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To VooV Organizers - (an open letter)

mouka
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  10
Posts :  383
Posted : Feb 11, 2005 19:12
I still agree with Madpup, there is no double beat. Sure it is all about physics but so is the ear working.
If you want to be inside the inner circle you sure have to suffer because it is too crowded, better go there on late sunday morning. In the outer circle the sound is perfect and even outside all the circles there is still good music to enjoy without a noticable double beat.
Temporal Fusion Effect: the ear has the ability to combine a set of similar sounds and hear them as though they were a single entity, provided each sound arrives within 30 ms of the previous sound.

Quote:
Therefore, it has to do with either our memory, or, how critical we are of sound quality.
Dont you agree with me on that ?



yes, I totally agree with that.

          www.ajana-records.com
www.trishula-records.com
Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1114
Posted : Feb 11, 2005 20:07
To Mocca

" I still agree with Madpup, there is no double beat. Sure it is all about physics but so is the ear working. "

So we are all just imagining it huh ?

You will remember this topic when you go there this summer, and remember my words You will get a "ohhhh, I guess he told me so" experience. Now you will be listening for it ! The days of roaming about in front of that stage in pure audio bliss are OVER for you now! *evil grin*

"If you want to be inside the inner circle you sure have to suffer because it is too crowded, better go there on late sunday morning."

Yeah, but I want to dance there during the night - Thats when that stage is really good I think. For the day time, I prefer the alternative stage. (of course, depending on whos playing where)

"Temporal Fusion Effect: the ear has the ability to combine a set of similar sounds and hear them as though they were a single entity, provided each sound arrives within 30 ms of the previous sound. "

Interesting - but then, its more than 30 ms - Or is it really some peoples ears who are more sensistive ? Id like to think I am superior thank you :-P

Its good we can agree on some things. Not for all, but for many of us, there is a problem with the sound setup.

I did have a faint hope, that this post might open up the eyes of the voov crew, to change/adapt.
However, its clear to me now, this will not happen - Theres too much input, and the distance between party goer and organizer is too big... Like when calling a big corporation.
I mean, they probably have thousands of people voicing their views.... Best thing, would be to get 100-200 party goers to fill out questionaires... Then Im sure, it would become clear to them.

Its not in our heads, and we actually do get bothered by the sound setup. Or else, we wouldnt be writing this. So, to anyone who would like to turn this into a Sucks / Doesnt Suck debate - Id like to consider, that each person has his own experience, and thats what matters to that person.
No absolute truth

I think, the solution would be, a bigger stage - Like HandA wrote... With more room for dancing people.

For sure, one of my best dancefloor experiences was maybe Wrecked Machines at VooV - where I had luckily found a spot inside the circle.




          Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca
Username


Started Topics :  3
Posts :  28
Posted : Feb 13, 2005 03:24
Quote:

I would like to know, why you create a "circle of sound" on the mainstage - since that setup causes the music outside the circle to sound wrong (double kick from the beat, and the rest of the sounds).




Seconded. I dunno if the ppl who disagree are too drugged to notice, but there certainly is a wrong delay depending on your position. We tried to tell'em years ago as me and a pal were working at the VooV (it's the same crappy sound system since 95 as far as I can remember). Stopped attending to the VooV in 98. Curious to learn nothing has changed. However - I visit other events where the sound has a better quality.

PS: The delay effect can also be determined/measured as the speed of sound needs it's time to travel from the speakers.
Every1 who ever attended to a normal rock concert experienced this - like standing too close to the left speaker will cause a delay from the right speaker and vice versa.
Now the VooV setup contains four speakers which means that this effect can also be doubled. The sweetspot is right in the middle of the "X", everything outside the "X" will sound wrong. But also within the inner circle you get a delay when moving too close to one of the "X"'s ends/legs.
On a 2speaker setup the sweetspot is right in the middle of the "Y". Moving too far from it too left or right will also cause a delay in a "Y" but in- or decreasing the distance back and forward won't be a big problem for the listener.
deebug

Started Topics :  2
Posts :  30
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 03:04
Username: CRAPPY SOUND SYSTEM?????
from which galaxy do you come from?
just choose the second floor and you got your 2-point boring standard.
ive been to a lot of festivals worldwide and ive never never experienced such an impressive powerful soundsystem like on the voov.
you got this delay-effect on every >2 point soundsystem due to its nature.
this effect is nothing than wanted.
just search a position where the runtime-differencies produce a sound that is in rhythm, or go to the center or just stay away if you dont like that.
i love this effect. really psychedelic..
Ott^
OTT

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  488
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 03:41
For what its worth I've never heard a circular sound system that really worked in more than a few places.

If you're lucky enough to get yourself in the sweet-spot then it can sound great, but in my experience the problems of phase cancellation and time alignment make it very problematic indeed.

I've never been to VOOV so I can't comment about that particular system, but all the best rigs I've ever heard have consisted of two stacks with no delay towers.
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 03:56

I have never been to the VooV for one simple reason: No announced line-up. Some people might see this as a good thing as the "stars" arn't the center of attention. Frankly that is something that people do themselves and not the line-up.

I go to any party or festival for the music before anything else. Knowing the line-up tells me what kind of music to expect. I won't trust the VooV's organisation to choose the right artists simply because people have different tastes. I can't know if they have the same taste as me or if I am going to be musicaly bored for the whole festival.

Anyway, back to the topic. I'm with you Krell. I really hate circle sound systems but I'll even go one further: Even the relativiely small circle at Fullmoon 2003 had double/tripple/quadruple/quintiple beats INSIDE the circle and I am guessing that the VooV circle is bigger. This isn't because it was badly setup. This is just the results of simple physics. Sound just travels at a certain speed. 343 meter per second at 20c. That means that it takes about 3 milliseconds for sound to travel 1 meter.

With any setup where the speakers are more than about 15-20 meters apart, the delay will start to become noticable (some people will notice it earlier than others) and you will get multiple hits on all the percussive sounds. (Also on other sounds but that isn't as obvious). The only place where this doesn't happen is at the exact center of the circle where you only get cancelation of certain frequencies.

I am guessing that the VooV setup has the DJs/Live-acts at the center otherwise it would be very hard to do any proper beat-match mixing. So there is nowhere to stand and dance and have a good sound.

For those people that say there are places where there are no multiple beats, that is physicaly impossible. Maybe you don't hear them as not everyone's timing is as accurate, but they are most certainly there. Well ok, if you stand close enough to one speaker so that everything else is drowned out you might not notice it but then you will probably be going deaf. Not a good option.

For a festival that claims that they have the best soundsystem arround this really makes me wonder ...

Even in a two stack setup you get double beats on most of the dancefloor if the speakers are far enough apart. Luckily with such a setup you can stand anywhere on the middle line between the speaker stacks and have proper phase coherant sound.

Oh and about having everyone facing the speakers, so what? It is just how you interpret it. At the first Boom festival I kept having this vision of everyone dancing upstream against the waves of sounds that where pushing the dancers back. I never saw it as some kind of DJ worship or anything like that. That is just one's individual interpretation.

And btw, people will turn towards the speakers because it actually sounds better that way. That is how our ears function.

So I second Krell's request but broaden it to any party organiser. Please set up your sound system in Stereo. Don't mess with silly gimmicks that don't work and disturb people that have a good sense of timing.

Thanks,

UnderTow
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 03:57
Quote:

On 2005-04-19 03:41, Ott^ wrote:

I've never been to VOOV so I can't comment about that particular system, but all the best rigs I've ever heard have consisted of two stacks with no delay towers.



Amen. The delay stacks at the second Samothraki festival annoyed me alot. But at least there I could stand way in front of them in the middle of the stereo field ...

UnderTow

deebug

Started Topics :  2
Posts :  30
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 04:01
hmmm..
since 10 years ppl are saying, that this system is extremely inspiring. im wondering why in 2005 some strange guys say the opposite.
ok, the floor got really full the last years and its nearly not possible to join it at the opening.
so just come back 2 hours later and everything will be fine.
i even think, that 4-point pa´s are the reason for the development of 16th basslines 8 years ago (4*kickdrum=16th bassline).
i first heard these basses on the voov, years later in the first production.
everyone i talked to, loved this pa.
just cant believe what krell says, im sure he is just joking..
Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1114
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 10:57
@deebug

Quote deebug
"from which galaxy do you come from? "

Im from the galaxy M77.

Quote deebug
"ive been to a lot of festivals worldwide and ive never never experienced such an impressive powerful soundsystem like on the voov. "

Powerful yes, accurate no.


Quote deebug
"you got this delay-effect on every >2 point soundsystem due to its nature. "

You get delay on all sound systems, what Im talking about is a delay problem - not the delay as such.

Quote deebug
"just search a position where the runtime-differencies produce a sound that is in rhythm, or go to the center or just stay away if you dont like that. "

Why thanks - Just stay away if you dont like it ! -Im not there to listen to a sound system, but to artists - So I would actually like to get to listen to them in a decent sound quality.
I will always be at the main stage even if the problem is not fixed. Just push myself forward, standing where the sound is ok like "sardines in a can".... without dancing much sadly.

Quote deebug
"i love this effect. really psychedelic.. "

So I guess you would like all your psytrance with a bit of echo added ? It should be called the "echo stage" and not "main stage" :-P

Quote deebug
"since 10 years ppl are saying, that this system is extremely inspiring. im wondering why in 2005 some strange guys say the opposite. "

Ive been going to voov since 1999, and I was unhappy with the main stage setup since day 1. No chilling in front of the stage with good audio quality...
I still go though, I like voov - The mix of progressive and full on. I go for the music, and the surprise

Quote deebug
"ok, the floor got really full the last years and its nearly not possible to join it at the opening.
so just come back 2 hours later and everything will be fine. "

I like about 1-2 meters between me and the other dancers - This is not achieved after 2 hours, or hardly at all... Perhaps during the day, but its too hot for me to dance then.

Quote deebug
"everyone i talked to, loved this pa.
just cant believe what krell says, im sure he is just joking.. "

Well, now you can step back from that stand point and read this thread - You will see more people than me are unhappy with this setup.

Anyway have a nice summer deebug:-)

Krell



          Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca
deebug

Started Topics :  2
Posts :  30
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 16:34
you seem to be a great expert.
you seem to know alot about physics.
i would suggest you to contact pam or antaro with your ideas, but take care that these real idealistic and professional ppl dont laugh at you.
for sure, you are right when you say, that the circle should be bigger, but hey, it should only be bigger because of ppl like you who seem to have problems but not with the pa.
the way, you are discussing here is kind of funny. this seriously orientated arguments without any background.
just enjoy this happening, its one of the biggest with the best quality in every discipline worldwide.
hifi haha..
just get a pair of ns10, sit at home and take care about the positioning of your head, otherwise you could hear double bassdrums
i think you just dont know anything about what you are saying.
and this stuff with the room on the floor..
dont forget, you are sharing the party with others. the others will respect your room in every case (except too drugged ppl). i hope you also do it like this.
and of course, i like delay and when you would know something about what you are saying, you should know that there is always some delay on 90% of all layers in a track.
there is no need to discuss such a shit here - i dont believe it..
and sorry, that my arguments are a little bit too personal sometimes, it has just sth to do with your personal opinion that has NOTHING to do with the opinions of 90% of the ppl, take a look at the photos, ask ppl outside your posse, ask soundengineers, you will see, you are nearly alone, the others just enjoy...
bye
Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1114
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 17:50
@deebug

Dont get personal, you will just make yourself look like an ass when you do, so dont. It REALLY isnt called for.

And yes, I do know what Im talking about, I´ve been a dj for more than 10 years, Ive arranged parties in the past and Im very much an hifi enthusiast.
I would say I have a good allround grasp of what Im talking about, and lots of experience in reference to other PA´s (more than 10 years in the scene of electronic music alone).
All of which is really besides the point, this thread isnt about me - its about the voov main stage sound setup.

Quote deebug " would suggest you to contact pam or antaro with your ideas"

This is an open letter to the voov crew. I think, this is the best way to do something like this. One person on his own, will be ignored I think.
Also, in a thread like this, people will be forced to argue their case for themselves - The organizer will then get a better idea of whos input to listen to.
I write them, in a very friendly manner - Not hostile in any way.

If you read the entire thread, you will see that others agree with me - also, you will see that I have already asked people I know, people who have also been there several times.

Quote Deebug
"need to discuss such a shit here"

Well, not with you anyways - Since you cant really refrain from being personal in your attempts to undermine my credibility (which will fail btw).

The thing is, you can debate things in 2 ways - Either point fingers at people with different opinions, or try to build up your own stand point using facts (if you have any)...
Only thing you are really saying is "I dont believe you, and who are you anyway?" - How disrespectfull really.

If you dont agree, you can just write "I havent experienced the double kick / delay problem at voov" - or "It doesnt really bother me, I think the echo is cool" - Instead of getting personal.

And deebug, dont expect me to reply to anything you write in the future - Unless you stop being personal.

Regards

Krell



          Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca
Neville Bone
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  12
Posts :  390
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 18:02
I too agree with you guys.
A flat wall of speakers would be definetly better.
chong

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  227
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 18:20
Quote:

On 2005-04-19 16:34, deebug wrote:

i think you just dont know anything about what you are saying.


i think he obviously knows more than you about sound ...IMHO
chong

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  227
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 18:24
Quote:

On 2005-04-19 16:34, deebug wrote:

and of course, i like delay and when you would know something about what you are saying, you should know that there is always some delay on 90% of all layers in a track.



that's the point!!!!
just to explain u basically, if u put more delay on an already existing delay u will get chaotic echo ...
i'm sure that all the musicians out there that work a lot in order to get the better sound possible wouldn't like their sound to get fucked by a natural delay that would ruin the essence and the dynamic basis of their tracks...
cheers
Ott^
OTT

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  488
Posted : Apr 19, 2005 18:37
It never ceases to amaze me how every single discussion on here turns into an "idiot match" with personal insults and bullshit from every side.

Are there a lot of very young people on this forum?

Certainly feels like it...

Trance Forum » » Forum  Party Promotions - To VooV Organizers - (an open letter)
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