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DJ who goes in red in the mixer...

Showcase


Started Topics :  0
Posts :  6
Posted : Feb 1, 2008 02:32
Quote:

On 2008-01-31 13:43, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:

On 2008-01-31 07:23, Showcase wrote:

If a DJ is pushing these levels into the red, there are a few reasons for it:
1. DJ Console does not put out enough output. (Common with Pioneer Mixers)
2. PA is not powerful enough for the event. (In which case the promoter/organiser needs a slap across the head for being a tight ass!)
3. Limiter has not been set up correctly. Not enough headroom has been allowed for and there is no dynamic range.





This is all true in theory but as acidkills points out, some DJs are just deaf and stupid.

I remember at the second Samothraki festival one of the well known DJs was clipping the DJ mixer on the main stage. Every kick drum went crack crack crack. The FOH engineer just kept turning the volume down so as not to destroy the great 80.000 Watts PA system.

At some point the volume was so low you could have a conversation at normal talking level right in the middle of the main dance floor. I glanced up at the FOH engineer with a questioning look. He just pointed at the DJ and shrugged. What can you do?

Of course the DJ should have been kicked off the stage, not paid and never booked again but I guess friend's politics got in the way.

UnderTow



Being a DJ and a Sound Engineer myself I can understand the position we are put in. Need enough level to keep the floor full, but clipping/distorsion is the path to Hardstyle

You guy's are right it all comes back to the DJ. The system's limitation dictates the maximum sound level which can be acheived and it's the DJ's responsibilty to work with this.           It's the bizzo.
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Feb 1, 2008 07:26
Quote:

On 2008-02-01 02:32, Showcase wrote:

Being a DJ and a Sound Engineer myself I can understand the position we are put in. Need enough level to keep the floor full, but clipping/distorsion is the path to Hardstyle

You guy's are right it all comes back to the DJ. The system's limitation dictates the maximum sound level which can be acheived and it's the DJ's responsibilty to work with this.



Yeah but on a 80 KW sound system, there is absolutely no excuse to clip the DJ mixer.

When KoxBox played on that system later in the week, the volume was so loud I had to put my ear plugs in while standing on the beach (which was as far as you could go from the speakers without going of to the side). So the PA could definitely deliver enough volume without distorting. (Even too much when KoxBox where playing).

UnderTow
makus
Overdream

Started Topics :  82
Posts :  3087
Posted : Feb 5, 2008 19:07
omg, clips on 80 KW.. that sucks.           
www.overdreamstudio.com
The Journey Man Project
Inactive User

Started Topics :  128
Posts :  931
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 06:33
yeah well Mr Alien Project blew out the entire low ends of a big sound system during his live set here in Oz a few years back... but I hate any distortion in my mixes so I always tweak the levels to keep it under... music quality first for me, corwd is a close second... but as I've alway beleived from playing in a metal band to dj;ing... if you don't like what I"m playing or how it sounds, then you can f*ck off and find something you like elsewhere!           --- Love In Light, Dance In Darkness ---

My CD's - www.discogs.com/collection?user=liquidcream
Upavas
Upavas

Started Topics :  150
Posts :  3315
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 06:44
Clipping on an 80kwatt system is simply ridiculous, no matter what location.

A lot of times (and Undertow and I agree to disagree here) dj's use mp3's instead of wav files. Because of the way mp3's are compressed the overall amplitude is perceived as less loud by the human ear. Thus some dj's have to clip to keep the overall perceived loudness that another live act or dj who uses wav played before or after...           Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/
Upavas
Upavas

Started Topics :  150
Posts :  3315
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 06:51
Which is by no means an excuse !!!           Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/
subconsciousmind
SCM

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  1033
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 16:03


But don't you know? You can make bad music better by going into the red!!

Once its distorted and incredibly loud the listener has to imagine how it would actually sound and since our imagination is a great tool the music becomes inevitebly better in our minds, than it really is..!

Seriously.. I hate it when DJs AND LiveActs! do that. But as undertows story showed. Its hard to make DJs understand...

Why are mixers setup so that they can overload with line levels in the first place??

But for LiveActs defense... we don't see the mixer all the time.. so it can happen without wanting it.           Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 16:14
Quote:

On 2008-02-06 16:03, subconsciousmind wrote:
Why are mixers setup so that they can overload with line levels in the first place??



Mixers would need to be built with enough headroom to take a full level signal + whatever the input gain is set at + all the possible gain from having all EQs turned up and then the gain from the master output.

It is possible to build such a mixer but why would anyone want to do that when the real problem is DJs not paying attention to their levels? There are even little red lights to warn the deaf DJs.

Anyway, if there was such a mixer, as it has to take into account the maximum output modulation going into the next piece of equipment, people would complain that the levels are much too low for any normal signals...

UnderTow
EYB
Noized

Started Topics :  111
Posts :  2849
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 16:31
can u push a mixer to hard or does they all have a built in limiter to prevent destroying anything?            Signature
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 17:11
Quote:

On 2008-02-06 16:31, EYB wrote:
can u push a mixer to hard or does they all have a built in limiter to prevent destroying anything?



You mean physically break? I doubt it. But that gives me an idea. I'm going to print one of those Dymo labels to stick on the mixer:

"FUSE WILL BURN if pushed into the RED! There is NO REPLACEMENT FUSE! This means NO MORE MUSIC! DJ IS RESPONSIBLE for DAMAGES!".

UnderTow

EYB
Noized

Started Topics :  111
Posts :  2849
Posted : Feb 6, 2008 17:52
hehe, but i am sure lot of djs wouldn't care about this sticker and would push it more and more while playing..            Signature
Upavas
Upavas

Started Topics :  150
Posts :  3315
Posted : Feb 7, 2008 02:31
I really liked Undertows second story, simple solution, some heads need a stronger hammer I guess.

And imo his solution works the best, just crank up the dj monitors, and if they break anything, make them pay!           Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/
olowanpi
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  35
Posts :  224
Posted : Jan 29, 2009 08:09
the typical dj mistake
is that every time they switch to a new track they put the volume higher and end up being fully in the red and most of the dj never set foot on the dancefloor while playing
i always go and check out if i can
how it sounds on the floor.

also in my oppinion the pioneer mixer is not made to play in red some mixer you can do that
but pioneer needs the greenlight
that why its red and green

also when you start to make music you realise you dont want to peak signals over the 0 level same thing with mixing
try to maintain 0 level and it always sounds good

thats why i say go and listen if you think you need more power on the floor talk to the sound guy dont just turn it up on the mixer
people will appreciate it they dotn coem to hear distorted sound they wanna hear the best they can or what the soundsystem can pump out            DROPOUT PRODUCTIONS
damon
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  88
Posts :  2122
Posted : Feb 1, 2009 22:00
Same thing with headphones volume level lol.           http://www.chillumafia.com
vaxination


Started Topics :  2
Posts :  262
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 08:45
having ran sound myself..

I hate djs that cant keep their shit together.

dont crank your gains and dont redline the rig.

if I know the DJ is likely to do it, I'll keep active on front of house and trim it back so he doesnt damage the system. likewise if I know they know what they are doing I'll give them more volume.

bottomline is, once you start redlining it sounds like shit. alot of the psy kids are audiophiles and understand this, but some are still wanna be rock stars that just have to crank it to 11.

really. I dont think it helps your floor at all. I've had plenty of times when I've trimmed back a mix of some DJ who had the gains pumped and suddenly the floor filled out. with all the whitenoisy kind of synth lines in dark these days having your highs cranked just makes people go deaf. if you trim it back, they respond favoribly..


but hey thats just my 2 cents.

I usually run it with 1 or 2 yellows on a djm 800 with no problems, you start hitting the reds though and it sounds like crap. pioneer ideally are run in green though yellow doesnt phase them, but I've heard stories of mixers that were ran in the red constantly that just died (mind you after months of this)

I usually soundcheck it with one on the red and trim it back so there isnt a whole lot of room for the DJ to go, it just saves me from having to crank it that much farther back later.. and that way if I get a dj that isnt gain jumping all the time I can give him more volume.

I think the most important thing is to have clean uncompressed sound at a level that is too loud to talk but not so loud that your ears are ringing for days. I tend to go out and check my mix when I DJ, usually early on, to see where my levels are at so I can keep on it and make sure it sounds how I want.

alot of djs will say thats amateur but I saw simon posford do it at a show this year.. and repromand the sound guys for doing a shit job when he did. hahah the wall of sound sounded way better after that too           .:.vaxination.:.
vaxination@gmail.com
esoteric generation/beatnik productions
Trance Forum  Forum  DJing - DJ who goes in red in the mixer...
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