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Son Kite on playing live in trance
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 11:32
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On 2006-12-01 07:59, Magox wrote:
its not that i dont care.......its that i care about other things .....and the emphasis on whether an act is 'truely' "live" is not my focus when i am at an event.....
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That's fair enough, from your viewpoint as a partygoer. If you don't care whether or not you're being lied to, who is anyone to deny you that 
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| i do not 'waste' my time critiquing and trying to find every little negative.........life is too short.....id rather concentrate on other things.....for instance......the MUSIC.....the VIBE......the LOCATION.....my beautiful FRIENDS.....my FEELING.....DANCING.....and more DANCING till i cant dance anymore.....and my EXPERIENCE........ |
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 A true raver. However different things are important to different people. As a companion raver and someone who puts his heart and soul into giving people like you the EXPERIENCE that means so much to them, is Seb from Son Kite not entitled to pass comment when he sees his fellow ravers being decieved and taken advantage of? You'd rather be in the dark whilst people reap the rewards of laziness and deception? I should add here that, apart from some aspects of politics, this is one of the only issues that gets me going in this way. Like you, I do not 'waste' my time critiquing and trying to find every little negative. It's a beautiful world out there; lets make our part of it just that little bit better and more honest, hey?
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| to call artists "fake".....is very disheartening.....and disappointing..... |
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...and not what anyone here has done, really. There are many talented people making music in this scene, and whether or not they can put on a performance that includes live elements, they are worthy of being called 'artists'. The only 'fake' thing under discussion here are the performances of some/many of them who use the word 'live' about their performances without having any 'live' elements. Your comment is provocative and raises the temperature unneccessarily. If there's any disappointment it should be when you ask the artist "So you played live yeah? It sounded really good, what was live about it?" and get the answer "er... nothing".
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| you would like to think.....that in our "clan" our "culture".....we are more understanding people......less critical and less judgemental.....jaja.....but i guess thats me in "la la fairyland".......the reality is "people are people"......everywhere...... |
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It sounds like you're saying "it's ok mate, you can lie to me, I won't judge you for it". I'm sorry but that does sound like la la fairlyland to me. Constructive criticism is how we as people and we as artists progrress and improve our lives and our work, and it is the only way our scene can improve. Obviously not everything is worthy of criticism in this way, you've just got to judge for yourself what's worth it and what isn't. Oops, I forgot, we're not supposed to judge anything, are we 
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| positivity like negativity spread like wild fire.....and one by one.....it will spread......and it starts with me.....
peace n energy |
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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illusions
Erebus
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
626
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 12:42
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if i were to have synthesizers and play them live to do the blooby bleep as Colin suggested i would have some synthy sounding stuff. for what i make (not the melodic stuff i mean) i need some really twisted organic sound- the sound you can only get with audio- slicing dicing morphing twisted my synth lines as audio files- ok?
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Ocelot - I do agree with a lot of what you had said. However - I am not sure that just because your music is'nt melody based its not possible to play it live.
Look at the article someone posted earlier on Tim Exile's Reaktor setup - a lot of processing (even the glitchy/sliced/stretched/reversed) could be done by Reaktor ensembles that you would trigger on different parts of your track during a set. Your not playing any of the instruments live, but your doing some of the processing live, which does count I think.
This is ofcourse not a personal post about your liveset, I don't know what you do, just trying to look at different angles for the genre of music that your music fits into. |
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Aida Noridania
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
126
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 12:49
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well technically spoken i see live often on the scene of trance as "he plays his own music" how he does it is a tad less important as that mostly depends of with how many you play (alone or with two or in group)
one artist can never squeeze a whole track live, and certainly not "non stop" as you need to load your presets into your synth load your song,.... okay artist like sonkite and other more advanced and with more experience will already have that possibility, but if i see "live act" i first of all take it as "he brings his music"
unless you call it technically something else
and through the whole discussion that question rises
if it may not be called "live" what is it then? (semi live as how i refer it or....???? |
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TrippyJohnny
Inactive User
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
445
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 13:17
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Certain people in this topic misunderstand a few things. This is not about if a person is a skilled music maker (produce/engineer or whatever) in the studio.
It is about unprofessional party organizers such as SoulClipse (it should be known by now) and too many artists who have gained fame and sometimes also fortune by standing on a stage behind a laptop pressing the mouse. While people have bought tickets and thought they was going to see someone play live.
When does it stop? When does the psytrance scene become just a big more aware of common known things such as the fact that there's absolutely nothing live in most of the scene's so-called live performances. When does people start to question this obvious very easy way into becoming a "star"? When does people start to make the artists and organizers responsible for ripping off people?
Are people really that naive, non-caring, or on so many drugs that they silently accept that organizers and artist rip them off and give them fake on the stage? Or do they simply just not care because it's not about being genuine or authentic anymore as long as the music the listen to have a kik and a bass?
I am more and more mesmerized about the level of unprofessionalism and obvious "we dont care" attitude the psyscene have evolved into.
Maybe the fact is that the scene has been flooded with so many wannabe and copy & paste artists, labels, organizers and non demanding "killer kik and bass" crowds the recent years that people have forgotten what professionalism and respect for the music is all about.
http://www.peopleagainstpeace.net/ |
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Magox
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
2095
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 13:46
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as far as constructively criticising people.....im all for it......
i do not see calling an artist "fake" as being constructive....there are many other ways to communicate your point without getting in my view "nasty".....
we have so many words that we can use in the English language that enable us to communicate our points....and if we do it "constructively" as mr. Colin has pointed out.....imo it would go a much longer way.....
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Without a mouse and their laptops they would be nobody and deff. not be standing on a stage like the next wannabe supserstar...
this comment right here.....is a comment made out of malice and frustration.....it is evident......referring to someone as wanting to be a the next "wannabe superstar".....based on the artist not having the immediate "ability" to perform a "live act" by his standards is more than harsh.....its outright "critical" and "unkind"......the purpose of this comment was to degrade and to be rather unpleasant....
you know.....these artists or "wannabe stars" as some people may categorize them......work very hard at what they do.....maybe some more than others.....and to "blast" them for their efforts is'nt good for anyone.....
to lead them in a certain "direction" by criticising them constructively is something else......but this is not happening (generally speaking) on this thread or many others.....
dont think that people dont recognize (for the most part) the efforts of a talented "live act".......i love the music of SON KITE.....Son Kite is one of my favorite artists and played a large role in my "mental development" in the progressive scene going years back.....
and not only for their music, but for their "live act" as well, Son Kite is recognized and respected and loved by many people.....and for me they will alwayzs be remembered as "pioneers"....
and for you mr. Colin.....Ive never personally seen you play "live"....but i have heard your music.....and i do respect that you have a more "complex" "live act".....i have heard this from many people not just through this forum, but also from friends of mine as well......
and im sure that some of the artists feel "slighted" because they feel that they are giving "more" to the public then some of the other "artists".....and that they are recieving "less" from the organizers and audience.....and i can understand that frustration.....
im sure that you are seeing less bookings....because your "live act" may be more expensive.......and maybe some of the organizers are not willing to pay for it.....and when they refer to other artists that you feel have 1/3 of the 'live act talent' and 'structure' you feel that the organizers are getting away with robbery by what you would say is "lieing" and "decieving" to the public.....and that you are disappointed that the "public" doesnt seem to take note of this.....because obviously they seem to keep supporting the events......and that the "artists" are being recognized for their what you probably would consider their "unfounded" achievements and skills.....and this frustration i also understand as well.....
but the fact of the matter is.....that it is not unfounded....maybe the question can be up for debate if their "act" is truely a "live act".....but these artists have achieved something and do have skills.....
if they attract people to events.....this means that people want to hear their music....and therefore imo have "achieved" in providing a "finished" product.....because it was the "music" that the artist wanted to provide to the public....and when they hear him play at the festival.....it is the "finished" product that the partygoer will end up listening to.....
its difficult.....and may not even seem "fair".....but, we live in a world where "unfair" things happen all the time.....every second of the day.....
I do not complain that Ronaldo has the skill in futbol like no other.....i do not complain that Shaquille Oneal was Born with tremendous size and agility.......I do not complain that Britney Spears has a following 1000 times more than the entire "psy" scene put together.....i do not believe that she has the "talent" of many artists....yet she reaps many benifits......IT IS WHAT IT IS.....and it is our 'responsability' imo to keep up with the world.....to be "light on our feet" to be able to adjust.....if not.....
you will be left standing behind.....and what will remain.....is some "sour" grapes and resentful feelings towards others and the world itself......and this is no way imo to "move forward"......
dont worry.....if you are truely a talented "live act".....people recognize this....maybe not everyone, maybe not every organizer.....but people do recognize this......
respect
"On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish one’s own faults rather than to judge others" |
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Magox
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
2095
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 14:06
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[quote]
Are people really that naive, non-caring, or on so many drugs that they silently accept that organizers and artist rip them off and give them fake on the stage? Or do they simply just not care because it's not about being genuine or authentic anymore as long as the music the listen to have a kik and a bass?
I am more and more mesmerized about the level of unprofessionalism and obvious "we dont care" attitude the psyscene have evolved into.
Maybe the fact is that the scene has been flooded with so many wannabe and copy & paste artists, labels, organizers and non demanding "killer kik and bass" crowds the recent years that people have forgotten what professionalism and respect for the music is all about.
this is what i am talking about......lets break this down......
first off......do you really think that you are "motivating" people here? jaja.......i dont think so......your definitely not motivating me.......and i would like to consider myself a pretty fair person......
call me crazy.......but referring to people as "naive, without care and doped up on drugs" is not going to win over many people.....and your point will not get you far......due to your lack of "motivational" skills......it is clear that you are no sort of inspiration...... a person that "inspires" is a person that has other believe that they can do something and makes them want to do something.......these comments "fail" to achieve this.....
and as far as what this scene has "evolved too".......jajajaja.........
this is pretty funny.......are you serious?????
your telling me that back in the 90's the artists were more "complex" then today? jajajaja......thats the funniest thing i have heard today.......i remember when the djs at the parties use to barely even know how to mix.....tracks would be all off center......not aligned.......and at some of the parties the dj would play a track and basically would wait for it to finish to play the next......
and you know what? i loved these parties....... because in the environment that i at least had the pleasure to "experience".......no one really cared......we were there to have fun.......enjoy one another.....and least of all, look to our neighbor to critize them........and then when we left the party..........life went to normal again........and hopefully.......just hopefully, i would be able to bring back some of those good vibes back with me to my "real life".........
and btw........this was before the times of the "killer kik and bass".........
"On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish one’s own faults rather than to judge others" |
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TrippyJohnny
Inactive User
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
445
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 14:40
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Oh Lord he dared to critisise the scene 
I guess the truth is not always welcome. I do not see anything negative in my post. I express how I and obviously many other people see things.
Mallice and frustration? LOL I guess that is a popular way of arguing when someone dare to critisise something. Then they are frustrated, jealous etc. ect.
It's way more sad and negative IMO when people defend artists and organizers who rip of people on the dancefloor.
So no I will not be "political correct" when the fact is it is indeed 100% fake to stand on a stage pretending you play live and get paid lots of money for playing live when all you do is doing playback while you try to look busy playing. If the word "fake" make you feel my way of posting is wrong then sorry. It's your problem. Not mine.
And last but not least. It's a common fact that a lot of people do not really care about the music. They need the music to support the drugs. Hence my comment about the KIK and bass crowd. Again sorry for telling the truth. I guess it's so much easier to close your eyes and pretend everything is dandy fine and rosey red.
http://www.peopleagainstpeace.net/ |
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neuromantik
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
593
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 16:42
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Hey.... magox..... you..... need..... to..... understand..... that...... no..... one..... is..... calling..... artists...... fake.....Only...... their...... live...... acts......If...... they...... can't....... take........ constructive....... critisism....... they...... should........ change....... profession...... IMO.......
Ok coming back to reality, why should promoters, and by transposition party goers, have to pay a lot of money (several thousand usually when including airfare) for talented artists to simply playback their albums? Just because your views on music equate simply to a succession of sounds and pre-arranged tracks doesn't mean it applies to other people.
You suggested that if people aren't happy then they simply should not attend parties. Bollocks to that! If I want to comment on a party experience I paid for it's my right to not be jaded and accept things the way they are and suggest ways we can make things BETTER. |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 20:28
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On 2006-12-01 13:46, Magox wrote:
I do not complain that Britney Spears has a following 1000 times more than the entire "psy" scene put together.....i do not believe that she has the "talent" of many artists....yet she reaps many benifits...... |
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Britney has been singing and performing LIVE in public since she was 8 years old. If that's not an indication of talent I don't know what is.
The word 'live' has a very specific meaning in music. It means that the performers on stage are playing instruments, and that the audience can hear those performers playing those instruments. This meaning applies whether the performers are playing rock, classical, jazz or psytrance. What is so difficult to understand here? In ANY other genre of music the 'psytrance attitude' to live performance would have the 'performers' booed off stage.
IMO one of the main reasons this sort of thing goes on is lack of education, amongst both partygoers and promoters. I'm sure if people knew that whilst they were watching their favourite artist hunched over his laptop, grooving to his tracks pumping out of the speakers, he was actually getting paid £800 of THEIR money for spending an hour working on his Myspace page (this is a real example, unfortunately perpetrated by a friend of mine) there would be a short-lived realignment of adulation followed by a more realistic approach to event advertising. Perhaps those of us who care about honesty, integrity and not lying to those who put food on our tables should start a new thread here listing artist names who we've shared a stage with, who we have seen play pre-rendered sets. Whaddya reckon?
Ok perhaps that would be a little too confrontational but seriously, something needs to happen IMO or we'll forever be just children playing wannabe rockstar. Just remember before you rip my head off, it's not the act of doing a playback 'live' set itself that I'm pissing against the wind with here, it's the deceitful billing of such a set as 'live' in the first place.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 21:15
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i dont have power to actually read now 11 pages or so.. but anyone mentioned that alot of "live" show today are straight playback ? also in rock band.. and no one whining that it wasnt them actualy on stage and what is the diffrence if its realy "real" ..
anyhow , as 1 man show , its hard to realy play ALL live , might be impossible , or outcome aint so good as edit for hours. one or 2 sounds in track is perfectly honest as i see it , unless promoter want to pay for extra 10 players , includ practice for 2 month before the show.. sorry , if 3 peaple can actualy play it live perfect , it probably very simple music. i did it 5 years as guitar player in 2 bands , and to get realy to what i do with editing.. well not realy possible.. so i just play my own "special live remixes" so the music is diffrent then normal cd.. as well add fx on top of the tracks . give me more peaple it will be more and more live , but less then 10 players with the best electronic equip wont do the trick. ok , 7 (ozric did, perfect).
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http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Aida Noridania
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
126
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 22:10
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well to add up i will give more info and this may be long, as i see the same thing happening as on the belgian board: okay artists like sonkite that put a lot of work in their act do deserve from the organizers that bit of apprehension that it requires a bit more then just a mixing console, and i agree that when i see someone play more "live" that it gives a deeper impact as then you indeed got more interaction by default at our board in belgium we all came toi an agreement that yes we know what the people want to say, but then how are we going to solve it?
for example is someone on his laptop controlling with his mouse all his softsynths less "live" then someone playing an instrument? yes people see him just clicking with a mouse, but on what is he clicking?
don't get me wrong i know that some abuse this but you got that indeed everywhere and yes even worldwide famous rockband do playback from times to times (watched a concert of Depeche mode twice as fan in the early 90's their both concerts were the same, only the singer sung live and the drummer played live but the rest was all programmed and for the price i payed it i could have easyly gone to 5 good tranceparties with basicly 12 live achts... so really a rip off? i don't know.... i guess it comes to what one feels from himself first of all if one doesn't feel ripped off where's the probleml? i think more people then you think know it is "fake" or like i say "semi live"
anyway i was a bit dwelling off... but what i noticed was that yes it is not fair for the artists that really do that effort to bring it live, but had we a consensus on how then to call less professional live acts? no... do i read here the way to make everyone happy and say "these starters need theen a way to explain their semi live set? no...
on that moment you keep going in a endless loop that will basicly just show honest and well founded observations, but nowhere a sollution is handed to "kill this controversy"
this is not in a negative way that i say this but let's see if we can as one get something constructive out of this instead of walking around in circles about this importance...
so once again... how would you call then the artist with his laptop... live? semi live? or_____? (fill in the line how you would like to see it presented on a flyer)
as in our discussion i asked that too but nobody gave me an answer to this... |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 22:35
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neuromantik
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
593
Posted : Dec 1, 2006 23:14
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On 2006-12-01 20:28, Colin OOOD wrote:
The word 'live' has a very specific meaning in music. It means that the performers on stage are playing instruments, and that the audience can hear those performers playing those instruments. This meaning applies whether the performers are playing rock, classical, jazz or psytrance. What is so difficult to understand here? In ANY other genre of music the 'psytrance attitude' to live performance would have the 'performers' booed off stage.
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Couldn't have said it better myself What we are arguing is the misappropriation of the term "live", not the artists' talent or effort.
For a replacement term I would say "psynissage" (taken from the term "vernissage") What do you think? |
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Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
1772
Posted : Dec 2, 2006 00:11
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The "live act" in psytrance is hard to pull off, and the few that can do it should be considered very skilled. There's so much detail that goes into making a track in the studio..even using ableton is difficult to recreate a live act to the quality of an album..for me the idea is to get as close as possible to my studio tracks.
What I personally consider a live act is when someone plays loops and lines from their album where you have one from one track going and one from another..basically to take all of the elements of the tracks you've done and combine them into other songs when you play live. I think like this while approaching my live act because It's one of the characteristics I expect to hear in a good live act.
There are a ton of people that do get paid to stand on a stage and dance around, as stated. There isn't any shame in good DJing though, because there obviously isn't a shortage of music here.
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On 2006-12-01 20:28, Colin OOOD wrote:
The word 'live' has a very specific meaning in music. It means that the performers on stage are playing instruments, and that the audience can hear those performers playing those instruments. This meaning applies whether the performers are playing rock, classical, jazz or psytrance. What is so difficult to understand here? In ANY other genre of music the 'psytrance attitude' to live performance would have the 'performers' booed off stage.
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I would say that what is considered a live act within psytrance and electronic music is more of "improv conducting" then..which takes skill, as does producing good music. Some people into the more "instrumental" types of music tell me that they completely understand how they would go about making a track..I have some empathy for that mindset being a guitarist for much longer than a producer, but that's just never the case. Maybe considering yourself a performer with a laptop and synths can be considering yourself a little bit "colder" of a performer..I can see how people would criticize not being able to hold your instrument and view it as something really important to you when you're dealing with a bunch of software and a computer that you'll end up replacing in a few years.
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Magox
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
2095
Posted : Dec 2, 2006 00:16
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On 2006-12-01 16:42, neuromantik wrote:
Hey.... magox..... you..... need..... to..... understand..... that...... no..... one..... is..... calling..... artists...... fake.....Only...... their...... live...... acts......If...... they...... can't....... take........ constructive....... critisism....... they...... should........ change....... profession...... IMO.......
Ok coming back to reality, why should promoters, and by transposition party goers, have to pay a lot of money (several thousand usually when including airfare) for talented artists to simply playback their albums? Just because your views on music equate simply to a succession of sounds and pre-arranged tracks doesn't mean it applies to other people.
You suggested that if people aren't happy then they simply should not attend parties. Bollocks to that! If I want to comment on a party experience I paid for it's my right to not be jaded and accept things the way they are and suggest ways we can make things BETTER.
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i suppose that is where we differ in opinion....you believe that the criticism has been constructive.....and i dont.
and we differ in opinion on the emphasis of the "importance" of feeling "cheated" at an event.... you feel cheated....... and i dont.
i have always enjoyed myself.....and am very thankful that i have been able to enjoy such great "artists" of music that i love.....and i truely feel grateful....
"On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish one’s own faults rather than to judge others" |
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