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*** POLICE BRUTALITY CAUSED DEATH ON MUSIC FESTIVAL CZECHTEK***
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karnaf
IsraTrance Full Member
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1745
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 13:57
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funny how neither of you two had answered my question. I guess it's too much to ask.
@HandA - when I say you and traveller monopolized this topic, it's not because I don't agree with you (I never said I disagree with you). It is because statistically 50% of the posts in this topic are by 4 users, which you and traveller are 2 of. This is what I call monopolizing a topic.
As for the rest of it, we can continue it it private, I see no reason for branching this topic to another direction (subject: whether karnaf agrees with HandA and traveller or not)
I am still saying that I saw the videos, the pictures and read some articles and I think the Czech police had used its force inappropriately and without that much of a need. I am sure that there was another solution to any problem that festival might have caused without physically hurting anyone.
  Please REMOVE my cellphone number from any SMS spam list you may have. Thanks.
http://www.savetherhino.org |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:00
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On 2005-08-03 13:43, eyerina wrote:
these are not speculations...
even if those officers had their id tags on (which are not so obvious for some reason. for me all of them just look plain balck), still they did not have to be rude to people who were on the field for whatever reason and in whatever state of mind. and of course they were not supposed to throw stuff into people's cars...
the death is part of the after-effect caused by panic which was caused by rude police intrusion. so even if the lorry doesnt belong to police, the whole situaiton is tied into one. IMHO
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again very black and white observations.
Where were the Ghandi method to protest without violence? I also saw the video's and all the pictures and to me it seem like the party people were just as violent as the Police. It's takes 2 to tango. |
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eyerina
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
112
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:06
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HandA - amazing how you have so little tolerance in discussions... and you are using too much space by copy-pasting messages you are replying to. could you please be more user-freindly?
as for the SUBJECT - i think 30 minutes warning is not enough time to leave for a few thousand people at once. police should have gone to organizers first of all.
i also dont agree with you that people were violent with police. some of them were actually just talking to policemen - asking why. it is clear from the media which is available |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:07
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On 2005-08-03 13:57, karnaf wrote:
funny how neither of you two had answered my question. I guess it's too much to ask.
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Here's your answer which I actually did answer before but again for you 
All details are relevant in this topic and in order not go go totally black and white focusing only on the Police's wrong doing I an travller make it a bit more variated and try to balance things. We never said we agreed with the Police's methodes. All we say is that there's always 2 sides of a story.
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On 2005-08-03 13:57, karnaf wrote:
@HandA - when I say you and traveller monopolized this topic, it's not because I don't agree with you (I never said I disagree with you). It is because statistically 50% of the posts in this topic are by 4 users, which you and traveller are 2 of. This is what I call monopolizing a topic.
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Personally i dont really care about statistics. They are so boring and rarely paint an accurate picture. I rather look at what people say and not focus on how many posts they wrote
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On 2005-08-03 13:57, karnaf wrote:
As for the rest of it, we can continue it it private, I see no reason for branching this topic to another direction (subject: whether karnaf agrees with HandA and traveller or not)
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Again I have to say that nothing we have written here are one inch away from the topic. We debate the details and that's totaly within the guidelines of this forum.
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On 2005-08-03 13:57, karnaf wrote:
I am still saying that I saw the videos, the pictures and read some articles and I think the Czech police had used its force inappropriately and without that much of a need. I am sure that there was another solution to any problem that festival might have caused without physically hurting anyone.
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I agree that the Police could have handeled thinsg different but again please look at the overall picture for aminute. Could the party people have done something different? In my opinion yes. They could have left when asked to leave and the could have chosen not to get violent themsleves. See again it's a matter of looking at all the details. Even as "unimportant" as they seem to you |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:09
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On 2005-08-03 14:06, eyerina wrote:
HandA - amazing how you have so little tolerance in discussions... and you are using too much space by copy-pasting messages you are replying to. could you please be more user-freindly?
as for the SUBJECT - i think 30 minutes warning is not enough time to leave for a few thousand people at once. police should have gone to organizers first of all. imho
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Is it because you disagree with me and cant see that it's not all that black & white that you think I am untollerant? I guess so
And when was it ever wrong to quote other people so when people read an answer they actually understand what it's all about?
I dont see you complain about other people that quote people!
Btw do you personally know if the Police wnet to the organisers first or not? I sure dont and that's why i dont speculate.
Now please write an appropiate serious answer focusing on the topic instead of focusing on me as a person thank you.
Could we try to get back on topic? |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:11
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On 2005-08-03 14:06, eyerina wrote:
HandA - amazing how you have so little tolerance in discussions... and you are using too much space by copy-pasting messages you are replying to. could you please be more user-freindly?
as for the SUBJECT - i think 30 minutes warning is not enough time to leave for a few thousand people at once. police should have gone to organizers first of all. imho
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Did they not try to block people atfirst so they wouldn't have even been there in the first place?
Didn't they do the first small raid like 10 hours before the big one?
I'm quite certain the last warning given 30 minutes before it started was just one of many..
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:23
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Answer from the Czech Minister of Foreign Affairs Office.
Dear Sir:
Thank you for your letter. As you know, the whole issue is much more complicated than what one letter can explain. Last year, the police was critisized for not protecting the property rights and other freedoms of people living in the village, where the same „CzechTek“ party was organized. This year, police tried to prevent thousands of people to violate the same rights and it is critisized again. Complex problems such as this do not have easy solutions.
With hope that you understand
Best regards
Referát veřejných informací
Mgr. Richard Krpač
zástupce tiskového mluvčího a ředitele odboru
Odbor tiskového mluvčího
Ministerstvo zahraničních věcí ČR
Loretánské nám. 5
110 00 Praha 1
tel.: 224 182 426
224 182 642
224 182 675
hmmm obviously a biased letter.
I am looking forward to recieve the answers from the EC and the Danish and Swedish Foreignminister's Office. |
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Jingabé
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
387
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:37
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At traveller and especially Handa:
Why do you always make a point on trying to look smarter than all the rest here? The point here is not if you are right or wrong, it's your attitude. You two seem very very pretentious!! Maybe you should start a section in some maganize where people would write letters to you asking for your so enlightened opinion. Maybe you woul'd feel more appreciated. Please, change your atittude. People would read your opinions or listen to you with more of an open-mind if you didn't sound so preaching.
As for the topic itself. I will state my opinion again. No matter if the Police had the right or not to intervene, they did it using disproportioned force. Did they really tried everything before resorting to violence? Did they try to confiscate the power generators or the sound equipment? People where there for the music. No music and they would have, sooner or later, been gone. And this should not have been a problem to them. Hell, they even got an armored car there!
All I say is. The methods of the Police or the sentence of a court of law must be adequate to the crime. |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:51
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On 2005-08-03 14:37, Jingabé wrote:
At traveller and especially Handa:
Why do you always make a point on trying to look smarter than all the rest here? The point here is not if you are right or wrong, it's your attitude. You two seem very very pretentious!! |
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May I ask why some people here always take things down to a personal level and why some people have such a hard time not accepting other people's opinion?
Care to answer that?
And why cant we just stay with the topic? |
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eyerina
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
112
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:53
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amazing. do you ask this yourself actually?
as for the subject: at the moment i prefer to wait for more news which will clarify the picture. |
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Technognome
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
10
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:58
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Register your disgust of the police actions by emailing The Prague Daily Monitor telling them that you intend to boycott the Czech republic.
Prague Daily Monitor editor@praguemonitor.com Theodore Schwinke
also
Radio Prague cr@radio.cz
PHLUR :sunny |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 14:59
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Why do you always make a point on trying to look smarter than all the rest here? The point here is not if you are right or wrong, it's your attitude. You two seem very very pretentious!!
What? Trying to look smarter? WHAT?
The point is exactly about being right or wrong. What's so pretentious about pointing out lies?
Maybe you should start a section in some maganize where people would write letters to you asking for your so enlightened opinion. Maybe you woul'd feel more appreciated. Please, change your atittude. People would read your opinions or listen to you with more of an open-mind if you didn't sound so preaching.
Now WHO is preaching and making stupid suggestions and starting to go personal? It's all about intepretion. Say for example that you realize that you were wrong. The next thing you do is a personal insult. Who is the one with the sucky attitude?
As for the topic itself. I will state my opinion again. No matter if the Police had the right or not to intervene, they did it using disproportioned force. Did they really tried everything before resorting to violence? Did they try to confiscate the power generators or the sound equipment? People where there for the music. No music and they would have, sooner or later, been gone. And this should not have been a problem to them. Hell, they even got an armored car there!
All I say is. The methods of the Police or the sentence of a court of law must be adequate to the crime.
Yes well from what I've gathered the music stopped playing about 20 minutes after the festival began and the big raid took place like 10 hours later. Meanwhile police told the people to leave multiple times. Then there was the final warning followed by a 30 minute pause and then some tear gas and the approaching police who were assaulted by random festival goers.
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Dot Kite
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
35
Posts :
431
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 15:01
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On 2005-08-03 14:11, traveller wrote:
I'm quite certain the last warning given 30 minutes before it started was just one of many..
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Dear Traveller,
how can you be so sure regarding the warning time? You weren't there ! So, you can't KNOW!
In your immagination can be everything you want to be! but this doesn't mean it is correct or not!
Please, once again, I would like to invite you to not take any "official" position for this topic, since you weree not there and the only source of information you get are several W-sites....
Moreover, I would like to add that this is not a negative criticism I am doing to you . . .
best regards
Tms |
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karnaf
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
1745
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 15:03
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Solutions the police might have used:
1. cutting the power supply
2. turn off the music by telling the DJs to stop (ask GuyShanti, he'd tell you these things work )
3. closing the area with the people in it, but not forcing them to leave.
Things the police did wrong from what I saw on the videos
1. send in a huge force.
2. use tear gas, hoses, etc.
3. send people that aren't that "clear minded" (be it alcohol or other stuff) on the roads.
that's what I think.
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On 2005-08-03 14:59, traveller wrote:
Yes well from what I've gathered the music stopped playing about 20 minutes after the festival began and the big raid took place like 10 hours later. Meanwhile police told the people to leave multiple times. Then there was the final warning followed by a 30 minute pause and then some tear gas and the approaching police who were assaulted by random festival goers.
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doesn't fit the videos - you can clearly see people dance when the cops come. were they dancing with no music???
Please REMOVE my cellphone number from any SMS spam list you may have. Thanks.
http://www.savetherhino.org |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : Aug 3, 2005 15:03
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On 2005-08-03 15:01, Dot Kite wrote:
Dear Traveller,
how can you be so sure regarding the warning time? You weren't there ! So, you can't KNOW!
In your immagination can be everything you want to be! but this doesn't mean it is correct or not!
Please, once again, I would like to invite you to not take any "official" position for this topic, since you weree not there and the only source of information you get are several W-sites....
Moreover, I would like to add that this is not a negative criticism I am doing to you . . .
best regards
Tms
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I've written this now probably 5 times already
1) Police tried to block people so they would not have been there in the first place
2) There was earlier small raid 20 min after the festival started and after that the music stopped
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You think the police just did a raid for fun and didn't tell people why they're blocking access and why they stopped the music? Then they drink gupta for 10 hours and give no warning or anything?
It's common sense..
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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