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Son Kite on playing live in trance
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kazuku
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 29, 2006 13:27
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Hehe nice discussion, kept me hooked till the end. Both sides have valid points, and in the end it all boils down to the definition of "live" and how different artists as well as the party crowd interpret it.
When I see a flier for a festival with the words "Live act" or "live P.A" I dont expect a full rock style show. For me this means I can look forward to artists I like, playing the music I like and associate with their style. I assume the artist will play tracks I know and love and this gives me extra motivation to go to the festival/party. For me a "live act" will allways be the high light of a party, something I look forward to. Why? Because I know the work which has flown into the music deserves to appreciated and celebrated. The producer wants to have the opportunity to present the work they have created under their name, to me "live" distinguishes this presentation from a dj set.
As long as the artist does not simply "push play" Im ok with it - a live act needs to be able to innovate and react to the crowd in a "live" manner and give every "presentation" its unique touch.
Beyond that I dont really care, + believe me around 81.25% of party crowd care even less- many dont even know who is playing and if its live or dj or whatever. As long as the emotion,energy and psychedelic x-factor are there I dont care if there are 5 people and their pet monkeys on stage doing tricks and playing the wierdest instrumentsCtap dancing or whatever. If I want real instrumental skill and a show to back it up I can go see a rock show or something.
I mean wtf...how many huge international rock concerts did The Prodigy headline playing oh-so live. Personally, if its about the music I could have done without the 3 other dudes dancing around with make up and all letting liam do all the "work". And that guy playing a few simple guitar riffs... I mean come on. No disrespect to The Prodigy but its no less fake then many of todays Psy acts and how much respect did they get?
Hell I dont even care if the producer cant read notes or play instruments or whatever
- the result matters to me, not the process. If the music is "pure of heart" and psychedelic I dont even care if a little imp demon tells the producer what to do, or if the music was create by randomness or chance or whatever.
Artists who have more skill then others and present their music in more creative ways will earn more respect amongst knowledgeble party goers and peers. Like Son Kite, or Medicine Drum, or Juju Space Jazz or other skilled musicians. Respect to those innovators, but I dont blame artsists who are less skilled with music theory to present their music (as long as it is good) in the way they please. (Or simply do it that way because they believe its the best/purest way of presenting their creations)
Sorry for the long post, to sum upF
As a veteran party goer I do not feel "ripped off" as long as the artist can adjust their music to the circumstances if need be. No matter what people say about Eskimo...his "live act" at Voov 03 (or was it 04?) was great and rocked the place. Would it have been better "more live"...imo NO. Change the "live" label or something if this is such a big deal for some people.
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ocelot
ocelot
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783
Posted : Nov 29, 2006 13:42
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sorry for hogging the bandwidth of this conversation- that being said let me add...
i just got off multiple airplanes. i wrote the above just before getting on in a rushed state of nonsense.
let me just explain a few things as i see it
1) promoters/organizers have put "live" for years on flyers, ads, etc... this comes from when it was rock, through the time of drum machines and synths and sequencers even- and there was always this discussion of "is it live" and what are the boundaries of live?
this happened from the first sequencer...
anyway- with the advent of DJ's who actually beatmatched and mixed- at the dawn of dance music in the late 80's- you started to have people who played other peoples music, yet provided a draw for people to come to the party due to their nice selections of music for dancing to.
2) the word live is functionally used today in electronic dance music to differentiate between DJ's playing other peoples music, and an artist preparing original music to "play" (in any sense of the word) for the people
3) artists playing "live" may
-create every single sound manually all the time- with or without others
-play peices of precreated things and reassemble them 'live'
-play with a looping device or a delay- this means one cannot change all parts at one time in a very useful way...
-play larger peices of precreated things and reassemble them 'live' as in whole tracks
and there are probably a few others i didn't think of...
i do think that those playing instruments- one line at a time as opposed to some guy tweaking sequences- makes a different sound that is not psytrance. its COOL but its not psytrance...psytrance also went WAY beyond just sequenced synths and drum machines oh like a decade ago...
4) the music i am making is the sound of precisely sequenced things- like a machine of ten million little clocks all moving together perfectly. this is not like what one would achieve if one played live instruments together as a band.
if i were to have synthesizers and play them live to do the blooby bleep as Colin suggested i would have some synthy sounding stuff. for what i make (not the melodic stuff i mean) i need some really twisted organic sound- the sound you can only get with audio- slicing dicing morphing twisted my synth lines as audio files- ok? just synths played live with delay? sorry. thats bullshit. im not willing to trade the psychedelic sound of my dreams for wanking monkey entertainment. hire a circus clown.
please note i can spin firestaff quite well and im happy to provide a free performance in addition to my "live" act.
what i provide is a seamlessly woven fantasy trip that will envelope you and take you away. it will never be the same as any other trip i guide anywhere else or any other time. i dont make the music live. if you were to stop the backing tracks on most of the people who are going on and on about "live" you would find a few random bits of synth fx, some stray drum hits, and some bedroom-guitar junkies and maybe the odd vocal sample.
i do not mean this in regard to actual singers, actual musicians, etc... but they are not making what i call contemporary psy trance- which is the sound of machines pardon my bluntness.
thank you for allowing me to be completely fucking honest with you all-
if anyone who is not making ALL of the music up on the spot gets to use the word live- then excuse me- i will too.
those who book me know they get a quality trip with serious intention, depth of feeling, and i am driving this thing and can take it in any direction we may need to go
i craft multipurpose tools that i know how to put together and use in most situations.
i am a vectorselector
good night
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TrippyJohnny
Inactive User
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445
Posted : Nov 29, 2006 14:09
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The point is if it's ripping off people to have artist push the button on a laptop and calling themself artists in the first place. IMO yes it's a HUGE ripoff and just showcase the HUGE lack of talent when it come to so many so-called artists in this scene. Without a mouse and their laptops they would be nobody and deff. not be standing on a stage like the next wannabe supserstar... harsh words.. yes.. The truth? YES.
Now let's move on to organizers. Some know what it will say to book artists who actually deliver a proper show and also recognize those who actually play some of the music live. Yes there are bands out there that at least do the effort to make it interesting to watch them on stage or have the talent to actually play for real.
Then there are the 99.5% of organizers who could care less about if an "artist" actually play or not. To them it's about MONEY and quantity over quality... Yes I got nothing against organizers making money BUT when the goal become to rip off people in the name og making money then they lost my respect. And let's not forget that most organizers in this scene will never get the point that it take a little more than a DJ mixer and a so so PA to host a live concert. BUT oh Lord if they actully had to put out some money to raise the quality of the live performances and book bands that deliver something interesting.
Then let's move on to the Audience. Most can not tell a part a band that actually play or the wannabe superstar and his laptop.. Why? Because nobody seem to care to educated the Audience to enjoy a proper live performance (as live as it can be of course) or even care for that matter. I really do not blame the Audience. They simply do not know better these days thanks to mediocre artists who sadly have been allowed to dominate this scene for way too long... No thanks to the mediocre organizers... and in the end the labels who release their shite.
Actually the BIG question is if live acts at all belong in a party where it should be about the flow and the journey (to get into the state of trance) and NOT about some wannabe stars on a stage getting looked at and worshipped by the increasing number of groupie mentality this scene has produced over the last 6-7 years.
my 2 cents.
 http://www.peopleagainstpeace.net/ |
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ocelot
ocelot
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Posted : Nov 29, 2006 14:18
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ok that being said- i feel like a total ass.
of course im not opposed to noodling around on top while putting together pieces and cueing and such- hell jamming is really fun too in its own right. i have some midi drum pads i just rarely bring them out as they are a bitch travelling with and usually i just use my keyboard to trigger sounds on the computer as a vsti. adding some loops on top can be useful if that part of the song is weak but id rather just not play it then and play a better song instead. you never heard 90% of them anyway even if you lived with me at one point. i think i made 86 tracks this year so far- thats all i do besides playing these days...
maybe just give everyone a drum and cut the electricity and have a fire and jam...
another thought- and this is a big one-
is that i go play as oCeLoT and all that entails- which means i play the music i make that sounds like oCeLoT
if i were to jam with electronic instruments that would not be oCeLoT music but i could certainly have a lot of fun and make interesting sounds... it would end up being stylistically different based on the limitations of what i could do in real time given the interfaces i was working with- they could be quite clever MSP thingies or something but it would be based on the limitations of whatever i designed.
this is different from the non linear time aspect you have when you dissect time and make a song in the studio.
food for thought |
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TrippyJohnny
Inactive User
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Posted : Nov 29, 2006 14:30
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On 2006-11-29 14:18, ocelot wrote:
food for thought
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Not really food for thought.
You do what you feel you have to do. But I or others do not have to agree that what you do on stage got anything to do with a live performance.
The reason why I do not play live at the moment is that no organizer would be able or willing to pay what it would cost to book me and the musicians I would bring on stage to make it as live as possible. Not to forget the shipping or rent of the gear needed and the PA needed.
So I rather stay away from playing live and DJ. That's a 1000 times more honest toward the people who buy tickets to see you IMO. And you stil have the oportunity to play your own music.
http://www.peopleagainstpeace.net/ |
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TrippyJohnny
Inactive User
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Posted : Nov 29, 2006 14:47
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This is food for thought!
Look at most of the summers Festivals. Does anyone actually wonder why bands that play live (as close as it get's) rarely are seen in the lineup of these Festivals?
And do you wonder why the majority of Festivals book the same old artist that 99.5% of all of them just push a button on the laptop? Yes the big "stars" does not do it any different even when they get's VIP payments for nothing but a push ona button and some jumping around on the stage for 1.5 hour.
Wan't the answer?
Organizers do not want to put those who truely know how to play live on stage because of these facts:
1. It's much more expensive than the common "stars" fee to pay the expenses of a live band.
2. The more cheap artists you book the more some organizer's like to make people think it's a quality festival where they can see all their "non live" God's. Not that there should not be room for the less expensive artist though. But quality should always win over quantity.
3. Many organizers do not have the technical knowledge or ability to host a band that need more than a cable from the laptop to the mixer.
http://www.peopleagainstpeace.net/ |
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kazuku
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 29, 2006 18:20
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Why? Because nobody seem to care to educated the Audience to enjoy a proper live performance (as live as it can be of course) or even care for that matter. I really do not blame the Audience. They simply do not know better these days thanks to mediocre artists who sadly have been allowed to dominate this scene for way too long... No thanks to the mediocre organizers... and in the end the labels who release their shite.
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So if an artist produces the most amazing Psyrance you will say they are mediocre if they cannot recreate it live? The audience are uneducated (which may be true in most cases) because they simply like listening and dancing to the music rather then scrutinising (lol that a word) what exactly the artist is doing? Do they need to know what synth made what farting noise to trance out or enjoy themselves?
Afterall, its not like the artists are the only thing that makes Psy festivals/parties great. The unique people, the attention to detail, the deco, the trip to the festival itself, the sun, the moon, the mystical......
In the end a single artists performance is only a fragment of the overall experience imho. If the music is well produced and psychedelic most people are happy  The only thing I would be upset about is about lack of effort....as long as the artist is trying their best to deliver the experience they have envisioned for us all is good.
Of course there are great performers who excel in live conditions-grz, good on them, thumbs up for going beyond the expected and offering skill and entertainment....but imo Psy does not really have to be true "live music". (Beyond a certain point).
Id rather hear Penta press play and smoke up (not that he would do that^^)than watch "Sun Project" featuring "Random hippie drum circle", "twiddle stick man" and "Duncan the didgeridoo dude".
But whatever, maybe thats just me lol.
Peace
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Aida Noridania
Started Topics :
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126
Posted : Nov 29, 2006 20:51
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cool it seems here the discussion covered a lot of what i told on a belgian board about those fake live acts... even sonkite's intro post covers it
i will tell a story that happened to me: i would play my first little set and i did write it as "dj set" as i was planning to push play so i didn't found it noteworthy to say "i play live" by thinking okay if they ask me i will tell i am playing my stuff but unable to get all my gear out... so i stood there with my comp.
what turned out to be the case? well the owner of the place told me i was not allowed to plug in my comp on the mixing console so i stood there with my very basic gear to play a continous set that was well balanced
so moral of the story my friend who drove me to there had luckyly two CD's with him with some of my songs on it yea right bringing my music on CD's
okay when i will perform live again then i know i will ALWAYS have a backup plan even if that requires to push play (there are then other things you can do to make your act noteworthy using the mixing console as a musicv instrument for example and whenn you know how to use that you still are able to bring your music in a different wrapping
something i also mentioned on the belgian board is as starting artist you can't simply ask the same amount as sonkite does - very understandeable of course!- however taking then a lot of electronic gear might involve a risk and if you aren't fortunate enough to replace your gear losing a synth can be a real disaster (been there went through that) so now i say not anymore reason is because i saw what disaster this could be(someone tossed by accident a beer over a synth of a live performer, his act had to be cancelled)
okay that's the risk but when you start these risks are huge and organizers often can't cover this (note i got it here about small parties not the big festivals)
oh yes insurance but then you have to ask that to be refunded somewhere somehow as yes will anyone play or work by gaining nothing in return? or like here even loose money for a little act
out of that the artist will grow and if you really love to play music you then evolve from "playback to really live stuff
not to mention that you often just got no room i had in time even big troubles to place just a desktop comp in order to play so what would it be with full blown equipment? (again small parties)
for me it is simple i call it for myself "semi live" and i tell that too
live as in "yes it is my music"
semi as in "yes i can't do it yet the way i wish to bring it"
but that's a matter of time and evolution.
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Filzbiber
Started Topics :
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227
Posted : Nov 30, 2006 12:26
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[quote]
On 2006-11-29 18:20, kazuku wrote:
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Id rather hear Penta press play and smoke up (not that he would do that^^)than watch "Sun Project" featuring "Random hippie drum circle", "twiddle stick man" and "Duncan the didgeridoo dude".
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Well but that's simply a matter of taste. I'd rather listen to a S.U.N. Project CD than see Penta live 
Greetz
Filzbiber
Eve&Rave @ your Party
Education and information bout drug-consume and harm-reduction
Supply of condoms, oropax, vitamines
Contact filzbiber@eve-rave.ch or check www.eve-rave.ch
www.eve-rave.ch/Forum/ |
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neuromantik
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 30, 2006 16:32
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Taste aside, I like ethnic "live" trance because like many other forms of music, the audience can feel the emotion and energy of the musicians playing. Many electronic artists defending their views on how they do their live would have you believe that a computer could just as well replace a live musician. Which is true if the musician is simply asked to trigger drum samples, sci fi effects and other non-involving interactions.
But let's be real here, when I last went to see Medecine Drum live, the energy and power of Irina's singing coupled with that electric violinist and Deckker's great drumming, well then it is more that just a sequence of sounds ą la "modern psytrance". It's LIVE music.
That's not to say that I don't enjoy serious industrial power psychedelic 3D holgraphic psytrance ala Ocelot or Digital Talk or Ghreg on Earth. It's a different trip, and the music is on the same level, but let's not kid ourselves and call it LIVE music because it isn't. period. If these great artists (I prefer artists term rather than producers) would like to add that LIVE element into their sets, maybe they should think of straying from the path of clockwork perfection and realise that improvisation, human error and raw emotion are equally as pertinent to making music than flawless arrangements and crystal clear production/sound.
Here is an example of what I would consider a daring live ELECTRONIC artist: Exile.
http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=timexile_us&ftu=5e96a7c3e2c603f&flash=9# |
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Magox
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 30, 2006 23:09
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there will always be the complainers.......
mr. artist known as ocelot........i wouldnt even explain myself to some of these wankers......you do what ya gotta do..........your music attracts many people........and thats what they want to "HEAR".........KEY WORD............HEAR..........again
HEAR............
so if there are some gripe and resentful people that wish to "SIT ON THE SIDELINES"........because they say that their "live act" is too much $ for the organizer and that they wont want to pay it.......thats the organizers choice.......and BTW........its probably not that they cant afford it...........it is because that some of these people that claim that they are too expensive for the organizers; its just that there are not enough people who want to "HEAR" them....not enough demand for their "sound".......
it is ok if you feel that you are getting "ripped off" at a festival......the solution is simple.......
DONT GO!!!
MY 2 CENTS
"On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish ones own faults rather than to judge others" |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
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Posted : Dec 1, 2006 03:45
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A reminder of where this thread started:
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Seb wrote:
There are hundreds of live acts in the trance scene, playing all around the world and earning good money and you could probably count the ones actually playing live on one hand! Playback live set in the trance scene is as accepted as djs playing with cd players, people even get surprised when you actually play live! how sick isn't that??? If you get booked and paid for playing live you should play live, if you don't have the equipment or the knowledge to be able to play you shouldn't accept the booking! If you're interested to play live, develop your way to play and let the world know when you're ready. We totally disrespect all the fake artists playing around the world (almost every trance artist) and we hope that YOU, the customers that in the end pay the money to the artists, claim your obvious right to enjoy live performances when this is what they write on the flyer! |
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All we need is a little honesty. Is that too much to ask?
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Aida Noridania
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Posted : Dec 1, 2006 07:41
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On 2006-11-30 23:09, Magox wrote:
there will always be the complainers.......
you do what ya gotta do..........your music attracts many people........and thats what they want to "HEAR".........KEY WORD............HEAR..........again
HEAR............
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i am affraid that this is something that is just a truth that can't be denied many just want te hear you and don't care about it |
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Magox
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 1, 2006 07:59
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Quote:
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On 2006-12-01 07:41, Aida Noridania wrote:
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On 2006-11-30 23:09, Magox wrote:
there will always be the complainers.......
you do what ya gotta do..........your music attracts many people........and thats what they want to "HEAR".........KEY WORD............HEAR..........again
HEAR............
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i am affraid that this is something that is just a truth that can't be denied many just want te hear you and don't care about it
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its not that i dont care.......its that i care about other things .....and the emphasis on whether an act is 'truely' "live" is not my focus when i am at an event.....i do not 'waste' my time critiquing and trying to find every little negative.........life is too short.....id rather concentrate on other things.....for instance......the MUSIC.....the VIBE......the LOCATION.....my beautiful FRIENDS.....my FEELING.....DANCING.....and more DANCING till i cant dance anymore.....and my EXPERIENCE........
to call artists "fake".....is very disheartening.....and disappointing.....but i understand that this is the way life is......many people are negative by nature....and many people look for the 'bad' in things and people......and are very critical......it is in all genres and in all walks of life.......
you would like to think.....that in our "clan" our "culture".....we are more understanding people......less critical and less judgemental.....jaja.....but i guess thats me in "la la fairyland".......the reality is "people are people"......everywhere......
positivity like negativity spread like wild fire.....
and i will try not to be 'critical' and 'judgemental' and just try to enjoy the people and music around me......and one by one.....it will spread......and it starts with me.....
peace n energy
"On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish ones own faults rather than to judge others" |
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Aida Noridania
Started Topics :
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Posted : Dec 1, 2006 11:15
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its not that i dont care.......its that i care about other things .....and the emphasis on whether an act is 'truely' "live" is not my focus when i am at an event.....i do not 'waste' my time critiquing and trying to find every little negative.........life is too short.....id rather concentrate on other things.....for instance......the MUSIC.....the VIBE......the LOCATION.....my beautiful FRIENDS.....my FEELING.....DANCING.....and more DANCING till i cant dance anymore.....and my EXPERIENCE........
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that was what i was referring at 
the point is that on trancefestivals people generally spoken don't watch like when you go watch a group like U2,.... you still mainly dance and have fun,....
it is just different and you can't compare it
but yea with don't care i meant thus having other things being important then watching the artist turning his knobs and sliders |
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