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The Mother of all Mastering thread

orca
Orca

Started Topics :  5
Posts :  281
Posted : Jun 10, 2006 15:57
Quote:

On 2006-01-16 22:11, cytopia wrote:
Anyone have any experience with the X5 plugin for powercore, or the MD3 for mastering?

If so, were they any good? Think i will try the demo versions to test them soon....




my friend..md3 is one of the best tools i know for mastering..but if you dont know how to do mastering-and there are a lot of small things that combined to a big thing-the master.it has multiband compresor and brake wall-very very powerfull youd be amazed:)
plus it has reverbs and more options.

masterx3 or x5 are only multiband compressors and they are also very nice,and suitable for people who dont know about mastering.

i have to say that to be a mastering man you need to work a lot on all kind of projects,you need to have a good ear and this takes time,it doesnt matter which plug if you cant hear small differences.
and also important-it is recomanded you dont master your own projects..you are to biased,you ego gives you hard time-"i want this part to be higer(but you need to get it low..)i want more reverb here(but you dont need reverb here)"..

hope you understand what i meen..when other people master you trak they are objective.

peace
orca
Orca

Started Topics :  5
Posts :  281
Posted : Jun 10, 2006 16:01




..but if you dont know how to do mastering-[/quote]

//if you dont know then you can mess up your trak..thats what i ment in the first frase:)
D-Alien
Oxidelic

Started Topics :  51
Posts :  619
Posted : Jun 10, 2006 20:47
...gosh

ppl speak about mastering as the darkest, ocult, voodoo magic...
give tips ppl, not chips...
anything in this world can be learned, maybe not at highest levels but enough so one can play around freely.

I repeat my Question.
Does Anybody Knows here What the dithering do in the "Loudnes Maximizer" section of the isotop compressor, can somebady explain the diferent tipes of dithering, can somebody explain what the Matrix at the right represents, what have to do this dithering with the loudnes anyway.
...and if You dont know, just dont post.
this things, "...aaa leave this to the profis, dont do mastering, u dont need to know that.." this is useless. if somebody is curious there are others that love to share...
          Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Jun 11, 2006 00:49
D-Alien, I don't use Isotope so I can't help you with the specifics of that program but I can explain dither.

The short version is that you need to apply dither any time you decrease the bit depth. For instance, when you go from 24 bit to 16 bit, you need to apply dither. It is important that the dither is applied as the very last step before the bit depth reduction.

The longer version is that dither is a method to linearise the quantization steps in the digital words of a a digital sampling system at the sampling instance. Or, as some people put it, it randomizes the quantization errors and redistributes them over the entire bandwidth of the sampling system rather than being correlated to the input signal. In other words, quantization distortion, which doesn't sound pleasant, is traded in for noise.

The "problem" is that, as you now know, dither is noise, white noise. This means that this noise is present at a very low level in your signal. On some type of material, especially material that has a very low level or very low passages, it might become audible. That is why different types of dither have been invented:

TPDF is Triangular Probablity Distribution Function dither. Also called Triangular for short. This is mathematicaly perfect dither. It will do exactly what is required when you reduce the bit depth. It will fully linearise the quantae steps. There will be no quantisation distortion. This is the best dither to use for any signal that is going to be processed later on.

Many applications include Rectangular Probablity Distribution Function dither or just Rectangular for short. This is not complete dither. It does not fully linearise the quantisation steps and there is still quantisation distortion left. Avoid this one.

Humans are more sensitive to certain frequencies than others (Search the forum for equal loudness curves or Fletcher-Munson curves as this has allready been explained). In light of this, various smart people have come up with ways of "shaping" this noise so that it is in frequency ranges which our ears are less sensitive to. Usually the noise is "pushed" up into the very high frequencies. The total amount of noise is still the same (or it wouldn't work as dither) but it isn't spread out evenly over the frequency spectrum any more. This type of dither can be used as the very last dither on the very last bit depth reduction (for instance when you go down to 16 bit for CD). It shouldn't be used for any other bit depth reduction as this shaped noise might end up somewhere else in the frequency range when applying non-linear processing (like compressing or limiting) or it might just become audible because it has been compressed/EQed/limited etc. Pow-r 3, UV-22, IDR etc are of this type of dither.

Another type of "dither" is called error shaping or error noise shaping. This isn't exactly dither as what happens is that the errors due to quantisation are shaped, filtered, into frequencies that we are less sensitive to. This method can be combined with regular noise shaping dither to give a pleasing compromise.

About noise shaping and such, I have a theory that for dance music that is being played at very high volume, such as psytrance, the noise shaping kind of breaks down because the sound is on a higher loudness curve where the different sensitivity to different frequencies isn't as pronounced any more. Wether this really is an issue on a big PA, which are not nearly as accurate as studio monitors, is debatable but I don't use noise shaping anymore and if I do, I use some of the less extreme types.

Also, as psytrance has such high RMS levels, it is debatable wether the TPDF noise is ever audible even in frequencies we are supposed to be more sensitive to. The dither noise is 80dB or so below the actual signal. Who can hear that after a few hours of banging beats and a few hundred micrograms?


Is that enough information?


UnderTow
marSpider


Started Topics :  8
Posts :  46
Posted : Jun 12, 2006 03:30
looooooooooool
Quote:

The dither noise is 80dB or so below the actual signal. Who can hear that after a few hours of banging beats and a few hundred micrograms?


anyway thks for the explicit info           does the signature for me ---www.acidplanet.com/hypnosense
D-Alien
Oxidelic

Started Topics :  51
Posts :  619
Posted : Jun 12, 2006 19:06
wow Undertow,

thanks for this extensive explication... actually i do know what dithering do in general, my questioan was specificaly for the Loudness maximizers, section on the isotop. If u open this soft U'll understand why I'm so curious about it. It has a lot functions I dont understand and are diferent from the basic functions the dithereing has and really just by hearing the diference is not obvoius. the thing is that the dithering there is divided by 8bits, 16bits, 12bits(??? why), 20bits(why)and 24bits. I mean, first sure, I thought it was the dithering in general but when I should use 12bits, when 20... I mean this dithering in ISotop is something diferent... really this confuses me much. But anyway.. I undesrtood I must go much more profoundly with the manual...           Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Jun 12, 2006 19:57
Quote:

On 2006-06-12 19:06, D-Alien wrote:
the thing is that the dithering there is divided by 8bits, 16bits, 12bits(??? why), 20bits(why)and 24bits.



Arn't those just the destination word length? So if you are going to CD, choose 16 bit. If you are going to 8 bit, choose 8 bit etc.

Like I said, I don't use this program so, yes, the manual is your friend.

UnderTow
D-Alien
Oxidelic

Started Topics :  51
Posts :  619
Posted : Jun 12, 2006 23:52
yeah. at the end this question was just for curiosity. the manual sais just that all this dithering is when one want to change the bitrate, but its not specific when should aply 20bit? anyway it sounds too strange..


But I have some real problem I've encountered. I have to send some tracks for mastering. I was told they mus not be compressed, so no master chain i have to apply. I've mixed the tracks pretty well, bass and kik sounds all the time, all instruments are audible, good stereo image, etc etc... but! In some of the channels I've applyed limiter (L2). it is on the native channel of the instrument, have applied some limiter on the hihats and the snares too. but I think this was an error. althoug I didnt applyed limiters or compresors on the master channel i have some on other channels. Thinking it now, i seems an error for me.. I mean if I apply Limiter, on a single channel, the same becomes useless for mastering? Is that right?...
          Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com
e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  71
Posts :  933
Posted : Jun 13, 2006 14:43
try replacing then with compressors. i do use limiters sometimes in the kick and bass group but with minimal attenuation.

PS: if you want some err agressive hats and snares try distorting them instead of limiting. tube distortion is my favorite for this. you can also over-compress\limit the source as a send effect and mix it with the original to keep the dynamics.
texmex


Started Topics :  5
Posts :  189
Posted : Jun 13, 2006 17:30
Quote:

On 2006-06-12 23:52, D-Alien wrote:
yeah. at the end this question was just for curiosity. the manual sais just that all this dithering is when one want to change the bitrate, but its not specific when should aply 20bit? anyway it sounds too strange..



Sometimes less is more (going lofi), sometimes space is precious. For example a hardware drum synth called MachineDrum UW eats 12-bit samples... Maybe the creators of Ozone didn't want to limit the bitdepths to certain predefined ones. I can't think of application that would use 20 bits, but certainly there is one.

BTW, after the Ozone has done its work, the word length is still the same as the original. The less significant bits do not contain any information, so they can be discarded later on. So if you run it for 24-bit material in Sound Forge etc and dither to, say, 16 bits, you still get 24-bit output but you can save the output in 16-bit format (wav etc) without any dithering applied (as it is already done by the Ozone).
D-Alien
Oxidelic

Started Topics :  51
Posts :  619
Posted : Jun 14, 2006 16:07
@e-motion

wow man, wowo thank u!! its really so. I've noticed that, at last. because even i didnt use any effect on the master chain, the wave representation of the track was very pequliar, as it was passed by a normalizer (limiter). and this became from all the synth that I've been appling limiters. so later thay would be imposible to master as the limiter must be used just one time over a signal. The only way I can give this material is, playing with compressors, and not on evry channel but just the channels that need it (samples, percussions), but the real game is actually automating evrey momet of the track, automating the volume and the pan so that all the sounds can enter in the box without saturation and with full range of dynamics. The only really stron compression I apply over the kik and the bass... Thank You One more time bro

@texmex
wow man U have cleared a doubt that I had last night. I try to master the 24bit material with ozone, some presets use the dithering others not, but if I export the 24bit wav in logic audio and when I'm finished with the configuration in Ozone i must disable the dithering that logic offers. and the doubt is cleared. Thanks man


          Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com
felon-collie


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  34
Posted : Jun 15, 2006 14:29
Once and for all, I would like to know how much of the low frequencies i should cutoff ...
I usually highpass the kick and bassline (individualy) @ 40Hz is that right ?
and should any lowpass be applied anywhere ?
Also I found out that a good way of avoiding problems (at least for me) lies in te writing stage... I used to have too low piched basslines in D ! now that i write my tracks in F or G I have much less trouble in achieving a fat sound !
orange
Fat Data

Started Topics :  154
Posts :  3918
Posted : Jun 16, 2006 08:40
high pass a kick in 40hz i dont think its the best for a fat kick! bass on the other hand could be highpassed at 40hz!


orange           http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic
Raoul V
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  583
Posted : Jun 16, 2006 14:01
Quote:

On 2006-06-15 14:29, felon-collie wrote:
Once and for all, I would like to know how much of the low frequencies i should cutoff ...
I usually highpass the kick and bassline (individualy) @ 40Hz is that right ?



if i was u id high pass the kick at 30hz... theoretically i believe 26 hertz is where we first 'hear' it, feel would be a better word maybe..

if ur kick is at 50 hz, try passing the bass at 50hz so as to give the kick room... or even if u dont pass you could cut this area using eq..
UnderTow


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  1448
Posted : Jun 18, 2006 01:22

Not all high pass filters are the same. There are differences in slope (6dB/oct, 12dB/oct ... 48 dB/oct). There are also differences in phase response. Some high pass filters set to 30Hz can have effects on the phase of the signal all the way up to 2Khz or more. Some are resonant, some are not.

Also keep in mind that these filters are not brick walls. There is still stuff below the high pass filter cutoff frequency. Usualy, the cutoff frequency is equivalent to the -3 dB point. So if you set your filter at 30Hz, it means that the output is 3dB down at 30Hz.

In theory, if you have very good monitoring and accoustics, I would say just trust your ears. In practise most of us don't have the type of monitoring and/or accoustics to really be able to judge what is going on at these very low frequencies.

The best solution is to stay on the safe side and keep the high pass filter quite low. (30 Hz or lower) Or even better, if your material is getting mastered by a pro, leave the low-end untouched and let the mastering engineer set things right.

I am talking mainly about the kick or a filter on the stereo bus. The bassline can usualy be filtered a bit higher than the kick. Whenever possible, use a linear phase hipass filter as this will keep things clean and punchy at the bottom end.

UnderTow
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