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As an artist...
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
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3803
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 14:47
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There are 2 kind of people. The ones who get this and the ones who don't. If you honestly think there's no difference there's absolutely no point to argue this further. Basicly if you don't get it you should move to N.Korea and enjoy the sharing, for then this society isn't really what you're after..
  "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Cane
Started Topics :
0
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47
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 14:48
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There is no difference if Joe or Metallica were robbed we don't speak about CDs sells now or illegal mp3 so do not change the topic to way you always do. Metallica did way thru that all psychedelic scene together didn't in their past so please a bit respect to them. Lars Ulrich has a right to demand his money for illegal product this has nothing to do with art and music at all, just strict rules. If we continue further then Metallica's CD should cost ten times more than regular psychedelic CD since there are much more quality, much more expensive equipment and much more proffesional effort. STFU, to piss off Lars Ulrich by downloading his CD and saying it's shite is nice coz Lars is reading this forum daily when he woke up and crying. CD sells have nothing to do with art. Just psychedelic music lost the a, r and t so it not worth to buy it as maybe whole music scene it became commercial which means money leads the music and not art as it should.
Travaller i would advise Joe to change profession or to learn to make better comercial music in order to pay rents. |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 14:57
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On 2005-02-23 14:48, Cane wrote:
Travaller i would advise Joe to change profession or to learn to make better comercial music in order to pay rents.
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And what would that lead us to. No more psytrance, is that what you want?
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Cane
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47
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:09
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It would remain always because dozen of artists doing art just less commercial scene would lead to more respect to real art nor commercial killa traxx. Just when label ( commercial organization is in charge of releases, the releases would be commercial since there is not point to keep loosy bussness). That's why Bigwigs are not a part of DS, because Peter and Son Kite guys were too busy with advertisment for their killa traxx album which do sometimes remind me gentle Astrix.
One more thing you should understand there is no disrespect in my words to commercial music i just wish the same quality for same prise. Son Kite CD has much more quality than some Utopia Records compilation when they prised the same (an example, not personal). |
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Fu Hsi
Perfect Stranger
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
235
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:18
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@ Spindrift, Pointy, EYB and all the rest that are concerned.
You got a serious mistake here.
When u take a phraze out of a letter and bend it wherever u want, it doesnt mean that the writer of the original letter meant it to go that way. When someone says X it is always coming with a certain context to Y. I believe even totally narrow minded person will understand that yeah.
So u take a phraze in which OTT goes and says that some artists are filthy rich and DONT FEEL THE MP3 PIRACY the way the small artists do, and gives examples to that. What u try to conclude from it and also show it in your arguments is totally different and perverted. Comon. Isn't it true?
Let's see together. Let's say 3000 ppl downloaded Madonna's album instead of buying it for sure yeah, I guess she wont even feel it - that is a fact that is all - not an invitation to rip her CD's. But let's say the same 3000 ppl will download my album, instead of buying it for sure - that is a death sentence for me.
Understood?
The twists u guys make to other ppl words make me feel u think we are morons or something like that. Well u r mistaken.
http://perfectlystrange.com |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:19
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Oh okay. Once all the people who actually make this music for work are gone the quality will go up cos we still have the guys around who make the music as a hobby on crappy hardware. Just like the finnish psytrance in general. Man it sounds so good! Okay granted it's a matter of taste but in my opinion most hobby based music sounds like a bad joke. Infact if you think like that why do you (assuming you do) (or someone else) download this evil commercial psytrance music in the first place?
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:28
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Ok thats enough now. Fu Hsi i tried to not reply here but i have to reply to make something clear.
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@ Spindrift, Pointy, EYB and all the rest that are concerned.
You got a serious mistake here.
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Where i am concerned here? Were make i a mistake here? The only replies till now were conversation with KemicAl about his three names in this forum. So please before u name me with Spindrift and Pointy or anyone else look into the thread if u really mean me. I am not concerned at all.
And this is for the whole reply u wrote.
And if i got u right it is ok to steal from the rich. So it is also ok to go to the biggest supermarket here and take what i want? No it is not if u concern about stealing at one side u can't say it is ok at the other side. Signature |
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Ott^
OTT
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
488
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:31
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On 2005-02-23 15:18, Fu Hsi wrote:
Let's see together. Let's say 3000 ppl downloaded Madonna's album instead of buying it for sure yeah, I guess she wont even feel it - that is a fact that is all - not an invitation to rip her CD's. But let's say the same 3000 ppl will download my album, instead of buying it for sure - that is a death sentence for me.
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Yes. Exactly. |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:41
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@Fu His
I quoted the whole bit where ott spoke about the subject.
And I said that to me sherlockaliens summing up was pretty much what I understood from it.
There was no twisting of words.
Without quoting the whole phrase, for the sake of being able to discuss, I must be able to sum up what I understood he was saying.
Go ahead and download metallica basically.
And thats obviously what we are discussing now, sop it seems like also you and traveller understood it in a similiar way.
It's of course up to your own moral how you stand on the issue.
My position is that if I would be genrerating millons from an album I would be more concerned with people ripping me off than if I get $500 for an album.
When it's small money like in the trance scene one can afford to give it away.
If I become a super star and known to millons of people and could not walk the street as a normal person I would not like if I would not be entitled to my millions.
But whichever way I don't belive in blaming the fans, like many artists I would be more concerned with the record industry way of handleing the problem.
Yesterday there was a poll on the website of the largest tabloid in sweden about downloading pirated music and film.
More than 80% think it is not wrong to do so.
You can think that they are all thifes, but if you read their arguments you will undertsand that it don't matter how you brand them.
The joe blog in sweden know how much the distibutors is taking.
They know they are already paying a fee for all the blank CD's they buy.
They know that the record companies is few and that they work together to keep the prices at the same level.
They know that sales for both Cd's and movies is actually going really well.
Pretty much everyone say that they do buy records, and would buy more if they could buy it the way they want to.
So from what I can gather from the opinions of the general popualtion in sweden, if they labels don't adapt very soon, people will dislike the labels so much that they will refuse to pay them even if they will start to give them a convinient option to do so.
It's time to wake up to the demands of the customers, wheather you sell trance or britney.
Enough of my ramblings though.
Let's have some intelligent opinions on artistry instead 
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"I certainly hope to sell in the course of time, but I think I shall be able to influence it most effectively by working steadily on, and that at the present moment making desperate efforts to force the work I am doing now upon the public would be pretty useless."
~ Vincent Van Gogh
"The people who make art their business are mostly imposters."
~ Pablo Picasso
"The work of art is above all a process of creation, it is never experienced as a mere product."
~ Paul Klee
"As soon as any art is pursued with a view of money, then farewell, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, all hope of genuine good work."
~ Samuel Butler
"I cannot live under pressures from patrons, let alone paint."
~ Michelangelo
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« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:41
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I as artist am happy if people enjoy my art. The way how they get it doesn't interest me. I don't want money for it. I am also happy if people enjoy to use plugins i made, also for them i don't want money. If people enjoy the music, my fractal art, the using of my plugins they can feel the joy i had making it. For me it is fun and expression of my mind. Also it is learning and building structures for my brain. I am happy about the internet, so people can see and listen to things i made by myself. It is not about respect, not about money, it is about fun and happieness, about expression of my feelings -good and bad-. It is about showing what i do in my life and who i am. Of course people see and listen very small parts of me, but thats enough to share something.
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sherlockalien
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
629
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:51
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On 2005-02-23 14:17, traveller wrote:
C'mon people, it's pretty black & white issue. Metallica makes millions and millions of € out of every single album released and probably like a million € a gig. Why the phuck do they care if 200 000 people downloaded their latest album? Now instead of building a new 70 million € homes they'll have to do with a 65 million € homes. Poor bastards.
Now think of average Joe the psytrance maker. Had he been very, very lucky his album would have sold 15 000 (?) copies. Which would have made him 30 000 (?) € richer. He could have bought some new hardware and live another year in pretty asthetic way. Now instead a thousand people bought his album and 40 000 downloaded it. He got a few thousand €. Now he's wondering how to pay the rent next month and so on. Okay cool he gets to travell for free at summer and maybe even gets paid 500€ a gig.
Tell me there's no difference..
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So they make 20million euro and we can download, traveler? What about bands that make 10 million? or 1 million? or 100 thousand? or 10 thousand? or 1 thousand? or 100 bucks? or 10 bucks?
Where is the dividing like? Who will be the impartial judge to say who´s to download and who´s not to download?
And it is about the money, not the quality and work involved (or your taste)? So if someone made his tune in 10 secs using fruity loops, but doesnt make much money then you HAVE to buy his music, but a rock band that has been working for many many many years, but makes good money, you should download?!
You see, its a very very shady argument, that one...
One more thing.. Just because it doesnt SEEM to make a difference if I download from them, doesnt mean I should do it.. If I were to think like you, I might as well throw litter on the floor, and waste water in my house, and throw food out.. "I wont make a difference".... see? But I DO think I make a difference, no matter if Im a drop of water in the middle of the ocean.. I believe in doing my part, and I think you shouldnt go in the lines of your argument anymore
btw, fu hsi
I didnt mean to imply that artists that make money dont want people to enjoy their music.. I was talking about how some people have MAIN aims in what they do, and for some it may be one, for others it may be another, and this doesnt mean they wouldnt also enjoy the other.. just means that it is their main aim..
and I never said money is filthy by itself... Anything, imo, can be filthy or not depending on how you use it and what are your mental attitudes towards it...
My point with all that is that people see too much in black and white, and that downloading is not the only way of supporting music, and that it is not necessarily bad.. That is not to say it is necessarily good either.. I believe in supporting the musicians, doing my part, but I dont think that anybody has the right to say to others who should be supported and who shouldnt (eg ott and traveller saying metallica is ok to download).. Everybody decides who he wants to support or not, or in what way he wants to support (going to gigs, cd buying, just promoting his name, good reviews)... |
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Watter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
184
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 15:57
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Ok, OTT I do get your point, nevertheles I don´t fully agree with you.... and why, because what you are sugesting is that its fine for one to go out and steal a car from a rich person, just because that person has money to buy a new one (lets assume that the is no insurence ok) but it is wrong to steal from a poor person...... in my upbringing I was thougt that it is wrong to steal, and thats it no conditions about t.
I am not saing that that I don't see how different it is but I think you get my point.
Just a question for the artists out there... what pays your rent.... your cd sales or your gigs?
"open your mind....you might just see that there isn't anything to be seen" |
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slyman604
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
263
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 16:47
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"Why should craft artists who make pretty tea pots and fashionable drink holders be allowed to make a living and not musical composers?"
nobody is stopping anyone from making a living as a musical composer in the same way no one is stopping anyone from making a living making tea pots. Thats not really what your asking though. Your allegory should read "why should a craft artist who makes obscure chai drink holders ornated with bizarre glyphs not be able to make a living doing so even when most people drink coffee or tea and even when probly 1 out of 3 people who like to drink chai from one of the said drink holders also try to make their own custom drink holders".
trying to make your living off a product with such a small market and with soooo many crafts people also making stuff compared to just consumers of the product is a fools game. Somewhere in here should a be a line about people opening up their cd rom drive and using it as a cup holder but im not crafty enough to work that in..
Ultimately, the only way to actually do this would be to market to the common denominator of what the herd is currently buying, eventually ruining the true art side of it from a personal perspective. |
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Ott^
OTT
Started Topics :
0
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488
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 16:55
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I must say Spindrift, you do sound like you have a few unresolved "issues" with record labels, but not knowing anything about you I'm in no position to try to guess what they may be about.
Believe it or not, I agree with you about the way the music industry has conducted itself over the years. Corruption, price fixing, and a history of shady business practices have been a feature of the music industry since it came into existence and many talented artists have died in poverty because of the way the industry sharks have structured the contracts offered to them.
The point you are missing, imo, is the distinction between the handful of huge multinational conglomerates which control the mainstream media, and the tiny, almost hobbyist labels that distribute the psy-trance music you [presumably] like to listen to.
I've worked with a lot of the UK trance labels, either as an artist or as an engineer, and I can tell you - they are NOT coining in the money. They run on extremely tight budgets and count themselves lucky to show any profit at all.
Youth didn't set up Dragonfly or LSD as a way of getting rich - it was an expression of his passion for the music and the scene.
Simon and Simon didn't set up Twisted to get rich - the idea was to get the music out there as directly as possible - avoiding the major label bullshit - and release music that otherwise wouldn't get heard because it isn't "commercial" enough.
It has always been a struggle to keep a small label afloat, even before the days of p2p, and I'm not suggesting for a moment that the rise of p2p is solely responsible for the harsh climate that these tiny specialist labels exists in, but - it is a contributary factor.
The means of distributing music will change over time, but by way of evolution - not revolution.
The way I see it, if you enjoy a minority interest passion like psy-trance, it is surely in your interest to protect and support the source of the music you love.
Thats all.
Incidentally, regarding the accusation [from EYB as i recall] that I have "$$$ in my eyes" I'll fill you in with a bit of background info.
Before I started releasing my own music I worked for ten years as a freelance sound engineer/producer.
I was earning on average about £500 [800 Euro] a day, had a manager getting me tons of work, and had money coming out of my ears.
Then, one day, I was sitting in an expensive studio mixing the soundtrack to a PEPSI commercial, having just finished a load of MTV links, and I realised my soul was being eaten up by the nature of my work. So I quit.
I went home and started making music purely for the sake of art - no eye on the market or the current trends. Just honest art. I had no idea if anybody would like it, and to be honest I didn't care. I was doing it for me.
I played a couple of tunes to Simon P one day which, to my surprise, he liked. Shortly after, "Somersettler" came out on Backroom Beats 1.
I then started on Hallucinogen in Dub. Luckily for me, enough people liked that for me to get a chance to make another record - Blumenkraft - and even luckier, enough people liked that for me to get a chance to make another which I am working on now.
I was calculating my tax return for the years that Hallucinogen in Dub and Blumenkraft came out and was amused to discover that - for all the hard work and time spent - I'd have been financially better off working on the Drive-Thru at McDonalds for minimum wage.
I went from earning £2500 a week, living in a nice flat in London and driving a shiny new car, to earning just enough to eat, pay the rent on a tiny house in the middle of nowhere and drive a 1979 Volkswagen with more rust than paint, and guess what? I've never been happier.
If money was my motivation I'd go and get a McJob or go back to engineering, but as it is I get to wake up each morning and decide what I do with my day. And I eat a lot of lentils.
I'm quite fortunate because my records appeal to people outside the trance scene, and they sell sufficiently to enable me to live a simple life on the proceeds of what I do - but there are many who make just trance and who rely on the goodwill of the people who love what they do to offer them some support.
There are obviously two sides to this whole debate and if only the polarised hard-liners on each side could drop some of the naked hostility that drags every discussion like this down to the level of exchanging insults, we'd all be better off.
I have no interest in calling people "thieves" for downloading music. I see no point in that.
For me, personally, I suspect it is more a matter of personal responsibility within the individual than a one of modernising business practices but as I said, my mind is open.
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 23, 2005 17:19
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Thx for that post OTT.
I understand where you are coming from and can appreciate your view.
I never been trying to attack you as a person.
I only did not get the contents of where you where trying to get at with some of your earlier posts.
I asked for clarification because I'm obviously is interested in the subject, and I do like to understand what you are actually thinking about the subject.
Like I said though, my approach ot the subject is not really about what I think is fair or morally correct.
Yes, I do have a personal dislikning towards many labels, mainstream and underground.
But thats not what I have been trying to express even if I cannot avoid to let it shine thru sometimes.
My quest is for understanding and looking for solutions so we don't have to have this arguments and bad vibes.
We could unite and be happy that the music have a far wider spread than it used to have.
Be grateful that there is more fans even if sales is not good.
Wheather you look at it from my perspective and don't care about the finacial rewards or want to keep making a living out of it I think that trying to understand the market and fans is beneficial for the labels.
And the fans should understand the artists of course as well.
In my view it's mostly the labels that need to increase thier understanding right now, and therfore I might seem like I'm trying to attack them.
But I said it a few times that it is a concern of mine about the commercial side that I think that the labels will not be around for so long if they don't look at new ways to distibute the music.
Then we will rather have only distributors and/or shops left.
I don't think distibutors and shops is better than labels and put more love into their work, so I would rather see the labels surviving.
So I am also on the labels side even if it might not seem like that many times.
Fans, labels and artists ahould all work together in my ideal world anyway.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
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http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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