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the concept of HELL in psytrance
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 3, 2007 23:47
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| Pavel wrote:
I feel so unwanted suddenly.
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Well I am sorry, I know that psychedelic doesn’t necessarily mean entheogen dimensions, but perhaps if we define this music as something like “entheogen trance” it might help filter all the BS and confusion of people thinking that whatever poser teenage attitudes they come up with are actually psychedelic. Because the standard for what we consider psychedelic has really gone down the drain and our scene is suddenly flooded with all these lame music and perceptions that have NOTHING to do with the psychedelic vibe that got this music started which was psychedelic by ALL STANDARDS
So maybe calling the music “entheogen trance” can put a strong filter against wanabes and posers, because I think many people will agree that in the entheogen dimension there is less space for BS and in there we are defining a VERY HIGH standard of what psychedelic actually means.
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mudpeople
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 00:25
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I like music that I can dance to.
Whatever its called...
umm...
Entheo-dark-light-evil-melodic-goa-minimal-progressive-tribal-eating-shit-out-of-assholes-on-film-with -a-plastic-hat-that-says-FUCK trance.
Thats what I like.
Aluxe, maybe you'd like to start the International Trance Conformity Police, you seem to know all about what trance SHOULD be.
Maybe you have what YOU want and what it 'should be' mixed up.
Lame music is in all strata. There is PLENTY of melodic, progressive, morning, or whatnot, that is complete garbage. Singling out one style and pointing everyone to it is an excellent distraction technique. Kinda like the news media in my country...
If you hate one style of music because crap has come out of it, you should hate ALL music that has ever been associated with crap.
Which is ALL MUSIC. From the beginning of time, there have been posers.
Psychedelic to me, means much more than just what the music sounds like. Its a combination of many things, and mainly, to me, its about feeling. Ive found a TON of music in all styles, (ALL, not just psy, not just electronic) that brings about feelings and thoughts that remind me of psychedelic experiences. Psychedelic is just one word for it, as well.
Putting it all in a box of psychedelic is pretty limiting. Even more so when the demand is made that IT MUST FIT THESE CRITERIA TO BE THIS STYLE. And, which of us gets to be the one to pick what kind of stuff is "THE" CRITERIA? YOU!!??! What if I like something that you leave out, or dislike something you keep?
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 04:11
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On 2007-05-04 00:25, mudpeople wrote:
I like music that I can dance to.
Whatever its called...
umm...
Entheo-dark-light-evil-melodic-goa-minimal-progressive-tribal-eating-shit-out-of-assholes-on-film-with -a-plastic-hat-that-says-FUCK trance.
Thats what I like.
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Well that is nice dude, but I think the focus here is on what is psychedelic, specifically psychedelic trance.
Yeah and not so much “eating shit out of assholes” music, even though of course you are entitled to like that as well and I respect that.
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Putting it all in a box of psychedelic is pretty limiting. Even more so when the demand is made that IT MUST FIT THESE CRITERIA TO BE THIS STYLE. And, which of us gets to be the one to pick what kind of stuff is "THE" CRITERIA? YOU!!??! What if I like something that you leave out, or dislike something you keep?
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All I am proposing is that we use the enthogenic dimension as a basis to define what is psychedelic. Otherwise anything goes and the standard for what is considered psychedelic goes down the drain as even the back street boys start to claim they are psychedelic.
You know all the pionneers of psy trance learned what psychedelic was in the entheogenic dimensions because nothing will take you so deep into the psy rabbit hole as psychedelics do. And whether we want to accept it or not psychedelics have been definining what psychedelic actually means, hey at least you would know we are setting up a very high standard by definining what is psychedelic from an entheogenic dimension perspective. You want to top off that, fine, but take the entheogenic dimensions as the standard and basis to judge what is psychedelic. Then we'll be in good shape.
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mudpeople
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 06:34
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Yes, but of course entheogens are not the only things that are psychedelic. Prayer, dancing, singing, playing musical instruments, meditation, astral projection, even things like reading a book can be psychedelic.
To me, psychedelic is something the mind does, that certain things can bring about in different ways. The mind is the brush and the canvas, all that is needed to complete a work of art is the paint. And with the power of the human mind that paint can be imagined, not just induced from outside stimuli. Of course, Im not opposed to outside stimuli, though, I do recognize that its not the only way.
Many paths, many different things to see on the way, but all in all its the same desination.
Some people even use things like brutality and violence, imagined or otherwise, to acheive altered states of consciousness that could be called psychedelic. Some people like to watch Night of the Living Dead on acid with death metal playing in the background. Apparently they have a good enough time of it.
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exotic
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 08:53
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Aluxe that is such a bigoted/elitist point of view that you are you trying to put acrosss ! so if there's a party with so called "entheogen" music playing (first off you are assumin that entheogens must go with dark psychedelic trance , what about people like me who dont trip on entheogens and prefer a nice smoke instead ) , that is setting the 'standard' for what is 'psychedelic' and the rest is unwanted trash ? its very easy for you to talk about setting the STANDARD ,, this scene consists of numerous music producers who cater to different segments of psychedelic trance music audiences and by putting a filter in place will segregate and divide the scene further. Its already bad enough as it is.
And at the end of the day who decides what is psychedelic and what isnt , who should be in and who shouldnt , wasnt this culture based on freedom - where all mind sets are tolerated and one is free to do whatever he wants ? isnt that what 'rave' was all about initially? by putting a selection process in place for what entails 'psychedelic' defeats the very purpose and very foundations of what this culture was built on.
Eating a substance doesnt make it PSYCHEDELIC , its a combination of factors like mudpeople said. Maybe someone who dances for ten hours gets as much a kick out of a party like you get with lets say .5gms of mescaline.
Please be a little more open minded and think a little before making such sweeping statements. Its not in good taste.
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Pavel
Troll
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Posted : May 4, 2007 09:15
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On 2007-05-03 23:47, Aluxe wrote:
Quote:
| Pavel wrote:
I feel so unwanted suddenly.
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Well I am sorry, I know that psychedelic doesn’t necessarily mean entheogen dimensions, but perhaps if we define this music as something like “entheogen trance” it might help filter all the BS and confusion of people thinking that whatever poser teenage attitudes they come up with are actually psychedelic. Because the standard for what we consider psychedelic has really gone down the drain and our scene is suddenly flooded with all these lame music and perceptions that have NOTHING to do with the psychedelic vibe that got this music started which was psychedelic by ALL STANDARDS
So maybe calling the music “entheogen trance” can put a strong filter against wanabes and posers, because I think many people will agree that in the entheogen dimension there is less space for BS and in there we are defining a VERY HIGH standard of what psychedelic actually means.
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That's going to filter out me and many other people that prefer not to mess with Entheogens but still love or loved the music very much. I think this kind of attitude fits very little the original reasons why i was drawn into this subculture. For me it was a melting pot of many influences. You were accepted just for the good vibe you bring in. As long as it wasn't a violent one.
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Pavel
Troll
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Posted : May 4, 2007 09:16
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On 2007-05-04 00:25, mudpeople wrote:
Psychedelic to me, means much more than just what the music sounds like. Its a combination of many things, and mainly, to me, its about feeling. Ive found a TON of music in all styles, (ALL, not just psy, not just electronic) that brings about feelings and thoughts that remind me of psychedelic experiences. Psychedelic is just one word for it, as well.
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+1
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 10:10
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Guys I just feel that the word psychedelic is been exploited and used to describe just about anything and everything these days. And also there seems to be a lot of music coming out in the name of psychedelic trance that does not seem to be connected with any true or genuine psychedelic experience.
So I think, ok, what can help us understand what psychedelic really is? I am sure there are many answers, but if you really want to leave no room for doubt about what psychedelic actually is, well consider then the enthogenic dimensions. That is all I am saying guys. Ok? You don't have to pop the pill, that is not what I am saying. Some people seem to be naturally tuned in with the psy vibe, and the music is all they need.
But you can't argue that the entheogen dimension is BY ALL STANDARDS psychedelic. Which is precisely why I suggest we use this to help us understand what psychedelic actually is and perhaps to even use it as a standard so that our scene does not lose focus and starts confusing death metal or the mickey mouse club with something psychedelic. OK, unless you really want to lower the standard.
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Some people like to watch Night of the Living Dead on acid with death metal playing in the background. Apparently they have a good enough time of it.
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I think the key word here is "acid". |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 12:02
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A hell of a Very good time thank u very much!I saw Freddy Crueger on acid and it was very good and i enjoyed the movie a lot (maybe because i havent saw it before), a very small part of the trip.
It was very funny!:::)))
What is psychedellic?
ask your parents
( or what was psychodelic those days is not psychadellic now?)
or maybe its just a retarted concept????
Would you like to explain those colours and shapes?Those emotions or
Some psychedellic rock vet, said to me that psychedellic is those subliminal messages that get to you through associations from the lyrics.
U can talk and argue all year here u will still won't get one answer.
I think psychedellic is psychedellic! |
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MARGHERITA
Master Margherita
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Posted : May 4, 2007 15:44
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 20:10
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Quote:
| Aluxe wrote:
But you can't argue that the entheogen dimension is BY ALL STANDARDS psychedelic.
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Sorry, I actually meant to say above that you can't argue that the entheogen dimension >>isn’t<< by all standards psychedelic. In other words, everyone seems to at least agree that the entheogen dimensions are completely psychedelic.
So going back to the topic: does the concept of hell in trance make sense? Hey maybe with a dose of DMT it does. Hahahaha
Yeah just like watching horror movies on acid. And it’s because psychedelics can bring real mind blowing psychedelia to everything very easily. Something that is hard to do without psychedelics. And some people like Terrence Mckenna even went as far as to say that there is no other way around it, you need these enthogens if you want to access these psychedelic dimensions. And I think he was just trying to be honest about this, rather than sugar coating his thoughts so that others who do not take psychedelics would not feel excluded.
Conclusion: Evil death trance is ok just as long as you are high on psychedelics. Hey I am kidding. But think about it, how long can the evil death ideas last while you are tripping high in the enthoegenic dimensions? My perception is that at some point you either drop them or transform them or spin them from a new angle that is more psychedelic. I know it’s easy to be an evil worshipping satanist while you are sober, but I am under the impression that if you try it on mushrooms or peyote it might not be as easy. Like you might see satan become to real or possibly you suddenly see the whole attitude as plain dumb and silly against the contrast of these unknown and mind blowing dimensions. However I did read somewhere that Aliester Croweley at some point took mescaline and went to the desert to contact the devil. Crazy stuff for sure, but psychedelic?
Just some thoughts amigos..
Hey Pavel, Exotic and others.. No I do not wish to exclude people that do not consume psychedelics. Hey I don’t even trip anymore, and I think more than anything I just want to explore this issue.
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mudpeople
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Posted : May 4, 2007 21:27
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Just as the idea of 'psychedelic' differs from person to person, so does the idea of 'hell'. Honestly, I don't quite know where people hear this 'hell' reference. And I don't just mean movie samples or something thrown in now and again. Sure there's some artists out there who would really like to be considered hellish, evil trance artists, but IMO they never quite fill the shoes.
And too, to believe in Hell one has to believe in Heaven, and God, and all the Jewish or Christian mythology. One also has to believe in an inherent 'good' and 'bad'. I don't believe we as dumb hairless monkeys are fully equipped, mentally and spiritually, to arbitrate good from bad, if there was such a thing. Its only our perception of it that causes it to be seen as one or the other.
A majority of so-called dark psytrance is not at all dark, although, in certain states of mind it can be a bit overwhelming. Thats the point! Its pure psychedelic music, hardly even music in some cases, more like a soundtrack to madness. How that madness is brought about is not so important. You go out beyond the 'normal' and the 'comfortable', to places that fear has kept you from looking. And you realize, that its not the thing you fear, but the fear itself, that causes you to be so uncomfortable. Then you see, that all you need to do is just let the fear slip away like a shed skin, too loose for the bold new psyche emerging like a butterfly from the chrysalis you didn't even know you were pupating in. You come back to yourself stronger, fearless, confident that you can defeat that fear again, and next time it'll be that much easier.
Shamanic traditions are common all over the world, and their tools vary widely, from insane Datura species to wise Psilocybe species, to nothing at all. The real uniting factor of shamanism is not that they use psychedelics, but that they use the power of the human imagination. Psychedelics can open the gates, so to speak, of the imagination. But are not necessary. Even Crowley's magic was that same imaginative power. Its not the drugs, its US!! The human mind itself is a psychedelic, and I don't just mean endogenous DMT.
As well, many shamanic and tribal rites could be viewed as hellish or satanic. Iboga rituals in West Africa vary from benign Christianized to ritual sacrifice of animals to violent traditions, and of course the stories regarding Iboga are pretty dark as well. But that's of course taken in cultural contrast. But regardless of how the West perceives these rituals, they are vital parts of these people's lives. And very psychedelic.
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 4, 2007 21:36
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^^Very nicely said man and some very good points. |
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DJ_420
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Posted : May 5, 2007 00:16
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And too, to believe in Hell one has to believe in Heaven, and God, and all the Jewish or Christian mythology.
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I don't think the concept of "hell" is really exclusive to the Judeo-Christian traditions.. for example, in the Buddhist cosmology, you have Naraka, located at the bottom of the wheel of samsara, which is basically a hell realm.
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mudpeople
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 5, 2007 22:42
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Yeah, more accurately; in order to believe in hell, one has to believe in some kind of universal constant of 'good' or 'bad'.
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