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To VooV Organizers - (an open letter)
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 18:40
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Quote:
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On 2005-04-19 16:34, deebug wrote:
there is no need to discuss such a shit here - i dont believe it..
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That is not for you to decide, is it?
You don't want to discuss it, just don't, leave the discussion to others who do.
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it has just sth to do with your personal opinion that has NOTHING to do with the opinions of 90% of the ppl
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mmmm.... so of this is the opinion of one against many, it means he shouldn't voice it? On the contrary...
Please stick to the point, ppl, and say your own opinions. No need to fight about it. Actually, you're not going to fight about it- not here that is.
Thank you.
Sorry for that. Back to the topic please.
  ---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Krusty
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
118
Posted : Apr 20, 2005 14:48
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It has been said that the delay can cause problems for people even induce violence... i made a festival once with the sound placed at four points and we had a strange incident of two guys that began to fight and then did not know why...granted there could have been various explanations for that! Although I have never been to Voov I imagine their engineers are top notch...being German...however with the rig set up in this way it is almost impossible to create a really quality sound experience for the majority...I believe in
simplicity,
two columnsat the front and perhaps some towers (pointing the same way) further back on the dancefloor...this is not my own theory...i work with some people who know some stuff about sound...they design rigs...check out www.opusaudio.com
Having spent Boom 2004 bowled over by the quality and production of the festival but flaberghasted that the sound system, while it was very sophisticated and expensive, was set up like that...the delay was huge...and to enjoy any sort of strength with the sound you had to dance next to oneof the towers thus negating the stereo effect... I ams till finding it difficult to know why
this is done...dancing circles etc. but for me thats something from the past....created to work with different sounds ...
Voov has been going for 13 years (I think) ...people come for the Voov Experience which I imagine is a combination of lots of things...the sound system does not need to be the best because the people will not stop coming to what is arguably one of Europe's top festivals...I guess it would just be cool for all us pedants to have the sound just right....
having said that there are some festivals that do get it right.... but thats another topic....  |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Apr 20, 2005 18:35
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@Krusty
Quote Krusty
"It has been said that the delay can cause problems for people even induce violence... "
Actually, there were 2 people fighting last year, chasing each other - One of them looked REALLY scared, and the other one VERY evil.
I dont think it was the sound quality that did it though - It happened in the middle of the circle where the sound quality is ok.
More likely it was because people were cramped together, or whatever. No need to speculate on that I guess
Quote Krusty
"I imagine their engineers are top notch"
So do I - also, the alternative stage works just fine. Im also sure, that they know very well about the sound problem.
Perhaps they feel they need to create the same VooV over and over in order to create a "standard product" for the audience.
Which is a bit ironic, since they keep the lineup secret Surprise Surprise
Maybe next, I will try to persuade them to play the same music at both stages at the same time - problem solved lol
Kind regards
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Deliranta
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
1
Posted : Apr 21, 2005 01:00
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Boom 2004 was flawed for me because of the problem discussed above. Circular disposition of speakers made for a small area of matched sounds. All around the valley you coudn't really appreciate the music. But had a great time anyway, venue is beautiful. |
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Dovla
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
43
Posts :
748
Posted : Apr 21, 2005 03:24
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I agree with Krell since I was @ Voov last year and the alternative floor has a much better setup if you ask me...I'm sure there are places where a circular setup has worked fantastic, but Voov isn't one of those places.
Voov would be awesome if the entire circle would be a lot bigger because it's always filled with too many people. I just don't like to push through the crowds and I'm also trying to preserve my good hearing since I have occasional problems with it...and when there is a two stack setup I have my own personal volume control...moving forward makes it louder and moving backwards makes it more quiet 
DJ Dovla | Interchill Records, Flow Records
www.dovla.info |
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russ
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
35
Posts :
275
Posted : Apr 21, 2005 16:51
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A surround system with dance music is just about the worst idea any organizer has ever come up with. With beatless ambient and a small area it can be very interesting, but anything else it is a bad joke. The bigger you make the circle, the more problems you have.
No delay stacks, no circles--just two big stacks of funktion-ones or turbosounds or mayer speakers and then all your problems are solved. It's not very difficult.
It's truly stunning to me that after all these years organizers are still fiddling around with ridiculous gimmicks like surround sound. I would hope that after the disaster and embarassment of Boom 2004 (the only festival in history that forgot to bring a sound system), no trance organizer would ever make this mistake again...
The only person who can do a surround system is Tony Andrews (from Funktion-One). He has a system called the experimental ambisonic sound field. In this system, certain channels on the mixer can be routed to certain speakers. So for example a live set like Son Kite that uses 24 channels could theoretically put the kick and the bass and main percussive elements on the front speakers while panning around leads and fx with a joystick on the side and rear speakers. I would pay lots of money to hear this!
But in a festival situation even this set-up would be useless, as it would unusable to dj's operating with just two (l+r) channels, and the circle can't be too big.
In other words, forget about it. |
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Krusty
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
118
Posted : Apr 22, 2005 12:43
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Quote:
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On 2005-04-21 16:51, russ wrote:
just two big stacks of funktion-ones or turbosounds or mayer speakers and then all your problems are solved. It's not very difficult.
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these are not bad...Meyer especially.. but why have cotton when you can have silk.....www.opusaudio.com
there is no other system that plays trance this good...
www.omnifestival.org |
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russ
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
35
Posts :
275
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 07:47
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Quote:
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On 2005-04-22 12:43, Krusty wrote:
these are not bad...Meyer especially.. but why have cotton when you can have silk.....www.opusaudio.com
there is no other system that plays trance this good...
http://www.omnifestival.org
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hi krusty, this i doubt very much. have you ever heard dance music on a large funktion-one rig outside? that is the definition of silk. i find it hard to believe that opus is even in the same ballpark of sound. |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 12:48
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I thought the info from the VooV Website http://www.voov-experience.de might be interesting to look over at this point, also - I would like to sum up this topic, so we can an overview as to other peoples experience with circular setups.
Now, lots of people have voiced their opinion about sound systems in general, and VooV´s setup in particular in this thread.
The replies in this topic, thus far, are like this.
AGAINST circular mainstage setup.
- Krell
- MoWGLi
- -Abatwa-
- Side-A
- aje
- EYB
- traveller
- heather feather
- Username
- Ott^
- UnderTow
- Neville Bone
- chong
- Krusty
- Deliranta
- Dovla
- russ
FOR circular mainstage setup.
- mocca
- Madpup (finds theres enough room inside the circle, but still admits the sound outside isnt great)
- deebug
Not clearly against, or for. (worth noting, that both spindrift and HandA did say that sound outside the circle sucks)
- andonis (says my opinion is well put - but doesnt voice his own.)
- Spindrift (Never went to voov, but likes the idea and principle in circle sound)
- HandA (Agress that the sound outside the circle is bad, but as far as circular setups go, VooVs isnt bad)
If anyone feel I misinterpreted this, please say so - Also, I have to say, that maybe not everybody will go back and read this topic - So, please, read the whole thread, so you can get your own impression as to what people are saying. (this goes for the voov crew in particular).
We have, 17 people who prefer a stereo setup, most with voov and other festival experience, and also a few audio geeks explaining things for us common folks.
We have 3 people who disaggree. Arguing that I must be mistaken, they never noticed a double beat.
And 3 who I dont think are completely clear, or discuss basing principle arguments over reality.
So, I stand with my original arguement - Its a nice idea and all with surround sound, but the sound sucks when you go outside the circle - and people seem to agree with me on that it has a negative impact on their experience, and most important of all that they prefer stereo over surround.
Also, what kind of people are voicing their views here ? I mean, THESE ARE REAL PSYFREAKS - These are the people that the party is all about, people who take their time to write and read on isratrance, invest themselves in the culture!... Not some people who are just in it for the drugs. (this goes for ALL people people here, not only the ones who agree with me)
What strikes me is that they (the VooV Experience Crew) are very proud of their achievement with the main floor sound - and there are so many people involved with it, that the prestige of this "fantastistic" sound system is enormous.
I mean, when you have many people agreeing on the inside (VooV Crew and audio Technicians/Engineers), dont people just nod their heads at each other all the time loosing real focus and perspective on whether their solution fits the problem at hand?
They list their partners by name on the VooV website - and lots of other details, like the history of the setup, technical stuff and such. Its cool they are open about whats "under the cover", but will they be open and take this feedback to heart at all ?
Quote Voovs text
"VooV Experience is one of the rare festivals were you can enjoy a turbo surround system... "
This is a sales argument - Something to differentiate the VooV Experience from other festivals... However, do we really need that ? The VooV is special, because of the unannounced lineup - Its concept IS unique, surround stage or no surround stage.
Quote VooVs text
"The quality of the sound system is most important to us, that's why we take any effort to maximise it every year..."
Does this include replying to this topic, and giving a public/official feedback to the views stated in this topic ? What will you tell us? Is the sound system important because you need some marketing gimmick, or because you want to create a great experience for psyfreaks like me, and the 17 others who back my views up ?
Or perhaps, there is something we didnt consider, something other than our experience on and at the dance floor.
People LOVE your alternative stage sound system - Just about all agree on that... Is your answer to me and the others "ok then, why dont you just go there?!!"... I wonder.....
@VooV Crew (if they are reading this)
Take note, I love the VooV Experience - and I will go, no matter what. Only reason I take the time to write all this, is that I love it. Also, I appreciate, very much - the work you put into creating the VooV Experience + the other work you do - for VooV, afterall, isnt everything.. Hard work for sure, and you have my respect.
Quote from http://www.voov-experience.de - Concerning their present time sound system, for updated version, check their website.
"Main Floor Sound System:
The quality of the sound system is most important to us, that's why we take any effort to maximise it every year... Since 1994 PAM from Berlin is maintaining the system on the main floor and this year they did their best job ever. The crystal clear sound was the best we ever heard - VooV Experience is one of the rare festivals were you can enjoy a turbo surround system...
Basic Approach
The design incorporates four main towers and 16 more positions in a ground-support with 23m diameter, pointing in- and outwards. In every listener position, at least 3 sources if not more can be heard. The main goal of the system was to create a virtual room with a lot of sources instead of maximum level. Major keys to success are a minimum height of 4m for any mid/high drivers and a 5-way active system plus additional motor-driven loudspeakers for frequencies below 50Hz.
Equipment
A Martin F2 System, rounded off by 8 x Servodrive Subs was used.
The system has a total power of approximately 90kW.
The following components were used:
28 x F2Top (12"/2"/Tweeter Array)
40 x F2B (2 x 15" hornloaded with extremely high sensitivity)
24 x FSX (2 x 18" direct)
8 x Intersonics Servodrive BT7
All components were driven by LAB Gruppen amps.
Processing
This year, the system was rounded off by changing from conventional analog processing to GAE's DSC28 processor incorporating FIR-filters for linear phase filtering. For this purpose, the system was before measured in reflection-free environment at the TU Berlin by Anselm Goertz who developed the controller. Filter and Limiter design in the GAE processor allowed safer operation at higher levels than before.
Personnel
The system was designed by Jakob Kraft first in 1995 and further developed over the years until today. Equipment and service was once again provided by PAM events, also from Berlin. The main crew this year was Ralf Metzler (Head of Sound), Timo Gesch, Holger Kniggendorf (sound technician), Georg Spickermann (Rigging/groundsupport). More information about the design: http://www.rahe-kraft.de, rental: http://www.pamevents.de, http://www.anselmgoertz.de (GAE controller).
Alternative Floor Sound System
Since 2001 TOTEC from Hamburg runs the sound at the Alternative Floor and they impressed us all with their brilliant, massive sound system. http://www.totec.de
Chill Out Floor
This year the Chill Out Circus Tent sound system was provided and operated by Totec. Various components created a delicately balanced, pleasing sound quality throughout the whole Chill Out Area. "
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Zombi
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
375
Posts :
5032
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 21:48
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im like 5 years DONT CARE whats going on on main stage:) gimme dusty afternoon on alternative stage with tribal madness and rest of time walking on market streets and drink beers.
iv been there many times and i guess i will be many more, there is nothing better for last weekend of july if u wanna be outside and meet friends from all over world, for real.
Believe your soul ! |
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Rishi
Rishi
Started Topics :
50
Posts :
244
Posted : Apr 27, 2005 23:06
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Going to Voov this year for my 7 th time ( and damn proud of it hehe )
I can see many truths in many things u all say ( not into quoting .. but hope u understand ). I heard the double kicks ( maybe the location .. the woods pounding it back .. ) I like it .. sounds chaotic hehe ..but also when u stand in the middle yes ... the finest sounds i ever heard anywhere ,, Kicks are almost pressing you down in the german soil and basslines are fatter than ever . But yes , the middle the inner circle .. its for a "reserved" crowd ,aprox . 1/4 of the festival can enjoy the ultimate sound at a time .. personally i like to have some space when i dance .. so either you create some space by creating your own dance territory with big dance movements or you wait untill people go to bed so theres space .. bad choices ...
But Imho .. could be nice with 2 circles or some more speakers .... so the lot could enjoy the monstrosity ..
3ó BooOoM ShanKaRA 3ó
<<<<Full On Dreams Vol 1 Out now>>>>
www.virustekk.com |
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Noo7
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
4
Posted : Apr 28, 2005 18:36
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I just wanted to say that I agree, the sound is far from perfect outside the circle. Even as you approach the edge of circle, the sounds seems to deform.
The best sound I have heard so far has to be Samothraki, a large square where everybody can dance in it. And even if you were drifting in the sea you could hear everything perfectly (also people just lauging), even though the sound came just from one "side".
Another thing that reeeaaallllyy bugged me was the vibe on saturday. I hated it. I came to the dancefloor and it was as if all the germans had nothing to do on their saturday so they just bought a ticket to voov. As if voov was just another night out (using and drinking theirselves senseless till they can't stand no more) in a hardtrance club.
But besides those points I had a great time on the alternative stage and in the chill-out. But no more VooV for me though, I'll take my chances in portugal ;-) |
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psy-fly
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
28
Posted : May 14, 2005 16:11
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Krell the forum on the VooV website has re-opened so maybe you could add your criticisms and suggestions there. Personally i havent a problem with the sound, a couple of times i heard a slight delay, but i just moved a few metres and it was perfect. Also i think its worth it for the circle effect, everyone dancing faced the one way is like mainstream rock concert. But anyway, im sure the organisers would like to hear what you have to say and maybe come up with a solution.
Only a couple of months left, aw yeah!
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thebadtrip
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
20
Posted : May 31, 2005 06:45
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Krell,
I'm all for no-circle. Or way larger circle.
I NEED space to dance... 
See you @ VooV (first timer!) |
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Mogg
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
53
Posts :
468
Posted : May 31, 2005 18:32
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Well i didnt read all post but i can say that these circle sound systems are made on prupose to gather people inside the circle and made a better atmosphere in the dancefloor. Otherwise people will disperse and atomsphere is lost.
I also think that the place where the dancefloor is located tells u what kind of sound system to use. If its a big open place u need this kind of sound system (boom2004) if its a more closed place surrounded by anything u should use the normal sound systems (samothraky)
this is my humble opinion!!
hughs!!!!!!!
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