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Trance Forum » » Forum  Promotional Releases - YOU CAN MAKE PSYTRANCE BIGGER !!!!!!!!!!
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YOU CAN MAKE PSYTRANCE BIGGER !!!!!!!!!!

goz}{zer


Started Topics :  5
Posts :  56
Posted : Sep 3, 2005 07:09
Quote:

On 2005-09-03 04:03, talamasca wrote:
Listen , my goal is really not to create a topic where people will argue about what is good or not....there are so many topics that finish in “wars”, that i wanted to speak about something who could reunify all psytrance listeners (whatever the style they like....) instead of dividing them....
But let me explain something....as it was written many times in this forum, the mp3 download and the cd sells are going really down ....I decided to create Mind control last year with mael because i believe in this music....
Now, as a Label, i have to think diferently...let me give some numbers....In 1998 , the psytrance cd who sell the most in France sold more than 30000 pieces....In 2002, it was 700 pieces....and i speak here only about France....but it is a bit similar everywhere......

I am from the generation who saw all his favorite labels (dragonfly, blue room, matsuri, flying rhino and many others...) who had to close because of those things.....and when we created Mind control , we knew that it would be a hard challenge by our times.....tell me how many people really bought Zodiac for exemple, and how many have copies of it.....nobody knows exactly, but everybody knows what is going on.....and this was just an exemple...If there was no cd copies, maybe Infected would really be gold dics all over the world !!!

So, this was to explain another point of view....the label point of view.....We know that we will not be abble to change this situation, so i believe that instead of trying to find how to stop the cd copies, we could try to attract more people to listen our music...which is anyway my goal since i am a dj, that the maximum of people will listen , or minimum “know” this music...

again , i know this is a very “commercial” idea, to go vote for your favorite artist....as I said upper, i am a little bit ashamed to be the one who opened this story , but if i have to use my name to promote the kind of music I believe in, then i do it....and i still believe that more the psytrance artists will be well ranked, more our music will be listened, promoted, and respected.........

And to finish...(yes, it was a looooong one, the longest i’ve ever wrote !) I will just say that you are right andrey...the goal is to bring more people in parties ( and not some “meat” !!!), and to sell more cd’s ...but i don’t understand why it would be bad ???




Hey Cedric mate,

I Super-Agree with this for shure and even more with the last text:

@Talamasca:

Also, if one day you can find your favorite artist new album in the shop just next to your house, or if you could listen your favorite dj’s every week in radio shows, or if you could see all the artists you like on TV, why would it be bad ?????? And what means exactly “commercial” ??? If the music doesn’t change its spirit, but if it is more promoted, is it more “commercial” ???

Agree !!

http://www.mandalarecords.org - Under Construction
Artistic Managment :: :: Hux Flux :: Visua :: Interactive :: Nazuk :: Hyperceptiohm :: Spiritual Enhancer :: Energetic :: MANDALA RECORDS ARTISTES
stompa


Started Topics :  7
Posts :  179
Posted : Sep 3, 2005 09:56
Hey Cedric!
Big thumbs up for your longest reply/letter...

Cheers mate!
Vyenn


Started Topics :  2
Posts :  112
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 05:15
some points..

1) i think cds should be much more cheaper especially cause in some countries as for example Brasil when the cd arrive it arrives really expensive for our economy reality. so if you arent a DJ or like to collect original CDs its faster/cheaper just to burn it, you can download it now burn it now play it in your car now when u go work you can listen to the music and there you go dont need to go out buy it or wait for it to arrive in your mail.. so i agree with what absolum said once the future of cds will be dvds..


2) at least 4me, VERY FEW releases since 2002/2003 are worth of buying even if it were a lot cheaper than what it costs now.

3) I see psytrance as the mainstream genre of electronic music today, more "artists" more releases more "parties" more people more money around than house drumbass etc.. those people who dont know psytrance dont know what is house music as well, they just know it is some kind of electronic music so imo the point is that the electronic music isnt and will never be mainstream like pop rock if thats what you desire.

Now if you want it to be playing on electronic radios personally i have nothing against it 4me there is no such thing as comercial being necessary bad but comercial = money, and when it comes to money people sometimes lose control and forget of their old valors.. so what happens with psytrance nowdays imo is that everyone wanna jump in the bandwagon to sell. i just dont know if making this scene bigger will help bring quality to the music or just destroy it even more, anyway the scene is getting bigger day by day dont need to worry about it just relax we all know the day that psytrance will be on tv and playing on radios is very close its already happening.

4)i like your music Cedric, u r still one of my favorites but i beg you dont follow only this overload line i like lot more the hypnotic control =)

also i really loved the track from protoculture - High octane, that you released. 4me this is the killa line hehe



BooM





talamasca
Talamasca

Started Topics :  22
Posts :  180
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 15:43
hello Vyenn...

i really appreciate that you have a built conversation and not only tried to say that it was bad...you explained why, which is not so often...so i 'll put my point of view....of yours...

1 - you live in Brasil, and as i said upper, brasil is one of the countries where you can listen psytrance on radio, and you have parties every weekends...it is very easy to say that you don't need when you have....

2 - the price of cd's......well, again ,in brasil, and to be abble to be there, we sell the cd's for very very cheap ! you know that between the price of the cd from the label to the distribution, and the price you buy it, is very diferent !
We, Labels, sell to distribution for between 5.5 to 7 euros each...(in brasil i sell cd's just to be there, we don't make any profit, and it is still very expensive for you ! i ask only 2 dollars per cd's sold in brasil !!!!!)so make a calculation : the average of sells in trance nowadays is around 2000 cd's (big labels sells more, little sells less..it is an average...) so, 2000 x 6 euros : 12000 euros for the all world ! there are 9 tracks on a cd..let 's calculate for 500 euros per tracks : 4500 euros...there are 7500 euros left....then, you pay the cover and the mastering (let's say another 1500 euros..) then there is 6000 euros left....then, you ll have to pay the "copyright rights", around 0.8 euros per cds, so 2000 x 0.8 = 1600....so now, you have only 4400 left....any page in any magasine is around 1000 euros, and you need promotion......and at the top of this , you add the taxes that a company have to pay every year.....how can the labels survive ? and give salaries to people ???

3 - I don 't want psytrance to be mainstream as pop-rock at all....I know why this music is made for : to be danced in parties....so it will always stay a party music instead of a background one...but again , you live in brasil.....it is very easy to write : "I see psytrance as the mainstream genre of electronic music today" when you live there....i travel all around the world and there are a lot of countries where trance is FORBIDDEN !

4 -so if i prefer "overload" than "hypnotic control", should I take care about my taste or yours ??? ahahaha....

So the goal is not necessary to play on radios...but to make from this music a "legal" one....as it is not everywhere yet...people who live in france or in Greece (where most of parties are now forbidden)knows what i am talking about.....
DETOX
IsraTrance Senior Member

Started Topics :  296
Posts :  6194
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 16:31
Quote:

On 2005-09-04 15:43, talamasca wrote:

so make a calculation : the average of sells in trance nowadays is around 2000 cd's (big labels sells more, little sells less..it is an average...) so, 2000 x 6 euros : 12000 euros for the all world ! there are 9 tracks on a cd..let 's calculate for 500 euros per tracks : 4500 euros...there are 7500 euros left....then, you pay the cover and the mastering (let's say another 1500 euros..) then there is 6000 euros left....then, you ll have to pay the "copyright rights", around 0.8 euros per cds, so 2000 x 0.8 = 1600....so now, you have only 4400 left....any page in any magasine is around 1000 euros, and you need promotion......and at the top of this , you add the taxes that a company have to pay every year.....how can the labels survive ? and give salaries to people ???




1500 euros for mastering and cover design is not a realistic price but i guess you include in there the price for also printing the cds right Cedric?I mention that in order to make even more clear to people how labels work and not let them wonder about it and think that a label makes a big profit out of every release.

In any case back to the subject.

I was never a fan of djlists and always thought that their lists are not objective at all,i mean i know for sure that managers of artists like Tiesto for example spent days in front of their computers in order to add votes to their artist and have him on top of the world in the end of the voting just for commercial reasons.

Also the dance community all around the world rarely cares about the results of such lists since in the end everyone trusts his music taste and not the votes of other people.I mean for the last years Tiesto has been number one but when the voting ends i see more people saying 'Fuck Tiesto won again?' rather people who say 'Great Tiesto is number one and he deserves it'.

To sum it up i dont personally think that such a voting system can help psy trance at all but thats just me after all.

If someone really wants to help psy trance then people should start buying original cds of their favorite music and artists should start spending more hours in the studio creating more innovative music rather than copying each other and remixing Ghostbusters and The Smurfs.

At the moment we dont need to make psy trance bigger but better.           Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!!
Zimon Post Forced


Started Topics :  2
Posts :  157
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 16:38
Quote:

On 2005-09-04 16:31, DETOX wrote:
At the moment we dont need to make psy trance bigger but better.



ill drink to that
Lauryn
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  51
Posts :  729
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 17:09
Quote:

On 2005-09-04 16:38, Zimon Post Forced wrote:
Quote:

On 2005-09-04 16:31, DETOX wrote:
At the moment we dont need to make psy trance bigger but better.



ill drink to that



With respect to psytrance...
Better doesn't always mean bigger
Smaller doesn't always mean better
Bigger doesn't always mean commercial

But yes, I should hope 'better' is the end goal for everyone...we just all have different ideas and visions of what exactly 'better' is...

Cedric, its good that there are many people like you who care enough about this music to keep it from becoming stagnant, because that is the one thing that would kill it in the end.


          ~gOa ist nicht nur musik sondern auch eine lebenseinstellung~
http://www.peakrec.com/
http://www.myspace.com/djlauryn
Andrew
Voice Of Cod / Zuloop

Started Topics :  14
Posts :  218
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 18:45
guys - bottm line is that there is very curently little money in psytrance. I have helped do A&R at Organic records for 3 years, and we sell on average 1500 cds each time but this has been falling. sometimes I don't even get paid for my music on the cds, never mind all the work i do for the label

To be honest I don't expect to make a living off making this kind of music (even though big name DJ's like John 00 Fleming are now playing Voice of Cod) but it would be great to see psytrance get more recognition in the world of dance - some psytrance is sheer brilliance, with creativity showing no bounds - things which are celebrated in fields such as art or writing. In music especially dance the lowest common denominator has been served for a very long time... why not celebrate the most vibrant and creative music in the world too as well as the most vibrant artwork or books??!!!

Cheers all

Andrew





full_on
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  279
Posts :  5475
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 21:02
Lestat, I bought all releases from Mind Control up to now. I really appreciate that you made most of them available at my country (Brazil), specially for this low profile US$ 2,00 per CD, this shows you care about your fans here, big respect to that.

I understand the Label´s point of view, of course it needs enough money to survive. Cheap and large spectrum initiatives like your website are really effective.

I´ll speak about my country: The biggest problem here is that most people, including the party goers, have the wrong vision that psytrance party = taking drugs. More than 98% of people at party never saw an original CD in their whole life, but most of them spend a lot of money buying drugs.

People who go to psytrance parties at Brazil usually are richer that the average, just look at the parting area: mostly new or imported cars. A lot of people taking pics with their high-tech mobile phones, most people dressed with very expensive clothes. A lot of people are there to show off.

We here need education, more than once people asked me: "You don´t feel stupid wasting money buying these CDs? They are for free on the internet..."

I think you´re right to promote the music you believe in. What people here don´t like about "commercial" is that, the bigger the party, the more "Big Names", the more marketing about the parties, the less people care about the music being played, the more people think drugs are the objective, and on top of all that, the less the percentage of people on the party that really care about the qualities of psytrance and affectively support the scene and labels.

Keep making what you believe, the same way I´ll keep trying to educate people at my country...
Respect!           .
...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
.
...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell...
Vyenn


Started Topics :  2
Posts :  112
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 21:31
Lol
follow your own taste always man
P_Mac
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  61
Posts :  1484
Posted : Sep 4, 2005 21:55
Quote:

On 2005-09-04 21:02, full_on wrote:

I´ll speak about my country: The biggest problem here is that most people, including the party goers, have the wrong vision that psytrance party = taking drugs. More than 98% of people at party never saw an original CD in their whole life, but most of them spend a lot of money buying drugs.

People who go to psytrance parties at Brazil usually are richer that the average, just look at the parting area: mostly new or imported cars. A lot of people taking pics with their high-tech mobile phones, most people dressed with very expensive clothes. A lot of people are there to show off.




Sadly enough its not only in Brasil.
          
www.boomfestival.org
www.ketuhrecords.com

DONT SEND MP3 SAMPLES PLS!!!!!
talamasca
Talamasca

Started Topics :  22
Posts :  180
Posted : Sep 5, 2005 00:12
detox.....long time no see........
How can you say that it is not a realistic price ??? a good and professional mastering cost between 500 to 1000 dollars....at 3D Vision, we went in a professional studio to make them, and it costed all the time 1000 euros...
About covers, come on...i can find tomorrow covers for 300 dollars...but if i don't want any mistake, i go to a professionnal guy (maybe you have a very good friend who do the design for you..then, it is diferent...)and this will cost you also between 500 to 1000...so 1500 was really an average price for a good professionnal product...

But you detox, who live in greece and who made a lot of parties in athens, i used to see you minimum three times a year before, now, i see that in Athens all the parties are cancelled by the Police and Greece is certainly in Europe one of the country where the government is clearly against trance parties....but house , no problem !!! you can make...techno, no problem...but trance, is forbidden....I've played last week in Samothraki , and even if the place is really great, and it was a really gooood party, i still saw for each boat that arrived to the island cops with dogs....i spoke with the promoters...only 7 of them were arrested, and five of them for only personnal doses.....so where is the freedom to listen trance in your country...?

Also, when i was speaking about 9 tracks of 500 euros each, you are one of the labels who bought tracks for much higher prices...so i don't think you can say that i did put unrealistic prices...and as you mentionned, i didn't speak about the cost of the cd printing...which is around 1 dollar each cd....in those conditions...little labels are dying...

Now, forget about this djlist, this is just a little drop and alone, will not change anything of course...but many drops together, in the end, could help....(those ones are drops of water )
Anyway detox, you know me personnaly and know that this post was not against you...i just try to make the conversation a bit more interesting than just :"this is bullshit" or :"commercial is shit"...

About this djlist....we all know here that it is not "real"...me first....!!! Juno Reactor is my favorite band and is ranked after me, so i know it is not realistic, and not "true"...but it is a way like another to promote...and where else than here to reach a big number of trance lovers ?

DETOX
IsraTrance Senior Member

Started Topics :  296
Posts :  6194
Posted : Sep 5, 2005 00:59
Long time no see indeed my friend Cedric.

I still insist that the mastering and cover design expenses rarely go over 1000 euros and i am talking about very good and profesional stuff not just a fake mastering and a bad cover design,i think by the way that we use the same mastering engineer (Space Cat) who is great on his job like we both know.Concerning cover design i think that there are many good designers around and on good prices to do the job.Anyway there is no point on disputing over this matter any longer since a label has much bigger expenses that mastering and cover design.

Very correctly you said that Psy Trance music is not welcome in Greece anymore,specially in Athens its almost impossible to organise a 2000 people party like the ones we used to do together couple of years ago,i got a DVD to give you by the way from that party with you and Parasense in Athens the last time we saw each other,nice times back then indeed.What you probably dont know is that in Athens every kind of electronic music is not welcome,techno music is not welcome and one of the most famous clubs in Greece where you have also played twice (U-Matic Club) is closed for long time now,the same applies with another big club in Athens playing progressive and house music (Home Club) that faced very big problems with the police in the beggining of the summer.I dont know why but in Athens police is trying to eliminate dance music and also in other cities the authorities try to limit or stop this kind of events.

Back to the label business we both know that tracks from 'big artists' cost much more than 500 euros and we all know how important big name artists are for a label if it plans to sell more cds than the usual and try to survive in the business,also like you said there is a big cost in printing lets say 2000 cds that can easily cost up to 1500 euros creating another big expense for the label.In the end of the day its not only little labels that die but also big and legendary labels like Spirit Zone that just recently closed its doors,in our days with so many (and bad) labels around its difficult to survive in such a small market where the share of sales gets divided in hundreds of pieces leaving everybody hungry in the end...

Anyway like you said we both know each other and ofcourse i know that your post was not against me,we both try to make this conversation more interesting and who knows something good might come out of it in the end.

Speak to you soon and my best wishes to you and your beautiful familly           Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!!
talamasca
Talamasca

Started Topics :  22
Posts :  180
Posted : Sep 5, 2005 01:11
ehehe...i knew you will answer fast !!!! ah!ah!ah! no parties anymore so you stay behind the screen ..ehehe.....
ok, so if you said that all kind of electronic music have problems, than you must be right, you know better than me what's going on...my mistake....but who opened the last olympic games ?.......tiesto...

anyway, ...the name of the topic, is "you can make psytrance bigger"... here is a place where many label managers , artists and organisers come to read...(and i believe this topic already attracted a lot of people...), so here is the new question :

What do you think is the best way for psytrance sub-genres to work together instead of against each others ?
DETOX
IsraTrance Senior Member

Started Topics :  296
Posts :  6194
Posted : Sep 5, 2005 01:46
Yeah but the problem is that after the Olympics half the dance clubs of Athens were closed one way or another (except that hosting Tiesto ofcourse hehe).

And to answer your new question i think that stop inventing new sub gendres every month would be a good start,i mean we are no more than 20.000 people that listen to psy trance on a worldwide basis and we already have something like ten sub genres....           Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!!
Trance Forum » » Forum  Promotional Releases - YOU CAN MAKE PSYTRANCE BIGGER !!!!!!!!!!
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