| Author
|
Is there any demand for 24-bit WAV files?
|
OhmLine
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
137
Posted : Jan 20, 2008 20:45
|
Hmm.
Let's ignore the UnderTone  of your previous message. Are you saying that we have reached to the top of our ears limit in terms of program reproduction and there's no need whatsoever to use more than 16bit and 44100Hz for playback ?
Also, I got my sound education in uni, not internet forums, so unless proved differently with something more convincing I think I'll stick to what I know.
Peace.
  YEEEEES! |
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 20, 2008 21:15
|
I'm sorry to say but if your education taught you what you posted, the knowledge of your teacher is questionable at best. (Or you were not paying attention).
The link that Trip posted is to a document written by Dan Lavry. Dan Lavry makes some of the very best converters in the world and I can guarantee you that he knows ALOT about this stuff. At a guess, ALOT more than any of your teachers.
You can ignore what I write simply because it doesn't fit with what you WANT to believe (or your teachers want to believe) but you would do much better to read it and see the actual logic in what I write and the arguments I present.
If you follow the link to the "Truth in Metering" thread you will find that Paul Frindle has joined in. In case you didn't know, he is the designer of the Sony Oxford console and the Sony Oxford plugins. Again, this is someone that probably knows ALOT more than any of your teachers.
Have we reached the limits of modern converters? Probably not but the area in which improvements need to be made is in the clocking, analogue circuitry, filter design and power supply design. Not just stupidly increasing sampling rates. That does not benefit anyone.
Can 88.2 or 96 Khz benefit over 44.1Khz? Sure. But you will find that the better the converters, the less benefit you have! With cheap converters, the difference could well be extremely obvious. With the best converters available you will be hard pressed to hear any difference at all.
Does 192 Khz make any sense? NO! The limitations in current converters (beside the aspects I mention above) are mainly the anti-imaging filters. The steeper they get, the harder they are to design properly. That is why we can benefit by going to 96 or 88.2 Khz.
An ideal sample rate would be around 60-64 Khz. This would give a steepness in the anti-imaging filters that is more or less equivalent to the natural high-end roll-off of air! Have you ever heard anyone complain about the sound of air? 
Anyway, if this is for making electronic music, increasing the sample rate above 44.1Khz really is just ego masturbation. Let's not completely loose perspective here.
UnderTow
|
|
|
|
MercuryFall
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
52
Posts :
711
Posted : Jan 20, 2008 22:24
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-01-18 21:21, Mtz Mtzz wrote:
i agree with mubali..and even wonder why cd is still so popular..i mean..a dvd can go up to 24 bit 96khz in stereo..so why do we still use cds instead of dvds..like i do not if the new pioneers can play dvds but that would be a logical step i think..greez
|
|
+1!!! |
|
|
|
OhmLine
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
137
Posted : Jan 20, 2008 23:24
|
UnderTow.
My point was that higher sampling rate will allow us to draw high frequencies in greater detail (more sampling points per cycle). The disagreement was whether it'll make it sound better or not.
I see your point. I've read the Lavry Document and I'll look deeper into the thread you've posted.
All the best
YEEEEES! |
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 21, 2008 00:05
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-01-20 23:24, OhmLine wrote:
UnderTow.
My point was that higher sampling rate will allow us to draw high frequencies in greater detail (more sampling points per cycle).
|
|
And my point is that this is not true.
Quote:
|
All the best
|
|
You too!
UnderTow |
|
|
|
Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Jan 21, 2008 00:32
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-01-20 22:24, MercuryFall wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2008-01-18 21:21, Mtz Mtzz wrote:
i agree with mubali..and even wonder why cd is still so popular..i mean..a dvd can go up to 24 bit 96khz in stereo..so why do we still use cds instead of dvds..like i do not if the new pioneers can play dvds but that would be a logical step i think..greez
|
|
+1!!!
|
|
You wonder why the CD is so popular still?
I think you'll find that the general public simply isn't demanding. They prefer simplicity over quality and if a new format looks (physically) the same as a CD, and offers no determinable sound difference on their crappy home hi-fi or after it gets mangled by compression to ipod friendly format, they won't buy into it.
Quality sometimes never even matters with formats..
VHS vs Betamax - Betamax superior picture, VHS better marketing.
CD wins over Cassette - because it really was a huge step forward. CD's don't need rewinding, better sound, and they were marketed as indestructible.
To the layperson higher quality DVD-A vs CD.. whats the point, CDs sound fine. Besides, everything these days is squashed into oblivion, so what's the point of an increased dynamic range.
DJ's playing DVD's.. I think you'll find that thats for video playback. Or putting lots more MP3's on a disc. If it IS for DVD music playback, you'll never hear the difference in a club. |
|
|
|
Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
87
Posts :
2822
Posted : Jan 21, 2008 00:38
|
well..sure..but i just wonder why it is still so popular in the scene..like it just would be nice do get the chance to buy the released stuff even in dvd standard via online selling or something..and that pioneers still cannot handle dvd just as further option..
thats all..
-------......-------...-..-..-..-.-.-.-.- |
|
|
|
Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Jan 21, 2008 01:42
|
You don't understand why CDs are so popular in the scene? You mean, Dj/club scene?
Well, aside from the fact that almost 100% of all dance music is released on CDs. I don't think if there were to be a format revolution to DVD-A, any electronic music would benefit from the increased sample rate/bit depth. I make all my tunes at 48/24 but I can't hear the difference when they export at 44/16, most people probably make their music at only CD quality anyway. |
|
|
|
Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
312
Posts :
8646
Posted : Jan 21, 2008 15:49
|
|
Nyquist would turn in his grave if he was reading this. I think that if there some fields where we need an improvement is better pa speakers and more efficient amp design. I'd personally prefer a better stereo imaging in clubs than higher possible dynamic range. I think some people here should take off their white lab uniform and step into clubs and outdoors from the crowd's perspective. Nobody there needs 24 bit playback and 192 KHz sample rate. Everybody who knows a bit AD/DAs should know that frequency generator's stability is what separates a good converter from a less good.
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
|
|
|
OhmLine
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
137
Posted : Jan 22, 2008 12:39
|
Dear UnderTow and Trip.
It seems like I was wrong and you were right.
44.1 is indeed enough to recreate the original wave.
Mr. Nyquist can rest in his grave again.
YEEEEES! |
|
|
|
Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Jan 22, 2008 12:59
|
Spoken like a true gentleman.
|
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 22, 2008 13:35
|
Excellent OhmLine!
Tomos, agreed.
UnderTow |
|
|
|
makus
Overdream
Started Topics :
82
Posts :
3087
Posted : Jan 22, 2008 15:17
|
|
Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jan 23, 2008 03:49
|
Like Pavel I also prefer better stereo imaging, and lately 5.1 ! While it is true that in Psy 16bit 41100 hz is enough,
in the movie industry where you have a huge dynamic range however it does make an audible difference.
As far as sampling rate is concerned, I really don't want to go into that, merely to escape Undertows wrath...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
|
|
|
Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
312
Posts :
8646
Posted : Jan 24, 2008 06:49
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-01-23 03:49, Upavas wrote:
As far as sampling rate is concerned, I really don't want to go into that, merely to escape Undertows wrath...
|
|
Before the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet to see if Undertow is not there
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
|
|
|
