in which they can steal thousands. It seems to me like a cynical abuse of morals when these guys pose as victims. Just as a reminder: high speed internet costs money. More money than buying 2-3 CDs a month.
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On 2005-05-31 15:10, Spindrift wrote:
How come it's still legal in many countries to download music but illegal to steal shoes in all countries AFAIK?
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Because laws take decades to be updated in order to catch up with technology. 10 years ago, kiddie-porn on the internet was legal. Now it isn't. Spam email (a much older phenomena than Napster) is now being outlawed in country after country, but it takes time for the entire world to change laws. The traders are (and probably always will be) a few steps ahead of the legal system, which is proving inefficient in dealing with this problem time and time again. Capture one trader, you have 2000 more to take his place.
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On 2005-05-31 15:10, Spindrift wrote:
When I go to a shoe shop I will test the shoes and walk around with them. If all shoe shops refused to let me do that and I repeatedly had to buy shoes I could not return that would not fit I would maybe start stealing them out of frustration.
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Last time I was at a CD store (and every time before that) I could ask to listen to an album before I buy it. Just like I can try shoes out in a shoe store. Psyshop has clips available (because it'd be impossible to not spread the music freely otherwise). Your analogy is wrong from it's very base. |
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Tris
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
296
Posted : May 31, 2005 15:54
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Comparing shoes and music is totally irrevelant...
Cause downloading music is NOT stealing.
I can listen downloaded music as much as I want. It does not make the copyright owner any poorer. He doesn't even know I doing it less suffer of it.
In a way, it's much more like taking a picture of the car and having the owner complaining I'm enjoying looking at a car I never paid for...
Somehow, he is right but it would sound very selfish to most people. And it's why most people will never see such a big moral issue to downloading music.
And it's why we have to find new solutions and new ideas to distribute music instead of talking about moral all the time.
We won't get nowhere with that.....
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : May 31, 2005 16:05
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On 2005-05-31 15:54, Tris wrote:
Comparing shoes and music is totally irrevelant...
Cause downloading music is NOT stealing.
I can listen downloaded music as much as I want. It does not make the copyright owner any poorer. He doesn't even know I doing it less suffer of it.
In a way, it's much more like taking a picture of the car and having the owner complaining I'm enjoying looking at a car I never paid for...
Somehow, he is right but it would sound very selfish to most people. And it's why most people will never see such a big moral issue to downloading music.
And it's why we have to find new solutions and new ideas to distribute music instead of talking about moral all the time.
We won't get nowhere with that.....
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Suppose you could download a car. That would hurt no one either, right? Or is it so? If the sales of the cars pretty much ended cos everyone just downloaded one instead of buying would that not bankcrupt the car manufacturer?
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : May 31, 2005 16:15
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@Dr Mez
512k ADSL is about the price of one CD a month in Sweden at least.
A computer that will be capable to use for surfing the internet you can get from about €50.
Even the very poorest can have broadband here since the social welfare system here pay for it since it's considered neccessary for looking for work.
Maybe it's considered luxury in the US, but here it's considered pretty much a basic neccessity.
About the laws, copying is not a new phenomenon that came about with the internet.
Read up a bit on the history of copyright legislation and the term "fair use" and cases like the betamax case.
The DMCA is not about adjusting the law to catch up with technological reality.
It's part of the US new approach to intellectual rights, which includes them demanding the rights to patent plants or crops, like thinking they have the rights to basmati rice because they have patent laws that enable them to do so.
It a modern form of imperialism, disgusied under the pretentions of protecting cultural and scientific progress.
If you look at the effects of current patent and copyright laws from the angle of a non-US country they do anything but protect intellectual rights, and rather strip inventors and researchers of their rights.
About prelistening to the music in a record store...
There is a possibility in most record stores, thats true.
The closest store for me where I can do that with trance music is about €50 and 5hrs for me to drive to back and forth in petrol money.
A place to find nike shoes is not far away on the other hand.
Saikosound give a great service, and now with their long previews it's quite an adequate means of judging if you like a CD before you buy.
So I agree...the point about not being able to test the shoes was somewhat incorrect when it comes to music in particular.
With films, games and software It's still a lot of manufacturers that expect you to buy the pig in the sack though.
And we should not forget that according to research carried out about the buying and downloading habits of people, the ones downloading the most also buy the most music.
So to call them thifes is very one sided view, since they are mostly the ones supporting the industry as well.
Please feel free to make further comments about the rest of the differences I pointed out, because I still think that the analogy of stealing is wrong from the base, and there is still a lot more fundamental differences than the ones I listed.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
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http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : May 31, 2005 16:33
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On 2005-05-31 16:05, traveller wrote:
Suppose you could download a car. That would hurt no one either, right? Or is it so? If the sales of the cars pretty much ended cos everyone just downloaded one instead of buying would that not bankcrupt the car manufacturer?
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Now wouldn't that be amazing.
I would ditch my Volvo for some cool open-source car easily
And I'm sure people would develop a lot of more different cars if it was possible to make them without using resources and having people being able to download them.
And I woudn't feel sorry about the car manufacturers really either I must say.
And I'm surprised you do traveller...it was you who said before tht you think movies and big cheeze music is ok to download because they earn so much already.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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mafkaroo
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
47
Posted : May 31, 2005 16:41
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In a way, it's much more like taking a picture of the car and having the owner complaining I'm enjoying looking at a car I never paid for...
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Nope, its more like the owner built the car, and you and similar sorts are taking it for a drive without permission.. |
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Tris
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
296
Posted : May 31, 2005 16:53
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Suppose you could download a car. That would hurt no one either, right? Or is it so? If the sales of the cars pretty much ended cos everyone just downloaded one instead of buying would that not bankcrupt the car manufacturer?
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Sure they will.
That would only means they didn't addapted to the new technology... Their business model would be outdated.
They could complain as much as they want without any result. They could try to slow the process and survive during a while, raising moral issues and making harder laws about it... But in the end, it won't change nothing...
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : May 31, 2005 17:08
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On 2005-05-31 16:53, Tris wrote:
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Suppose you could download a car. That would hurt no one either, right? Or is it so? If the sales of the cars pretty much ended cos everyone just downloaded one instead of buying would that not bankcrupt the car manufacturer?
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Sure they will.
That would only means they didn't addapted to the new technology... Their business model would be outdated.
They could complain as much as they want without any result. They could try to slow the process and survive during a while, raising moral issues and making harder laws about it... But in the end, it won't change nothing...
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So how exactly would they cope with this? No matter what loads of freeloading bastards wouldn't pay a dime cause they could always get the car for free from some p2p app?
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Tris
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
296
Posted : May 31, 2005 17:10
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On 2005-05-31 16:41, mafkaroo wrote:
Nope, its more like the owner built the car, and you and similar sorts are taking it for a drive without permission..
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No. It's totally different.
Because if I "borrow" a car, nobody else can use it while I'm driving. And when I bring back, it's used.
You can't compare that.
BTW, please no "you and similar sorts".
I do download music from time to time. I don't think I'm a thief.
I spend my time organising party that generate money for the artists (musicians and others) and I think it's how the whole scene should work instead of relying on CD sales.
It's OK to sell CDs as long as there are people OK to buy them. But I think it's not a long term solution. It's time to think about something else instead of sticking to old technology...
But if I had the perfect solution, I will tell you, guys. |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : May 31, 2005 17:13
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On 2005-05-31 17:10, Tris wrote:
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On 2005-05-31 16:41, mafkaroo wrote:
Nope, its more like the owner built the car, and you and similar sorts are taking it for a drive without permission..
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No. It's totally different.
Because if I "borrow" a car, nobody else can use it while I'm driving. And when I bring back, it's used.
You can't compare that.
BTW, please no "you and similar sorts".
I do download music from time to time. I don't think I'm a thief.
I spend my time organising party that generate money for the artists (musicians and others) and I think it's how the whole scene should work instead of relying on CD sales.
It's OK to sell CDs as long as there are people OK to buy them. But I think it's not a long term solution. It's time to think about something else instead of sticking to old technology...
But if I had the perfect solution, I will tell you, guys.
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Who do you book for those parties? The top 20 killlarrrrr artists or the rest of the underground artists that get squad out of making music (not even gigs)? |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : May 31, 2005 17:18
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On 2005-05-31 17:10, Tris wrote:
It's time to think about something else instead of sticking to old technology...
But if I had the perfect solution, I will tell you, guys.
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there is no freaking solution since so many freeloading bastards will not pay no matter what. as long as they can get it for free that's exactly what they'll do..
or i don't know maybe the artist should start getting sponsors. that way they could just donate the music to some ftps.. imagine every 30 seconds "drink pepsi" cheesy voice thingy on every freaking track on every single album..
how fun would that be?
then again there would be no problems to start with if someone could fcking assasinate "teh elite psy mp3 ripper groups and their bs egos"
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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