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Beatmatch
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spliffnik
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
53
Posts :
663
Posted : Apr 9, 2004 12:15
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right, harmonic mixing severely limits your options- unless you own all trance cds ever made, dont bother with it. (even with all the music in the world it would still be limiting!)
BTW- Jikkenteki said -It is a useful skill to be able to determine a track's key
You can actually do this??! I mean sometimes I am close or I can guess it, but if you can do this consistently, this is not a 'Skill', but a God-given gift man!
-bOOm-
spliffnik
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 10, 2004 00:28
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Nah, its just a skill in training your eyes. I have been a musician for 15 years and I tend to play my guitar along with tracks when I am bored or surfing the net so if I am sitting in my studio I can figure out the key of a track probably with in 5 seconds.
I don't have what most musicians call "perfect pitch", which is the ability to simply "know" the pitch/key from hearing it (although again it is a skill one can develop). If I am in the middle of a gig spinning records that are pitched to some degree or another, then, no, I won't be able to tell you the key just by ear (if they are pitched they are probably actually floating somewhere between notes anyways). However I can tell instantly if two tracks are in the same key or how harmonically related they might be (i.e. if they will sound good together or sound like crap). Its really not that hard if you've played an instrument for any amount of time.
Often having a mix with dissonant keys can be even be a good mixing technique as it gives a "tension... release" feel to your mix. That said, all the theory just explains "why", your ears are real judge of whether it works or not, so focus on those (and wear earplugs too if you want any sort of long time career...  )
 New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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marc_and_jason
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
145
Posted : Apr 10, 2004 00:32
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Does anyone use DSS CDJ?What format can U mix on it?Only WAV. files?Or also MP3?What is the best way to structure a play-list? |
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spliffnik
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
53
Posts :
663
Posted : Apr 10, 2004 06:47
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the topic is beatmatch. please keep it on topic, I like this thread and dont want it to get locked. |
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simius m
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
48
Posted : Apr 10, 2004 22:45
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-10 06:47, spliffnik wrote:
the topic is beatmatch. please keep it on topic, I like this thread and dont want it to get locked.
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Ok Spliffnik i'm sorry i'm leaving harmonic mixing. Jikkenteki was right i was almost becoming a slave of keys. It's OFF. THE END
I'll be waiting for more beatmatching tips.
One track 140 bpm next 145. What's better 140 with +3.5 and 145 with 0.0 or 140 with +2.1 and 145 with -1.4?
P.S. Thank's to all the people who answered me with the harmo...c mixing stuff. Really thank's.
2 MINUTE CLIMAX TRANCE!!! |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Apr 11, 2004 00:01
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Beat the match for real match beating eating greating matching patching...
 Signature |
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spliffnik
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
53
Posts :
663
Posted : Apr 11, 2004 07:31
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One track 140 bpm next 145. What's better 140 with +3.5 and 145 with 0.0 or 140 with +2.1 and 145 with -1.4?
Well one is going to play the traks at 145 and the other is going to play it at 143. So it just depends what speed you want to play. Use the master tempo, it keeps the key when you change the speed of the tracks.
Also- just found this out recently, but did you guys know if you hold the master tempo button down on Pioneer CDJs, it will change the scale from 10.0 to 16.0? Good for mixing tracks that have a big difference in BPM- although I never do this at a party. Just thought it was a cool function.
-bOOm-
spliffnik |
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zooter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
44
Posts :
771
Posted : Apr 12, 2004 07:03
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one more question, is it ok to play any track & adjust the tempo to the currently playing track or is it always better to find a track which has a bpm as close as possible to the one playing (if you know the bpms or have writtent them down)? |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 12, 2004 07:52
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It all depends. I am a bit weird and old school in my apporach to mixes and I feel that bpms SHOULD change during a good set set a few times (I liken a set at one bpm to watching a 2 hour action movie that is just one big long fight scene with no change in the dynamics of the film the whole way through... might be ok occassionaly, but more often than not will be boring).
With CDs is ts not such an issue since you can just increase the bpms without adjusting the pitch, but with vinyl you generaly didn't want to get too radical of a bpm shift between to tracks or one might end up sounding a bit "chipmunked" (highpitched if you don't know the Chipmunks).
If you were using older cdj decks, sometimes the audio would get a bit weird if you spend a track up too much, but that isn't really a problem on most of todays pioneer decks. That said, one thing I often do if I feel the difference between to tracks is too great, or I want to shift the bmps of the set some, is to ride the slider of the record/cd that is on very very slowly so that the track is slowly getting faster or slower, but not so fast that the ear notices it. Again, with cdjs its not quiet as big of an issue as the pitch doesn't increase and the ear hears changes in pitch faster than it does volume or tempo. Breaks are a good place to do more radical changes on the "on" track if you play with that sort of thing, but then a lot of DJs equate djing with beatmatching, so I am probably in the minority to recomending such things... As in all things, try it, if it works for you, use it, if not, throw it out.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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spliffnik
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
53
Posts :
663
Posted : Apr 12, 2004 09:04
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I agree with Jikkenteki, changing BPM definitely helps make the set more dynamic. Sometimes my sets the BPM will change 10 plus from beginnning to end. Nice way to add to the energy level.
BTW Zooter, never worry about 'what is okay'- there is no right and wrong, just what you like. Chances are if you really think it is cool, others will too. Be original brother!
But you have limitations too, you wont be able to beatmatch a 70 BPM downtempo track to a 148 BPM Psychotic Micro track (or if you can, please let me hear it!), and for the beginners it is definitely easier to use tracks with similar BPM.
-bOOm-
spliffnik
oh and I used the -16.0 function just last night and worked great! Funny how just a few days ago I said I never do this.  |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 12, 2004 10:27
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Chi
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
312
Posted : Apr 12, 2004 14:17
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Actually harmonic mixing is a very powerful tool.
It can give the indication of whether a track will work with another, although that may not be 100% correct (there's more to it than mixing in certain scales).
The pitch change can be calculated, +-5,6% is one semitone up/down.
But this is the most complicated dj skill to learn. It takes a few years to master, and you'll never master it completely without musical training and theory.
While it is true that you'll become a "slave to the keys", this can be avoided by experimentation. Mixing in key is mixing in the same key or the perfect fourth or fifth in the same scale. But you can change scales by mixing a C into a C# for example - however, this is only for tracks with percussion and not much more going on.
Many times you can get away by mixing into the second and sixth. So being a "slave to the keys" is not a bad thing, if you still experiment a lot. Doing some off-scale mixes is not a bad thing to, as long as they are quick.
One thing though - i don't trust pitch circuits. I've tried many cd players, from low end to high end, and none has a reliable pitch circuit. Most of them start distorting at 3%, and at 4% the distortion is immense. |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 12, 2004 23:49
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-12 14:17, Chi wrote:
Actually harmonic mixing is a very powerful tool.
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I agree with the statement that its a very powerful tool, but I would still point out that it is just one of many tools and in my opinion, only an intermediate level skill musically at best and most definately not the most complicated DJ skill because the end results are simple common sense to the listener ("Gee these two tracks sounded good when mixed together").
If you will allow me to digress for a moment here, one of the better lessons I learned in jazz studies was that there are three major factors in how a good memorable piece of music is constructed. They are in order of importance rhythm (obvious), interval (that the notes move up and down), and exact pitch (how exactly the intervals change within a scale). You can take any piece of well know music and just place the proper rhythm and move the intervals up and down correctly (not playing the exact notes, just randomly moving up when you should and down when you should) and people will be able to recognize it. Of the three exact pitch (all the issue relating to key) is actually the least important.
This applies to DJing just as well as it does to making music in that if two piece of music work well rythmically and interval-wise, the actual pitch (staying in key) isn't nessecarily all that important. Obviously having the tracks match key-wise is good as well, but its not as important as some people might make it out to be. If you want proof go listen to the hundreds of DJs out there who have no clue about keys, but make excellent mixes based purely on intuitive rhythmic and interval skill. Even two tracks that are the exact same key can sound like crap during a mix if they don't fit well rhthmically and interval wise, not to mention even keywise due to modal issues (made more complex by the fact that a lot of psy trance can be very atonal).
Learning scales can be a helpful tool and mixing at perfect 5ths, major or minor thirds, etc can and does sound good when done properly. But again any formally trained musician will tell you that when it comes to making and performing music, scales should be the last thing in your mind. For pure djs (i.e. people who spin, but don't create music on their own) the amount of time needed to learn and internalize the theory it is so large and the results so small (that two tracks work together, something your ears can tell you in 2 seconds) that it hardly seems worth the effort (especially since the chances of you being able to really internalize this sort of theory to the point that you don't need to think about it pretty much requires that you learn to play and instrument). In the time it would take for the average DJ to sit down, figure out the key of a track, figure out what intervals would be good and then cross reference it against other tracks that might work, an unformally trained but skilled DJ would more likely have intuitively found just as many, if not more tracks that it works with simply by just comparing it to to other tracks.
Don't get me wrong, I feel the process of learning harmonic mixing is an excellent process for someone who wants to learn more about musical theory and all, but I think it is also a process that any serious musician will abandon eventually as the lessons you learn from it are really just basic hearing common sense.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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Chi
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
312
Posted : Apr 13, 2004 03:47
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Well i'm a musical idiot, so i can't argue with you on musical theory.
However harmonic mixing is a poweful tool for me and people like me, ie, people with no musical traning whatsoever. With it, i'm now able to spot nasty key clashes - something which i could't do before mixing harmonically.
I agree with you that it is a very difficult and long process to learn how to key a track and with little reward. But i think that in the long run it will compensate to know the rules of the harmonic mix. And as you said, a serious musician will eventually abandon the rules and follow its ear - remember rules are made to be broken, you don't always have to follow them.
BTW, what do you mean by intervals , fitting interval-wise, etc? I'm sorry, i'm a musical idiot |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 13, 2004 07:08
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I probably sounded like I was against harmonic mixing above, my actually intent though was just to warn against basing ones entire set on it. Probably the best way I can sum that up is that certain situations call for certain tracks, not certains keys. Anyways, I do think the learning process of learning harmonic mixing is a valuable one so if one is serious about becoming a good dj its is definately a good study on one aspect of how tracks can work together. Basically I think knowing more about how music works is always a good thing (provided you don't become a slave to it of course).
As for interval, one definition could be "the distance between notes" (for example E to B is an interval of a perfect 5th). However in the context of the "rhythm. interval, pitch" discussion above it simply refers to the general raising and lowering of notes in the vague sense (for example "note goes up a little, down a little, then up a lot higher, down again" and to specific "notes"). Probably the easiest way to think of "interval" in the sense of the discussion above is to think of congas. You have your main conga drum you base the pattern on and then hit higher or lower pitched ones at certain points to make the pattern more interesting. The exact pitch of the congas isn't as important as the simple fact that the pitch is just going up or down (i.e. the interval is changing). For mixing and two tracks "fitting interval-wise" this just means that the two tracks work together to make an interesting "rhythmic up and down of notes". Obviously if all the notes going up and down are all in the same key, all the better, but as any DJ will tell you, as long as it is interesting and sounds good, being exactly in key isn't always a huge issue.
As for beat matching... um.... yeah, try to get to smooth and not make any of that experimental European galloping trance. 
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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