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Is there any demand for 24-bit WAV files?
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
168
Posts :
2984
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 19:42
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Simple survey... is there any demand for 24-bit WAV files? Since I've been running my site I end up with a lot of high-quality files lying around that I then convert to 16-bit for CD burning... but if for some reason DJs and music collectors had an interest in 24-bit files I might go to the trouble of making those available as well, where possible. I'm guessing the answer is probably "no" but thought it wise to ask the informed opinion of the Isratrance equip/creation forum 
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 19:50
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16 bits is enough for playback of a final track. Anyone wanting 24 bit for playback of psytrance is only looking at the numbers (more is better) without really understanding them.
UnderTow |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 20:24
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when I play live, I notice a sound differential when playing 16 vs 24 or even 32... I did a blind taste test with a couple of non-producer friends and they actually agreed that they enjoyed the higher bit depth more than the cd quality.
Also, why would mastering engineers ask for the tracks in 24 bit or higher if they were going to convert it to 16 for putting it on a cd? From my experiences with the mastering engineers I've dealt with, all of them have requested the mixdowns in 24 or 32 bit, and none have stipulated what sample rate it should be sent in....  An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
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87
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2822
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 21:21
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i agree with mubali..and even wonder why cd is still so popular..i mean..a dvd can go up to 24 bit 96khz in stereo..so why do we still use cds instead of dvds..like i do not if the new pioneers can play dvds but that would be a logical step i think..greez
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 21:52
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
87
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2822
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 22:06
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Well thats true..but i mean why do people still release just in 16 bit resolution..well i know cause it supposed to be on cd..but there should be the step to be able to play dvds in such players..and then maybe a 24bit version of any releases online or something like that..would be nice thing..
and djing with ableton?well its nice to use the fx like filter delays and stuff like that..but i don`t like the idea to warp every track in my collection just to be able to play them with live..and then..if its warped,live does fit the tempo automatically..and you just have to play the next track at the right time isn`t it?
so thats not really djin in my opinion..
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
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676
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 22:28
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I have to tell you that Ableton is the most powerful DJ instrument, it is true that you have to warp, but that is for your own ability to sit all in time and to mix and remix on the fly.
The ultimate DJing tool.
All you need is a good soundcard with 4 outputs.
I got Kontrol1 by Native Instruments and works great remixing and re arranging is the strongest part.
And once you got the CUE practicing going on, you can Cue a whole track in seconds. www.myspace.com/enertopiapsy |
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
87
Posts :
2822
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 22:37
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Sure yes..live is extremly powerful and really awsome..but i even like it to adjust the tempo manually..both got its benefits i think..
like almost everybody could make good dj sets with live but not everybody can do on Turn Tables or cd players..
but well..if that is not the point..you can do great remixing and rearranging with loops and such things..could be more creative..for sure.. -------......-------...-..-..-..-.-.-.-.- |
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full_on
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
279
Posts :
5475
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 22:44
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I'm with Mtz Mtzz. Of course, I can use Ableton, but don't tell me you're a DJ if you can't beatmatch and mix on CDJs and mixer.
Respect!
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...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
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...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell... |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jan 18, 2008 22:55
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Quote:
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On 2008-01-18 20:24, mubali wrote:
when I play live, I notice a sound differential when playing 16 vs 24 or even 32...
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32? 32 bit audio doesn't have more resolution than 24 bits.
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I did a blind taste test with a couple of non-producer friends and they actually agreed that they enjoyed the higher bit depth more than the cd quality.
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You must have been giving them hints about which format you where playing (consciously or not). Or maybe something went wrong when converting to 16 bit.
Unless the volume of your audio is very low (let's say -40 dB FS or something like that) 16 bit is more than enough for playback purposes.
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Also, why would mastering engineers ask for the tracks in 24 bit or higher if they were going to convert it to 16 for putting it on a cd? |
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Because the audio is still going to be processed. I specifically talked about playback of the final track.
UnderTow |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jan 19, 2008 00:02
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On 2008-01-18 22:44, full_on wrote:
I'm with Mtz Mtzz. Of course, I can use Ableton, but don't tell me you're a DJ if you can't beatmatch and mix on CDJs and mixer.
Respect!
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Definetly, if you don't know how to beatmatch, you are not a DJ, it's recommended to know and to practice beatmatching in the best way possible.
Personally, I got and use for that purpose Pioneer CDJ100's that I love very much.
www.myspace.com/enertopiapsy |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
101
Posts :
3239
Posted : Jan 19, 2008 00:27
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a 24bit "feels" like an unfinished product. the 16bit thingy seals it well
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Jan 19, 2008 01:03
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undertow, the blind taste test consisted of me playing 24, and 16 bits mastered and not mentioning which was which. As for no difference between the formats, why again do the sequencers themselves work internally at 32 bit floating point? From a completely logical perspective, why would the file sizes be different? It's fine if you feel the difference is negligable, I feel the opposite. We again agree to disagree...
I do agree that 16bit is fine for cd, since that's the format that is the standard for all players. However I do not feel that 16 bit fully captures some of the nuances that 24 or 32 can. When I play live, I prefer to use 24 or 32 bit fully mastered tracks and other people I have played with have noticed the difference when I switch to a 16bit master extracted from a cd. When I dj, I use cds or pretty soon I'll be using Torq. there I could play mastered files at 24 or 32 if I felt so inclined. I like the feel of using the physical medium and of manually adjusting the pitch. Of course this is cause I started out djing vinyl.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 19, 2008 02:37
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Quote:
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On 2008-01-19 01:03, mubali wrote:
undertow, the blind taste test consisted of me playing 24, and 16 bits mastered and not mentioning which was which.
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How do you switch between the 16 and 24 bit files? If it is not instantaneous it is pretty much a meaningless test. (By that I mean the exact same signal being switched from 24 to 16 bit on the fly).
Look up double blind testing and the reasons for doing it that way. And look up ABX testing and the reasons for that.
Also read this: http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
Also most modern converters will have a dynamic range of about 110 dB. That is less than 18 bits of dynamic range. On a typical PA system the noise floor will be way above that -110 dB mark. Probably quite a bit above -96 dB (the dynamic range of 16 bits).
In other words, the difference between 16 and 24 bits will be completely lost under the noise floor of the playback system.
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As for no difference between the formats, why again do the sequencers themselves work internally at 32 bit floating point?
From a completely logical perspective, why would the file sizes be different? It's fine if you feel the difference is negligable, I feel the opposite.
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The choice was not based on sound quality. 32 bit is a floating point format. Modern CPUs are much much faster at doing floating point calculations compared to fixed point calculation. Running at 32 bit is _faster_ than running at 24 bits! Disk space is cheap. Processing speed still isn't quite and certainly wasn't when modern computer based DAWs started.
This also brings the added benefit of a huge dynamic range. This is great for processing and gain staging in digital mixers and plugins.
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We again agree to disagree...
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Not a chance. I won't let lack of knowledge and the placebo effect get in the way of good science.
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I do agree that 16bit is fine for cd, since that's the format that is the standard for all players. However I do not feel that 16 bit fully captures some of the nuances that 24 or 32 can.
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The ONLY difference is dynamic range. The dynamic range gained is utterly immaterial with modern compressed/limited music.
Anyway, you have never heard 32 bit audio. The signal will be truncated to 24 bits (and hopefully properly dithered) before it reaches your audio interface.
UnderTow |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Jan 19, 2008 06:11
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On 2008-01-18 22:44, full_on wrote:
I'm with Mtz Mtzz. Of course, I can use Ableton, but don't tell me you're a DJ if you can't beatmatch and mix on CDJs and mixer.
Respect!
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he he psyjokes
where did my vinyl disapear
anywayz i will tell this : anyone that have the vision of mixing and the tool to make us listen to what on his mind as well to change it acording to the dancefloor is great dj , wheather its on ableton cdj or couple of usb disks as far i care...
the only issue i have is that i hear ableton sound quality right after winamp and it sound worse. if anyone can help fix that i will sort my live act fully finnaly (no HQ tips please , it still sux , tried last the 6 tho.. is 7 any better?)
on the topic , 24 bit is great for live acts and the one small benefit with todays spacebar live , but normal audience dont need it as long the standart is not DVDA www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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