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Beatmatch
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Apr 14, 2004 13:33
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@Jikkenteki & Chi
this has become a very interesting thread here.
isnt it true that the most CD-players are only able to 'pitch' the tunes, which causes slowing down/accelerating up the track but also causes a harmonic-key change ?
this means that on a usual party with a usual CD-player the dj has only a choice between changing the trackspeed to BPM(x) which will effect the harmonics(y) too. or changing y which will effect x also.
to realize the things you talk about you need a cd player which includes the functions: 'timestretch' (changing the speed with holding constant key)
and 'pitchshift' (with holding konstant speed.)
just a few cd players got thoose functions, isnt it?
doesnt make this technical boundarys this discussion useless ?
(said a little bit provocating  )
anyway: Im no DJ (only a few partys per years djing) |
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nobody4
Inactive User
Started Topics :
21
Posts :
358
Posted : Apr 14, 2004 14:11
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I think that most of you are concentrating on a simple issue (beatmatching) and forgetting an important one: Mixer and Mixing.
Mixerwork is IMO a very important technique that is being neglected by most. Meaning - ok, you got the trax matching and running, but how do you introduce the change between them? Simply shift the channels sliders? close the EQ bands of the incomming channel and make the mix using only EQ bands?
Beatmatching is easy, and is getting easier as technology advances. but mixerwork cannot be replaced by technology, and as I've found out, its not just a matter of switching between High > Mid > Bass. some tunes are best mixed opposite (first introduce the bass, then highs and only last with the Mids). Its much more delicate work and requires a real knowledge of each and every track.
bonus tip:
in the Pioneer CDJ-100 (silver), you can outmix a track by using the 'WAH' option. it functions like a frequency cut for the lows/mids, and its similar to knobbing out the bass/mid freqs. try it out, its real fun when you dont have to concentrate on 2 knobs, only on the jog...
cheers,
A
 auspexx@compact-records.com |
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Chi
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
312
Posted : Apr 14, 2004 15:05
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-14 13:33, Kitnam wrote:
@Jikkenteki & Chi
this has become a very interesting thread here.
isnt it true that the most CD-players are only able to 'pitch' the tunes, which causes slowing down/accelerating up the track but also causes a harmonic-key change ?
this means that on a usual party with a usual CD-player the dj has only a choice between changing the trackspeed to BPM(x) which will effect the harmonics(y) too. or changing y which will effect x also.
to realize the things you talk about you need a cd player which includes the functions: 'timestretch' (changing the speed with holding constant key)
and 'pitchshift' (with holding konstant speed.)
just a few cd players got thoose functions, isnt it?
doesnt make this technical boundarys this discussion useless ?
(said a little bit provocating )
anyway: Im no DJ (only a few partys per years djing)
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Most cd players (from Pio CDJ100S up) have some sort of pitch circuits. Heck, even turntables have them now.
Well, honestly, those pitch circuits don't work. Once you get past 4%, the music is distorted. On some players the flutter is too high, on others theres a double beat(!) and some others just don't work.
This is also true for turntables with pitch circuits.
There is only one simple way to change the pitch of the track you want to change - load it into soundforge, change the pitch there without changing the tempo and then burn it on a cd to play.
But as i said before, this pitch change can be calculated. A semitone up is aproximately 5.6%, and in order to achieve a correct harmonic mix the pitch has to be not more than 2% apart the original speed, which means you have to mix a track within 0% and 2% (positive and negative, maintaining the original key) and 4.6%/7.5% (pos and neg, up or down a semitone from the original key). This must be the total difference between the tracks, not in the actual pitch slider.
Example: let's say you have a track in C which is 133 bpm and a track in C# which is 140 bpm. Usually C and C# don't combine (unless it's a quick mix of course). However, after beatmatching, the pitch differenence is around +4.9%. So this effectively means that the track in C is now a C#, due to a pitch change. The result - a harmonic mix, even with two tracks with such a large difference in bpm. |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 14, 2004 22:01
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Helen - I agree that mixer work is what makes or breaks the dj. Its just that that topic hadn't come up in this discussion and all so....
Kitnam - As Chi mentioned, most CDJ units today (including all the Pioneer models that are the mainstay of psy-djs) have some sort of function where you can raise/lower the bpm without affecting the pitch. In the past they were pretty bad as Chi mentioned, but they are improving. I personally come from the vinyl side of things, having only recently begun spinning with CDs. With the vinyl medium harmonic mixing isn't really readily done since the pitch of your records are getting changed all over the place and you can't see exact percentages and all. You can of course mixing "harmonically" with vinyl, but on wax is it a matter of using your ears and not applying a formula.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Apr 15, 2004 10:16
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i see. i have been thought that also the modern cd-players only pitch the tunes (because the fader is usually still called 'pitch'). i also agree with helens point to mention out the thing of EQ-mixing/fading which is very important - even if its offtopic, but we have to care about B also when we like to talk about A.
about the harmonic mixing i would like to add that i realy enjoy also disharmonic changes in a dj-set, specially hard and fast bassline-changes from one into another one which has a different key. and i realy can imagine that a dj who cares about harmonics is able to create outstanding atmospheres in the set. but the most importing thing is realy the beatmatching itself and the EQ-mixing (helen) and also the feeling for the party and the dancing crowd, the combination of the tracklist, i would like to call it the 'intuitive intelligence' the dj has. |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 15, 2004 11:43
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Good points Kitnam. To me, track selection is probably the most important thing. I would rather listen to a poor dj with great track selection than a flawless technical dj with no sense of what the floor needs. A few years back I was at a small club in Kyoto and watched one of Japan's supposedly most brillant DJs basically get shown up by a no name local who train wrecked a few mixes and wasn't that good skill-wise, but who just knew how to pick the perfect track over and over. This guy had the floor absolutely storming, then the big name, super skilled DJ came on, dropped one track and had the dance floor almost completely empty of people actually dancing for the first hour of his set.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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Borris
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
45
Posts :
1581
Posted : Apr 19, 2004 16:00
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Mixing Challenge.
Mix a 93 BPM track with a 142 BPM track with using no more then 2% pitch change on each track.
Kinetic Honda GmbH, Worldwide Supliers of Quality noise.
Progression Sessions of the 3rd Empire! |
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benjaminlee
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
7
Posted : Apr 20, 2004 09:03
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Hi all,
I am kind of new to the forum, so here goes...
...it can be done with vinyl when the 93 BPM track is recorded at 33.3 RPM and played at 45 RPM. No?
Another way to get a sense for whether the next track you are monitoring is slower or faster than the track being played live, is to ..... the same song again! Buy two recordings or burn another disc and play it again! With two of the same tracks it is possible to really 'feel' the sensitivity to adjustments in tempo.
In fact don't pretent that there is an audience at all. Stop everything. Set both tempo shuttles to +/- 0.0 BPM, bring both tracks to the beginning and start them off at the same time! Gently touch what ever controls to the tempo you have and listen for a phase, or chorus effect. it's great fun!
Thank you : - )
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Apr 20, 2004 20:47
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-19 16:00, Dr. Borris wrote:
Mixing Challenge.
Mix a 93 BPM track with a 142 BPM track with using no more then 2% pitch change on each track.
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Send me the tracks, I'll give it a try 
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spliffnik
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
53
Posts :
663
Posted : Apr 23, 2004 07:31
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so without changing the pitch too much, you just have to continually use the jog dial, right? I don't know what BPMs the tracks were, but I recently mixed a slow hallucinogen in dub to a penta track, and just turned the jog dial at the right pace, mixed in the snare and chill, then at the right moment after it was synchronized for a while, threw in the bass.
I don't know if this is what you were getting at, Dr. Borris, but I have a feeling you meant something else since you specified the numbers of BPM, so maybe some sort of mathematical thing? Please enlighten me.
-bOOm-
spliffnik |
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Pak-Man
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
15
Posts :
78
Posted : Apr 28, 2004 06:30
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Has anyone got any tips for mixer work? Dr. Borris?
Progressive, Full-on? Its all good <;} |
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zooter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
44
Posts :
771
Posted : Apr 28, 2004 07:26
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interesting thread....keep it alive! |
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Madpup
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
21
Posts :
174
Posted : Apr 28, 2004 14:47
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[/quote]
Most cd players (from Pio CDJ100S up) have some sort of pitch circuits. Heck, even turntables have them now.
Well, honestly, those pitch circuits don't work. Once you get past 4%, the music is distorted. On some players the flutter is too high, on others theres a double beat(!) and some others just don't work.
This is also true for turntables with pitch circuits.
There is only one simple way to change the pitch of the track you want to change - load it into soundforge, change the pitch there without changing the tempo and then burn it on a cd to play.
But as i said before, this pitch change can be calculated. A semitone up is aproximately 5.6%, and in order to achieve a correct harmonic mix the pitch has to be not more than 2% apart the original speed, which means you have to mix a track within 0% and 2% (positive and negative, maintaining the original key) and 4.6%/7.5% (pos and neg, up or down a semitone from the original key). This must be the total difference between the tracks, not in the actual pitch slider.
Example: let's say you have a track in C which is 133 bpm and a track in C# which is 140 bpm. Usually C and C# don't combine (unless it's a quick mix of course). However, after beatmatching, the pitch differenence is around +4.9%. So this effectively means that the track in C is now a C#, due to a pitch change. The result - a harmonic mix, even with two tracks with such a large difference in bpm.
[/quote]
A club trance DJ, showed me a method, which eliminates this problem. Simply get the key of each track at the same BPM ( i did at 140 bpm). That way you dont have to worry calculate key changes with the pitch, if the two tracks have the same key at 140 bpm, then it will be the same at 130, 135 bpm etc.
It is a great tool, but i found that i have become a slave to the keys, only mixing in key or in complementary key. Before i had the key classificatiom system, i had some tracks which sound perfect, when mixed into each other, however i found that they are in different keys and in theory should not sound good together. |
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Borris
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
45
Posts :
1581
Posted : Apr 28, 2004 22:24
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OOPS.
Mistake, i meant 103 BPM and 142 BPM.
Kinetic Honda GmbH, Worldwide Supliers of Quality noise.
Progression Sessions of the 3rd Empire! |
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benjaminlee
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
7
Posted : Apr 29, 2004 06:57
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So... Dr. Borris,
Did I solve the puzzle? I wasn't really paying attention to the math, but it is how 'ardcore first developed in the late 80's early 90's. DJ's would take rap instramentals and lay them over house music.
Anybody?
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