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Son Kite on playing live in trance
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Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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1772
Posted : Dec 2, 2006 00:21
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
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95
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5380
Posted : Dec 2, 2006 00:26
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Magox
IsraTrance Junior Member
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20
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2095
Posted : Dec 2, 2006 00:28
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exactly!!
now we are getting somewhere.....
 "On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish one’s own faults rather than to judge others" |
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
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2314
Posted : Dec 2, 2006 08:28
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and im sure that some of the artists feel "slighted" because they feel that they are giving "more" to the public then some of the other "artists".....and that they are recieving "less" from the organizers and audience.....and i can understand that frustration.....
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i see this and..
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
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2314
Posted : Dec 2, 2006 08:29
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On 2006-12-01 20:28, Colin OOOD wrote:
IMO one of the main reasons this sort of thing goes on is lack of education, amongst both partygoers and promoters. I'm sure if people knew that whilst they were watching their favourite artist hunched over his laptop, grooving to his tracks pumping out of the speakers, he was actually getting paid £800 of THEIR money for spending an hour working on his Myspace page (this is a real example, unfortunately perpetrated by a friend of mine) there would be a short-lived realignment of adulation followed by a more realistic approach to event advertising. Perhaps those of us who care about honesty, integrity and not lying to those who put food on our tables should start a new thread here listing artist names who we've shared a stage with, who we have seen play pre-rendered sets. Whaddya reckon?
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....this as well.
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Dec 5, 2006 22:53
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so i would happily propose the categories:
"Producer" and "DJ" to differentiate people playing music they make vs someone playing a collection of others productions.
i think this is regardless of the playback media- as many dj's now start to play from computers... and many producers happily play their music from cd's.
i would be ok with adding a third category "live" to indicate band-like performance of everything LIVE minus backing tracks of any kind. sequencers and arpeggiators are probably illegal here as well so that means we need a 4th category. not to mention a category for when we make our music "live" out of premade peices...so a 5th category there...
organizers will ignore this of course and keep putting "live" as they always have so who cares get on with the party.
i think this whole "wannabe star" rap is just ridiculous- listen DOOD- if someone is playing from 1-24 hours of music THEY MADE- then THAT is what they are getting paid "800 euros of your money" for not making their myspace page nice- although that helps get your noticed-.
i think this "ripoff" mentality should cease in regards to artists and the presentation of their work. its stupidity like that that brings artists to make giant foam phony instruments and pretend to play them.( i think you know what big act i'm talking about) and i dont blame them one bit!
as for artists- let them mix any elements of live and preproduced they wish- as long as its original music they are presenting i dont think anyone has anything to complain about.
you cant get it anywhere else but from the artist right?
it was presumably some track(s) of theirs that got people excited enought to book them in the first place no?
and stop watching the music person anyway- and trance out man..i thought we were smashing our idols of "rock gawds" -i would propose the "skilled professional" attitude instead of such a kiss-ass view of your culture icons. turn off the tv.
ps: if you want a "performer" i know a great jazz guitarist who plays with an echo and makes what sounds like a whole band from just his guitar! i dont want to dance to it all night though thanks...
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Dec 5, 2006 23:08
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On 2006-12-02 08:29, *Karma Cola* wrote:
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On 2006-12-01 20:28, Colin OOOD wrote:
IMO one of the main reasons this sort of thing goes on is lack of education, amongst both partygoers and promoters. I'm sure if people knew that whilst they were watching their favourite artist hunched over his laptop, grooving to his tracks pumping out of the speakers, he was actually getting paid £800 of THEIR money for spending an hour working on his Myspace page (this is a real example, unfortunately perpetrated by a friend of mine) there would be a short-lived realignment of adulation followed by a more realistic approach to event advertising. Perhaps those of us who care about honesty, integrity and not lying to those who put food on our tables should start a new thread here listing artist names who we've shared a stage with, who we have seen play pre-rendered sets. Whaddya reckon?
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....this as well.
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and then what? you will bitch at them for not playing "live"?
well then Colin better start with his mate- and that won't go over well the next time they chat over a tea...
what if they were jamming on top of a prerendered backing track?
while i feel that its important to be able to change the flow of your set to fit the moment- i don't think this is a categorical thing this "live" or if it is then i will insist of the classical definition- where every note of every single part is triggered in real time by a human being. that is not done in psy trance because it would sound like total shit. i think you missed my previous posts (JK)
listen- dont go thinking you can pass judgement on something this complex with such a simple category...
this whole thing about "unmasking" not live acts would mean that everyone leaves the building except the ambient jam bands and the tribal types... noodling on top doesn't cut it for me sorry. if your computer crashes and the sound doesnt' keep going sounding just like it did, then its not LIVE to me sorry.
what do you want from a liveset? you want to hear new good tracks they just made right? not them just noodling around with a nord right? (unless they are Filteria in which case its what you would expect- expert Nord Noodling) a live remix of a track or some weaving of bits together to recreate the song live perhaps?
maybe some midi drum pads, a keyboard, a midi rubber ball to throw to the dancers... whatever additional stuff on top-= some extra instruments or loops...
so ok we call this "live" but lets face it- its not really "live" anything except some way of mitigating the ego-centric desire for immediate control- like driving a car.
maybe give you a little steering wheel like baby gets in her car seat when mommy drives the car... |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Dec 5, 2006 23:25
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On 2006-12-01 22:35, Colin OOOD wrote:
If the artist is playing his tracks without any serious live elements (and I don't count the occasional bleep or white noise swoosh here), I'd vote for it being billed as a 'producer DJ set' - whether it was being played from CD or laptop.
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no good. thats when a producer plays a bunch of other peoples music as a dj set. its quite usual actually...
ok listen COlin-
i understand through friends that you do a fair bit of live on top of your premade music as a live set- i imagine as you tour for your new album you will wish to present entire songs from it and not just noodle around- however well you do it- perhaps you will make special remixes to play "live" even. regardless- don't make me call you on this too harshly- you are utilizing some form of playback. you play live with it perhaps?
i understand you have a strength in this area and wish to emphasize it.
i understand SOn Kite does as well- how this thread started.
I make lots of music and like to weave lots of bits of things i make together to make a story- i do this weaving live. i add elements on top- sometimes as little as a swoosh! (all that may be needed at that moment) sometimes as much as playing leads live depending...
i, however, dont like to get all high-and-mighty about it and say "its LIVE and all you mofos better step up or back off"
because i know that if any jazz musicians came into the party they would KNOW in a second that its not being played LIVE as in LIVE. ( the musicians definition- no sequencers, drum machines, arpeggiators,loops, premade audio,hands only)
so for trance- we have to settle on a suitable definition of "live"
where do you draw the line?
if you can seriously tell me what you consider "seriously live" elements- and how many "seriously live" elements it takes to make it "live" then great- i dont think its as binary as being pregnant im sorry.
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Dec 6, 2006 00:22
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for that matter- one could easily bitch about artists who only play their already-released album - or material any psyhead could already possess...
if i go to a party - what im hoping for musically- is to hear an artist do their thing- play their music- put it together how its supposed to be heard- and put forth something from themselves in a way that i get a sense about them and their music.
mostly im at a party to dance and be with people and feel the vibe. if im there to play i want to bring all that i make and try to make something sensible for the vibe.
after a while going to festivals you become familiar with most of the tracks most dj's are playing...
its nice to hear brand new music or at least a new angle on the familiar. its also nice if they respond to the vibe. if its a producer playing their own music and can respond to the vibe and change where the journey goes based on that i am satisfied with the word "live" while knowing its not "live" in any musicians sense. i am happy with this as any amount of "live" is usually in direct proportion to production quality, complexity, and/or the overall big picture.
i realize that there may be ways of driving this beast (psytrance) around in real time-
and this also involves compromises between "live" and "autopilot"
anyway- party organizers will keep using the word "live" and unless we have scenewide consensus (yeah right- like when i tried to stop the word "killer" hahaha) to stop using it in reference to producer sets of any kind- then we might as well accept it.
as far as making all producers do more noodling on top of their playback, or rearrange their playback bits in pieces and loops etc.. good luck and i dont think its necessary nor helps the quality of the music.
i do wish the scene were more discerning about overall quality but oh well im a bitch get used to it
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 6, 2006 01:10
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Now who's got a rant on!
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On 2006-12-05 23:25, ocelot wrote:
ok listen COlin-
i understand through friends that you do a fair bit of live on top of your premade music as a live set- i imagine as you tour for your new album you will wish to present entire songs from it and not just noodle around- however well you do it- perhaps you will make special remixes to play "live" even. regardless- don't make me call you on this too harshly- you are utilizing some form of playback. you play live with it perhaps?
i understand you have a strength in this area and wish to emphasize it.
i understand SOn Kite does as well- how this thread started.
I make lots of music and like to weave lots of bits of things i make together to make a story- i do this weaving live. i add elements on top- sometimes as little as a swoosh! (all that may be needed at that moment) sometimes as much as playing leads live depending...
i, however, dont like to get all high-and-mighty about it and say "its LIVE and all you mofos better step up or back off"
because i know that if any jazz musicians came into the party they would KNOW in a second that its not being played LIVE as in LIVE. ( the musicians definition- no sequencers, drum machines, arpeggiators,loops, premade audio,hands only)
so for trance- we have to settle on a suitable definition of "live"
where do you draw the line?
if you can seriously tell me what you consider "seriously live" elements- and how many "seriously live" elements it takes to make it "live" then great- i dont think its as binary as being pregnant im sorry.
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No worries Ocelot, you can call me as harshly on this as you like as you won't be saying anything I haven't already said on Isra about our sets. On this very thread I previously said that we have a strong playback element, in fact I think this is pretty much essential to get a proper 'mastered' sound. Our playback consists of full mixes (either release versions or other versions); our live element comes from the fact that we have three musicians improvising on top (and I would strongly dispute that sympathetic improv on top of full mixes detracts from the tracks if done well, which I believe we do). The live elements are processed (EQ, compression, etc) to match the mastered sound of the tracks, and carefully mixed on stage so as not to overwhelm the recording, whilst remaining clearly audible.
It's interesting that since I first commented on your live set (and I apologise if I came across a bit RARR about it) your subsequent posts have included the fact that you often play live elements on top of your tracks, as we do, and from this new info I have no problems in agreeing with you that you do, indeed, play live - simply because you're playing live instruments. However many people do not - at all - and to describe these kinds of sets as live to me seems disingenuous at best; I repeat that it is this point AND THIS POINT ONLY that has got me so worked up in the past - I don't think I've ever said anything like "its LIVE and all you mofos better step up or back off". All I've ever wanted is honesty in advertising. Of course, there's no hope in hell of getting people to be rigorously honest about this now; things have been this way for too long and there's too much money at stake, and it's the realisation of this that has led me to refrain from continuing my futile rant. (It's also interesting that both times this thread seems to have died recently it's been you who has resurrected it to write in your own defence  ).
Back on topic...
By 'seriously live' I mean 'material additions to the set performed in real time'. We can debate for hours on the exact meaning of 'material' in this case but really I think we all know what is meant. 'Swooshes only' will not cut it.
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ocelot wrote:
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On 2006-12-01 22:35, Colin OOOD wrote:
If the artist is playing his tracks without any serious live elements (and I don't count the occasional bleep or white noise swoosh here), I'd vote for it being billed as a 'producer DJ set' - whether it was being played from CD or laptop.
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no good. thats when a producer plays a bunch of other peoples music as a dj set. its quite usual actually...
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...and called a 'DJ set'. Emphasising the 'producer' aspect of it tells the audience that there is something different about the set compared to a regular DJ set, ie. the fact that the DJ is playing tracks she has produced.
I don't watch TV, by the way. Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 6, 2006 01:21
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MॐZC4L1†0
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
375
Posted : Dec 6, 2006 07:28
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On 2006-07-12 11:51, Bom*shankar wrote:
Just got the Son Kite newsletter.
Here's a quote:
" Playback live set in the trance scene is as accepted as djs playing with cd players,
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whats wrong with playing with cdj´s??? Please xplain me
Memento Mori |
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Raoul V
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
583
Posted : Dec 6, 2006 09:40
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whats wrong with playing with cdj´s??? Please xplain me
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from this thread, i gather u look cool as u stand infront of a bunch of disconnected hardware...
to me a live set is an artists original work, ONLY HIS, with synth, drum or guitar solos's being played in realtime...
now whether artist A's rig looks cooler than artist B.. i dont think most care really...
we just want to fuckign dance, dont the artists get that already...
much love
raoul
ps colin and ocelot, you both made terrific arguments i think.. but id like to add, the sooner people realise that its cuz they r tripping balls that the whole big rig, and 50 musicians looks cool the better.. if they turned their back to the stage and danced... does it really matter?? i dunno bout most of u but im there for the sound, i dont care who's driving, or what their driving as long as its a good ride. |
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rajatrao5
Inactive User
Started Topics :
17
Posts :
555
Posted : Dec 6, 2006 10:41
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Completely agree with Ocelot.
Respect to you Aaron, Iowa was a quite a party |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 6, 2006 18:14
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It's not about who looks cooler on stage. It's not about the boosting of personal ego. It's not about "I'm a bigger star than you/I've got more equipment than you/I get more people dancing than you". It's not about "I don't care who's playing as long as it's good music". It's not even about "We're all so crazy fucked up on drugs we can't even see the stage and might as well be at home with the hifi and the UV striplight".
It's about whether the person on stage is doing what the advertising for the party says they will be doing. It's about whether individuals have the guts to admit that they prefer to DJ than to play live. It's about integrity, and honesty, and all those good things that we all make so much of a fuss about in every other area of our lives.
There is absolutely no shame in being able to write amazing music without being able to play a musical instrument. Pretending that your DJ set is a live performance however is a different matter.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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