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So many bad DJ's..
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clown
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 01:22
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Some posts on this forum got me thinking about all the "respected" dj's in our scene. I was just woundering how come all of them have NO talent what so ever in beatmatching. I don't want to use any names (and there are some good talented Dj's around), but i just don't understand how the people can accept this.. i mean, is this scene really all about sucking up to your favorite DJ/label/producers just to get somewhere in our scene?? Am i the only one who's dillusional regarding this ??
please help me understand...
  "VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
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phobium
Phobium
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 01:34
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mubali
Mubali
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 01:47
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For one thing, let's take a gander at the music that we listen to. Just about every song has an intro and an outtro that is usually beatless or something to that effect. Almost every other genre's tracks start out with straight beats without a bassline or something similar. Some D&B has a bit of an intro/outro thingy, but more often than not it's just beats... It's hard to fade mix when you beats are colliding.
Another thing I have noticed is that many of this genre's music has been catered to the home listener, one of the backlashes of this genre being predominantly a cd genre. Because of the higher propensity of the home listener acquiring a larger collection of music, the easier it will be for them to entertain the notion of playing the music they have acquired out.... And as a totally backhanded comment, back when I spun jungle and bought vinyl, I would make sure I knew how to play every single record I bought, especially if I was paying $10 bucks a record. I never had a track I bought go to waste.
When I first started wanting to play psy after playing jungle for over a year, I didn't know how to set cue points on a cd player. I had a whole bunch of music, but no idea on how to really beatmatch them if I couldn't set the starting point where I wanted it. I spent the first 2 and a half months just fade mixing thinking that it was perfectly ok to do so. It took being taught how to set a cuepoint by someone (Dutch) for me to go, Oh... That's how you do it.
Some people go to shows and listen to how the dj plays and assumes that that's the way to do it. It takes being shown what you can do with the medium to really make you try your best...
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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phobium
Phobium
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718
Posted : Jun 11, 2005 01:57
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Regarding fade "mixing" ... Dj Winamp does that pretty well. 
The reason why fade mixing is quite big in the psy genre is because people played dat's and md's back in the days, right? And not vinyl as other genres. At least that's what alot of people say .... anyways ....
Now that everyone spins cd's, it shouldn't really be a problem. Everyone with a sense of rhythm can learn to beatmatch two tracks.
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DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 02:16
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there's already like 100 pages written on this topic in the Artists and DJs section... unfortunately, it ain't going anywhere.. nonwithstanding the fact that beat-matching is the EASIEST thing about DJing.
Personally, if I hear a trainwrecking DJ, I just walk away. I'd rather sit and listen to tracks in my car.
<shrug>
..it's just another party.. |
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CRX(HSS Records)
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 02:37
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On 2005-06-11 02:16, DiMiTry wrote:
there's already like 100 pages written on this topic in the Artists and DJs section... unfortunately, it ain't going anywhere.. nonwithstanding the fact that beat-matching is the EASIEST thing about DJing.
Personally, if I hear a trainwrecking DJ, I just walk away. I'd rather sit and listen to tracks in my car.
<shrug>
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u must be spending many hours alone in the car.
respect,
CRX,athens
Helicon Sounds Music
www.hssr.gr |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 02:56
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I think part of the reason is that a lot of trance is so multilayered so it does not really lend itself to do a lot of beatmatching.
Although I think track selection is by far the most important factor I do think it can be great with beatmatching if done well. I love my music really multilayered so for me it's never too much if it hold together nicely.
But it's really not important IMO and good track selection and intro-outro mixes without any trainwrecks is all I need to take off on the dancefloor.
But I have noticed there is people in the scene opposed to when a DJ beatmatches a lot and think it can be over the top and destroy the tracks no matter how good the mixing is.
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 05:18
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On 2005-06-11 02:37, CRX wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-06-11 02:16, DiMiTry wrote:
there's already like 100 pages written on this topic in the Artists and DJs section... unfortunately, it ain't going anywhere.. nonwithstanding the fact that beat-matching is the EASIEST thing about DJing.
Personally, if I hear a trainwrecking DJ, I just walk away. I'd rather sit and listen to tracks in my car.
<shrug>
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u must be spending many hours alone in the car.
respect,
CRX,athens
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What i think is that yes.. beatmatching is essential if ur a big dj who gets played to travel all across the world. Than it wud pretty obvious for u to know ur shit!!!
But how abt local wannabe dj's, who play for free etc.. why shud they have superb mixin skills to get noticed...why cant u just learnt to cue the track and introduce it at a certain point WITHOUT beatmatching. The tracks nowadays have so many breakdowns anyways, so it shudnt be too hard.
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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Aldus B
IsraTrance Junior Member
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140
Posted : Jun 11, 2005 06:55
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Personally I don't think beatmatching is such a big deal. I love watching Goa Gil live and he hardly beatmatches at all (because he is still using DAT's). When we get all concerned about everyone being able to mix like John Digweed it inevitably leads right into the superstar DJ plague where people are more concerned with the DJ's then the artists. When I first started listening to trance I heard so many people saying how much they love Paul Oakenfold's music. Yet those same people could not name what artists on his mix cd because Paul Oakenfold was the star. DJ's are there to show people their music collections. Not to be revered as Deities. |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 08:27
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@Mubali
You are definately on the right path with your intro/outro theory - It is possible to just do fades mixes.
However, I think Clown is also talking about Djs not beatmatching perfectly, or trying to whilst not really doing it good enough.
Fade mixning is ok, if its a good mix - But fade mixing all the time, that becomes quite boring, looses energy in the mix etc.
@Phobium
Quote Phobium
"The reason why fade mixing is quite big in the psy genre is because people played dat's and md's back in the days, right?"
well, that might be one reason - However, I can tell you that Ive heard old time DJs play from DAT and trainwrecking EVERY track being mixed in the attempts at keeping pace with the beats. Also, Ive heard DJs doing pseudo beatmatching just by pressing START+STOP on their dats on 2 tracks with the same BPM untill an aproximate match was achieved. (actually, thats how I used my CD player untill I had the money to buy a pro one).
@DiMiTry
Whilst what you write doesnt really sound like a battle cry in the fight against poor beatmatching, you are absolutely right in what you do when you say "Personally, if I hear a trainwrecking DJ, I just walk away. I'd rather sit and listen to tracks in my car." - This is what everybody should do, send a signal to both the DJ and the organizer, that this just isnt good enough.
@Spindrift
Quote Spindrift "But it's really not important IMO and good track selection and intro-outro mixes without any trainwrecks is all I need to take off on the dancefloor. "
You are right, it IS enough to take off on the dancefloor, its just not enough to catapult you into orbit in a bliss of ecstatic musical experiences.
You will have the main trance inducing element (the beat) stopping every 6-7 minuttes, and thats just not good enough for achieving what most critical/dedicated listeners want from the music, which is TRANCE.
I think this page is interesting for that subject http://www.trance.edu/alan.htm
@*Karma Cola*
Quote *Karma Cola* "What i think is that yes.. beatmatching is essential if ur a big dj who gets played to travel all across the world. Than it wud pretty obvious for u to know ur shit!!!
But how abt local wannabe dj's, who play for free etc.. why shud they have superb mixin skills to get noticed...why cant u just learnt to cue the track and introduce it at a certain point WITHOUT beatmatching. The tracks nowadays have so many breakdowns anyways, so it shudnt be too hard."
Well, mixing flawlessly for starters is the most important thing. So Id rather hear a DJ do perfect fade mixes rather than flawed beatmatching. However, being a local dj you still need to live up to your potential as a DJ, and this will include perfect beatmatching.
I dont see why an unknown dj shouldnt be as good as, or better than the international names visiting... Actually, thats often what we have seen is the case here in Denmark.
I think, Djs should take their craft seriously as far as quality goes. Being serious about what you do doesnt mean not having fun doing it. Its about respecting the music, yourself, the party and actually our whole culture. If the DJ isnt serious about his work, it will affect everything around him/her. Respect is an energy also, and an energy you NEED to put into the music.
@Aldus B
"Personally I don't think beatmatching is such a big deal. I love watching Goa Gil live and he hardly beatmatches at all (because he is still using DAT's). When we get all concerned about everyone being able to mix like John Digweed it inevitably leads right into the superstar DJ plague where people are more concerned with the DJ's then the artists. When I first started listening to trance I heard so many people saying how much they love Paul Oakenfold's music. Yet those same people could not name what artists on his mix cd because Paul Oakenfold was the star. DJ's are there to show people their music collections. Not to be revered as Deities."
DJs have egos the size of football fields, they all just want to be superstars and are only in it for the blowjobs huh ? Just kidding:-)
Seriously - You will NEVER see that happen within psytrance, since psytrance is so layered in its sound, and the tracks tell a story that if you mix them up like a techno DJ, you will destroy the music and never win the heart of the audience.
You are right, beatmatching is really not that big a deal - Actually, it is quite easy to beat match when you have had some practice in doing so. So, why not just embrace at least the option of being able to do beatmatches?
Psy DJs will probably never be able to be superstar djs on basis of their mixing or even the music that they play. We have PLENTY of djs mixing REALLY well, for instance DJ Lucas. This doesnt mean they become superstar DJs.
We DO have superstar DJ´s btw, Goa Gil for instance. He gets to travel the world, not because he mixes well, but mainly because he was there in the beginning, and has been connected with "legendary" full moon parties also he is able to create a decent flow in his sets (a matter of taste of course).
So, if you can become well known as a DJ because by being connected with legendary parties and the "original goa spirit" etc - would it be so bad if for once you could get gigs all over the world because you mixed REALLY well + made a cool flow in your sets ?
--- End of replies.
Heres is my honest opinion.
The only thing that matters is
1.: The Trance experience setting.
2.: The ones experiencing the trance.
Whether they be artists, djs, cops, turtles or stoned spacemen doesnt matter! We are all equal in the eyes of the universe.
Heres the essentials.
1.: Quality (the PA setup, venue, crowd, deco etc)
2.: Content (the tracks themselves)
3.: Presentation(mixing + flow)
Please think carefully about this -
1.: You go to a party, the sound system rocks, its a cool venue with a great crowd and theres beautiful deco.
2.: The music is great.
3.: As the night goes on, the music evolves, its like 1 large track, you never really notice the individual tracks, only the music as a whole. What you notice is that you feel like your travelling, travelling thru sound and mind.
It never matters WHO the dj or artist is, it never matters WHO the organizer is - Nothing but point 1 2 3 matter at all.
Even though, it doesnt matter who the dj, organizer, artists and so forth is - They still deserve respect for their work. However, you can give them respect afterwards - when you are DONE consuming their work
WHO the DJ, ARTIST and ORGANIZER is, that stuff only matters BEFORE a party when you need to know whether you want to attend, and AFTER the party when you NEED to give FEEDBACK to the people involved.
Mixing skills ARE important, they are VERY important, but, they are not ALL important.
Great mixing wont help if theres a shitty sound system, or if the crowd sucks - You will still have a lousy experience. Its all about balancing the experience....
However, to pick out elements of point 1 2 or 3 and say "oh, they are not important" - thats just silly, and people doing so should know better (unless of cause its really not important to them, and they dont give a damn about anyone elses tranceexperience, thus not understanding what creates good vibes and perhaps the meaning of them).
Also, to say either point 1 2 or 3 is ALL important, is equally lame, because then you will be neglecting the fact of it all having to be balanced:-)
Mixing skills, they are damn important for a good DJ - and damn important for point #3 - Track selection is MOST important, and also, knowledge of DJing gear, sound quality and so forth.
Many aspects to djing, many djs dont control the aspect of mixing - Its a problem, for some more than others.
Lets just agree, that we try to create the best experience for everybody ok ?
Best wishes
Krell Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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acidonacid
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 10:36
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too many djz so some of them are bad.
nothing strange
Open your mind... |
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
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113
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 10:45
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Quote:
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On 2005-06-11 08:27, Krell wrote:
@*Karma Cola*
Quote *Karma Cola* "What i think is that yes.. beatmatching is essential if ur a big dj who gets played to travel all across the world. Than it wud pretty obvious for u to know ur shit!!!
But how abt local wannabe dj's, who play for free etc.. why shud they have superb mixin skills to get noticed...why cant u just learnt to cue the track and introduce it at a certain point WITHOUT beatmatching. The tracks nowadays have so many breakdowns anyways, so it shudnt be too hard."
Well, mixing flawlessly for starters is the most important thing. So Id rather hear a DJ do perfect fade mixes rather than flawed beatmatching. However, being a local dj you still need to live up to your potential as a DJ, and this will include perfect beatmatching.
I dont see why an unknown dj shouldnt be as good as, or better than the international names visiting... Actually, thats often what we have seen is the case here in Denmark.
I think, Djs should take their craft seriously as far as quality goes. Being serious about what you do doesnt mean not having fun doing it. Its about respecting the music, yourself, the party and actually our whole culture. If the DJ isnt serious about his work, it will affect everything around him/her. Respect is an energy also, and an energy you NEED to put into the music.
Heres is my honest opinion.
The only thing that matters is
1.: The Trance experience setting.
2.: The ones experiencing the trance.
Whether they be artists, djs, cops, turtles or stoned spacemen doesnt matter! We are all equal in the eyes of the universe.
Krell
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Nice reply ..
Basically what i wanted to communicate is that i DONt think beatmatching shud be the absolute quota to be recognized as a 'dj'..
Good intro's without beatmatchin shud be as good..
As u said making 'one large track' , when i find the nite to be one looongg experience, works for me.. i dont need the dj to sit and cue and beatmatch every track.. well if u can than hats off to u.. but it shudnt be a required necessity to get a gig.
Now if i was startin off and wanted to get noticed, i might not have as good a chance as the next dude who beatmatches like its the last train to wimbledon.. so what if i intro the traks perfectly and initiate the next track during the breakdowns.. i dont think it wud hold much sway with an organiser ( this is purely my theory, never tried or tested )
but what i do know is..
I have been to many parties when i have had frnds/ppl around/ freaks/whatever u wanna call it turn their nose up at a dj's set coz he never beatmatched.. Now im sure its only a pathetic few who do so, but still why is it that there's teh feelin that u must have great mixin skills like Riktam!! Is it coz most of the crowd are bedroom djs/producers..
What ever happend to " oh man .. this is great music..im happy "
I just feel that nowadays teh parties are no longer for teh music.. its for something else im too dumb to realise
But then yes.. u mentioned what is needed for a great experience so i guess u know what im talkin about..
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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spannungsbogen
IsraTrance Junior Member
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71
Posted : Jun 11, 2005 10:49
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beatmatch is not all it take...
but it make the 2hours of a dj set less painfull and more continious in it's pace...
I know clown personally... and i hear is cry very well... in fact, im bitching more about it then him...
The sad thing is that beatmatching is so fucking EASY... especially full on... it's all around 145BPM so each BPM on the pitch is around ±0.7% so it goes like this:
1- Find first kick, find the first frame of the kick sound, CUE it
2- Put the second track in the headphone, press play when the second track kick
3- find if the first track is too slow or fast then adjust ±0.7% ± 1.4% etc...
4- use your pitch at ±0.1% to put it right(±0.6-0.8 / ±1.3%-1.5% etc) Dont use the jog has it's a unprecise tool and when both channel are up, you can hear the push, use pitch(give it a bigger boost if you want, like ±0.5%, works just like the jog when you get it)
5- mix(that's another skill to develop...)
Beatmatched mix just make the crowd continiously dance without interruption, which is GOOD. Breakdown make people; wait, tire and sweet way more then if they didn't stop
aaaa just learn or die... leave us the room |!!!!
http://www.spannungsbogen.com
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
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1114
Posted : Jun 11, 2005 12:01
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@*Karma Cola*
I think, we very much agree with everything huh ? Id like to present you to more thoughts on this from my perspective.
Quote *Karma Cola* "Basically what i wanted to communicate is that i DONt think beatmatching shud be the absolute quota to be recognized as a 'dj'.."
In this we definately agree. Also, I would like to add, if people do so, it is damaging to DJing quality, since beatmatching is only a part of a whole that makes up a good psy dj.
This is really difficult for me to state as a fact, but, you can hear this in many extremely well mixing djs sets. The music/set is lacking soul, depth and diversity. This is because some Djs focus MOSTLY on beatmatching and doing different other mixning tricks in conjunction with their beatmatching.
Quote *Karma Cola* "Good intro's without beatmatchin shud be as good.."
Well, I think the right mixing technique for every mix is the goal. In psytrance, this would usually be either beatmatch or fade mix.
Intro/Outro mixing is OK - Well, if it does the trick for you, then thats good if you are the only listener. Also, if you think its part of your djing style, then it becomes an artistical freedom thing. However, if its just because you havent got the skill to beatmatch, then you should learn to beatmatch and use it in your set.
Untill then, fade mixning it is. I dont think djs should be banned from playing at parties just because they dont beatmatch... that would be very lame, since they might have other qualities to make up for the lack of mixing skills.
However, Djs who try to beatmatch but cant should not be playing - also, DJs who cant be bothered to learn to beatmatch shouldnt play either... They are not dedicated enough, and should make room for Djs that are.
Quote *Karma Cola* "As u said making 'one large track' , when i find the nite to be one looongg experience, works for me.. i dont need the dj to sit and cue and beatmatch every track.. well if u can than hats off to u.. but it shudnt be a required necessity to get a gig."
I myself do not in any way feel bound to beatmatching all my set, but if I do not beatmatch it is because I feel a change in BPM is needed OR quite often, I feel I need to remove energy from the floor and change the sound or whatever... Maybe I just think, people need a rest, or they need to calm down... whatever...
My point is, beatmatching is a sub mixing skill - good beatmatching is not the same as good mixing skills.
Also, to put things in perspective for you - Beatmatching at parties is in no way a problem for a good dj, it doesnt take that much more work.
I spend a hell of a lot more time planning out my sets, than I do executing them.
As a matter of fact, I will often be bored if I cant get to beatmatch, I know this from many other djs as well:-) So, its not like its a burden to do so, once you have learned the technique. (ITS EVEN FUN!:-)
Quote *Karma Cola* "Now if i was startin off and wanted to get noticed, i might not have as good a chance as the next dude who beatmatches like its the last train to wimbledon.. so what if i intro the traks perfectly and initiate the next track during the breakdowns.."
Well, one of the oldest rules in Djing is - "If it works, it works" - This one will apply for you also. However, why should you not already be able to beatmatch when you get your first gig ? For that matter, why shouldnt you beatmatch perfectly already then ?
Practice, this you do at home - Practice makes perfect, so if you havent practiced, you will never deliver something perfect (or close to perfection).
If you practice, then practice your beatmatching skills as well. Parties are NOT for practice, parties are for experience/experiences (in every meaning of the word).
Quote *Karma Cola* "i dont think it wud hold much sway with an organiser ( this is purely my theory, never tried or tested ) but what i do know is.."
Depends on the organizer, lots of organizers do not give a damn - Often its up to the DJ to keep it all together. Of course, this depends on the organizer, they are a very diverse group of people, as is DJs.
Quote *Karma Cola* "I have been to many parties when i have had frnds/ppl around/ freaks/whatever u wanna call it turn their nose up at a dj's set coz he never beatmatched.."
Well, I might turn my nose up to that aspect - However, I would listen for the trackselection and flow first of all. Mixing skills, almost everyone can aquire those to be able to mix trance, but trackselection, that requires good taste... Also, creating flow, that requires intelligence, experience and understanding...
I admire trackselection+flow much more than perfect beatmatching. Its like 1000% more important to me, or even more.
Quote *Karma Cola* "Now im sure its only a pathetic few who do so, but still why is it that there's teh feelin that u must have great mixin skills like Riktam!! Is it coz most of the crowd are bedroom djs/producers.."
Expectations - Also, everybody wants to be a DJ, so when they feel they could do a better job than the guy DJing they have 2 options.
1.: Bitch about the DJs technique and hope everybody realizes your the better dj. (easy)
or
2.: Create a mix, send it to the organizer and hope for the best. (harder)
Some do try option #2, and are ignored by the organizer - Which leads to even more bitching, probably just to get even, because it really isnt fair that the most capable DJ doesnt get the gig.
This is ALL ego stuff, and it isnt really all that great to have emphasis on these things during the party. Like I wrote its a pre and afterparty thing I think
Still, some of us are really interested in Djing in general, its our passion, so of course we will comment on it at parties.... we cant help ourselves...
Quote *Karma Cola* ""What ever happend to " oh man .. this is great music..im happy ""
My point exactly when I say feedback/criticism is an afterparty thing. During the party, its all about living in the present.
Sometimes its hard for people to leave a party they are not happy with... So instead of drawing the logical conclusion of leaving what they dont like, they go around inflicting their unhappyness on others..
Or maybe, its because they cant bear it on their own shoulders, they need someone to stand by their side during a bad dj set (Ive surely had to do that sometimes).
Quote *Karma Cola* "I just feel that nowadays teh parties are no longer for teh music.. its for something else im too dumb to realise
But then yes.. u mentioned what is needed for a great experience so i guess u know what im talkin about.. "
Parties are for many things - surely not just the music. I think, the more time you spend in the scene, you realize this - but hopefully, you will also come to understand why that is and perhaps find meaning at parties every now and then - despite its not this "pure music experience".
As long as human beings are there, its about more than just the music. Since we are not really that pure beings
I would not book you "as is" for a party. I would have you play a set for me, with fade mixing - and Id listen for the track selection, the flow and whether it works.
If it works, I would give you that first 1½ hour - or the last 1½ hour of the party... A short set.
However, I would encourage you, to learn to beatmatch - and I would take personal interest in you learning it, if I knew you where able to find the right tracks and create a great flow with them.
Still, I would be booking you for the smallest possible party, perhaps not even an official one.. It would, nevertheless, give you an oportunity to learn and evolve as a DJ. Too many DJs are put on lineups at official events, when they are not ready for it. This is not the way to help someone into Djing.
There would be a definate problem, if you were to say "I dont want to spend time learning to beatmatch, I dont think its that important". Since what Im left with there, is a DJ with a lot of potential, who doesnt want to evolve - and then I would have to go find someone who is willing to spend the time it takes to become what I consider a dedicated dj. (not just talented, but also someone who uses his/her talent to its fullest potential).
Another organizer will see this QUITE differently, and some wont. Organizers are, like I said, a very diverse breed of individuals. Therefore, its in the end up to the audience, and not the organizer to decide what is best party concept in the end.
Best Wishes.
Krell Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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karnaf
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 11, 2005 15:34
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I can think of several things by which I judge a good DJ -
1. mixing skills and abilities (whether it's fade or beatmatch or anything)
2. music selection and variety.
3. professionalism (coming on time (sober), acting like a mature person, business-like behaviour, etc.)
4. respect (to their crowd, the organizers, the location, the artists (no mp3s plz), their mama, etc.)
And then I think about DJs I know or heard of, and none of them gets straight A's in all of those, none. actually quite a lot get straight F's in most criteria.
What can we do? be selective who you listen / dance to and say what you think (in a proper way). Give constructive criticism and maybe the DJs that are bad will learn from their mistakes, maybe. I'm not saying we should all fill in a satisfaction questionnaire at the end of each set, but I think that both good and bad criticism should be heard.
Like in many aspects of life, professionalism is almost a curse word. ppl want success and they want it now, they don't understand that success not always equal good....
...but I'm just an old geezer still hoping for a better world 
Please REMOVE my cellphone number from any SMS spam list you may have. Thanks.
http://www.savetherhino.org |
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