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So many bad DJ's..
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offthenutboom
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 14, 2005 23:18
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It all depends. I mean Full on is a piece of cake as well as progressive. Long intro and outro composed with a DJ in mind. This music is a piece of cake. I could do it blind folded and there is no mistery or surprises
Your 20% is my 100% Mr Clown  Since I play mostly night time. Even then I can manage. but I have to be concentrated in what I am doing.
Many of the "good" Djs from the psy trance (and I am generalizing) come from different genres and backgrounds. And we did not learn mixing with psy trance.
With techno and progressive you can just have fun with mixes. Progressive has 3 minute intros and 3 minute outros in the mixes. You can sit back and fool about with as many fxs as you want. Techno is a type of music made for DJs... If you do not mix three with techno... it tends to be a tad boring. House I find it a tad harder because of the melodies and vocals etc. In that sense is similar to psy trance.
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
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2849
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 23:41
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On 2005-06-14 20:25, Madpup wrote:
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On 2005-06-14 18:09, offthenutboom wrote:
Mixing psy trance is a bitch. You have to have perfect timing and an absolute knowledge of the tracks.
I love Goa Gil, because 1) He is a Holy Man 2) He plays for 24hrs!!!! 3) His track selection is outstanding to say the least 4) His energy is always positive... He provides the full journey from beginning to end + he was one of the ppl who started the whole trance movement... So from me I just have to say: "More power to him to whatever he does and however he does it"
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Your First point: I dont see how mixing psy is that much harder than other genres.
Your Second point: I know I will probably get death threats for saying this, but I only saw Goa Gil play once. He played dark, pounding tracks for the 9 hours that i was at the party, there was absolutely zero flow, not sure what journey that was. Put on top of that his 5 second mixes, and some really bad, poorly produced tunes (there were some good ones as well, I do admit). I have full respect for him as the founder of the scene, but from what I have seen, I fail to see why he is anything more than a relique in this scene.
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Thats the underground man. U were at the wrong party if there was no flow, or u didn't get the flow.
And whats up with the quality, sure there will be no flow if the people checking out every single detail in every track. There is to much reverb, there to less mid range, here to much delay, to much highs, to less highs....
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clown
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 15, 2005 02:39
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I think people just expect to get "more" when the DJ they are listening to is recognised as "elite".. but people don't understand that "elite" is just another word for popular or mainstream, not nessisarily talented.
I think every Dj has the "storyline" effect, even if they mix old, played out tracks. Every Dj also has a sence of progression because they are in control, and if they feel two tracks work well together, then they do..to that person, regardless what others may think.
maybe to others, they will disagree, but who is the judgeof this?? The psytrance police?? hehehe
There is no correct way to build up a progression. There are strange progressions, like if the begining is harder than the middle, but even then, who are we to judge.. maybe that's the effect they wanted to give out.. There is no right way to mix either because some try to mix, I.E, beatmatch, and they trainwreck all there mixes (that would be seen as bad mixing),.. so now, we know what bad mixing is, but whats good mixing?? keeping the flow?? what does that mean exactly? not going from Astrix to Son Kite then from son kite to sphongle, then to midi miliz then to wizzy noise?? playing all tracks that sound exactly the same so people don't realise the tracks have changed?? What is a good fade mix?? whats a bad fade mix?? Whats a good story?? please, we need to stop using words and elaborate on things.. enough with this "his mystical presence is enough for me" crap.. Spending your life in this scene should not make you a "good DJ".
And for the quality issues, i think its very important that we get good quality music at our parties and people SHOULD be uptight about this because there are SOOO many DJ's taking up space for the one's that are dedicated. The one's who buy all there music, the supporters.
And the irony behind this topic is that all the artist / label managers are the worst at DJing, yet they get the most attention. (general statement).
think about it.. 
"VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Cosmos Mariner
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
132
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 04:30
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On 2005-06-14 13:54, Krell wrote:
Goa Gil isnt the only artist DJing dark psy in the world.
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you're right! but i didn't say that.
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On 2005-06-14 13:54, Krell wrote:
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"we listen to crazy psychedelic music! why should it always be smooth transition? "
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Because it sounds better. Dont delude yourself, even though you perceive the music as crazy and psychedelic, its still very much order and not chaos you are listening to.
This is definately true for Goa Gils trackselection (there are tracks who are very much more chaotic than what he spins), and those often have nothing to do with "psytrance" at ALL. Its more electronica
Quote:
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"sometimes: fadeout, slam in! ... and boom you're down another path "
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If it works if works - If it works for you, then fine If it works for the majority of the people at the party, then fine (as long as beatmatching or any other style of mixing wouldnt work better).
Its about the best possible presentation of the tracks and the flow.
No one can state as a fact that it is beatmatching, however, most tend to agree that it is, but only if its done right.
Best Wishes
Krell
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i'm not deluded - i understand very well how much thought and structure goes into what sounds like chaos. but forgive me, i guess what i "percieve" as crazy and psychedelic is really Smooth Jazz. man, that must have been some good acid 
beatmatching gets boring sometimes. yes, its the standard by which 99.99% of people are judged - my point was that i appreciate Gil's style for being different.
i think it suits the whole psychedlic theme -it's acid on acid. acid squared, if you will.
it's actually very careful and methodical, dropping a track in just the right spot. and to me, it sounds very natural. listening to these powerful sounds, its not intuitive to me that they MUST smooooothly flooooow into each other.
and "gil doesn't play psytrance?" well that's a controversial statement, try posting it on the main forum, something like: ""dark trance" isn't psytrance" - see what kind of response you get.
and finally, yes, it works for me, it sure worked for everybody at the party, and no, i don't see how beatmatching could have made the party one bit better.
i guess us weirdos in san francisco just don't understand this whole "trance" concept. better to just leave us alone
sound is vibration |
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 15, 2005 06:15
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On 2005-06-15 02:39, clown wrote:
And for the quality issues, i think its very important that we get good quality music at our parties and people SHOULD be uptight about this because there are SOOO many DJ's taking up space for the one's that are dedicated. The one's who buy all there music, the supporters.
And the irony behind this topic is that all the artist / label managers are the worst at DJing, yet they get the most attention. (general statement).
think about it..
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Totally agree with you on this one Clown..
Be demanding, but at the same time explore!!
Explore the many underground parties, smaller parties and get to experience the sets of many wannabe , younger, unexposed dj's and if their no good, dont' hold back constructive criticism.
But dont go cartin off to every party which headlines an international act if u know the music is crap...
Support !!
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jun 15, 2005 11:55
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@Cosmos Mariner
Quote Cosmos Mariner
"you're right! but i didn't say that. "
This was about Goa Gil not being the only dark psy DJ - I said that because you said you like his style, and I just wanted to point out his style isnt THAT unique - So, I pointed out, you can spin within his style and still be more open to different mixing approaches and not just fade mixing.
Heres my point, he is limited as to how he can mix his tracks... Its not a matter of being different, he doesnt have the option of doing things differently, since he is locked into one particular mixing technique - All he can do is variations of fade mixing.
Quote Cosmos Mariner
"i'm not deluded - i understand very well how much thought and structure goes into what sounds like chaos. but forgive me, i guess what i "percieve" as crazy and psychedelic is really Smooth Jazz. man, that must have been some good acid "
Some jazz is quite weird I think hehe Well, then for the mixing style then - You said that you thought that more chaotic mixing style (which I call bad mixing) works better with his music... and of course, if it works for you, it is absolutely correct - Noone can deny that "if it work it works" My point was, that beat matching doesnt take away "chaos" in the music, since beatmatching actually follows the music very precisely when done correctly (synchronous beats, phrasing/timing and EQing).
When doing it right, it feels a lot more like putting in a new groove in a track, building on it rather than anything else.
Quote Cosmos Mariner
"beatmatching gets boring sometimes. yes, its the standard by which 99.99% of people are judged - my point was that i appreciate Gil's style for being different. "
Indeed, especially if you beatmatch via the same variation every time... I mean, you have a basic technique, and you can apply it in different ways... So, you need to do variations within that technique to keep it interesting, and for it to suit the music.
I do both beat and fade mixing + variations of both. Sometimes I do a fade mix, which is actually a beat mix where the beats are lined up, but you cant hear them due to it being an intro/outro.
So you see, Goa Gils style isnt different to me at all - I was djing like that the first many years of my djing career (or whatever you want to call it), because I had no skills what so ever. Hes stuck in DJ kindergarten as to his technique.
I still use that technique, when its called for - and sometimes it is... its important, not to be narrowminded about music, and in djing, that goes for mixing technique as well.. Goa Gil is narrowminded in that regard... You will know exactly what to expect from every mix - Either an "ok fade" or a "trainwreck". Also, as a dj, he is narrowminded musically - Or, at least he seems to be, since he only spins that dark psy stuff. Its like doing a painting, only in variations of blue! (or so it seems to me).
Quite Cosmos Mariner
"i think it suits the whole psychedlic theme -it's acid on acid. acid squared, if you will.
it's actually very careful and methodical, dropping a track in just the right spot. and to me, it sounds very natural. listening to these powerful sounds, its not intuitive to me that they MUST smooooothly flooooow into each other."
Well, thats the most important thing then, that you get a good experience... All I can do of course, is to account for my own.. Its also a matter of philosophy I guess, I mean, Djing politics if you will For me, its intuitive to make the most inaudible transition from track to track while retaining as much of the energy as I can, and perhaps being able to build or add energy inside the mix.. Sometimes its the opposite, I want to remove energy, pull people out of the trance and start a new one.. Its like, changing lanes or going to another level in your trancestate.
Quote Cosmos Mariner
"and "gil doesn't play psytrance?" well that's a controversial statement, try posting it on the main forum, something like: ""dark trance" isn't psytrance" - see what kind of response you get"
Oh, you understood me wrong there, or maybe I didnt explain myself clearly. Goa Gil certainly spins psytrance, the "dark psy" he´s spinning is what I would call "true psytrance", or at least, the most psychedelic trance we have. I was talking about music in general, that, the psytrance he is spinning isnt that psychedelic compared to alot of other music I have heard...
Many people almost state that the meaning of the music is to be psychedelic, most of all - and not really trance as I would say the main purpose is.... this is all fine, but, dark psy isnt really the most psychedelic music around, that was my point
Quote Cosmos Mariner
"and finally, yes, it works for me, it sure worked for everybody at the party, and no, i don't see how beatmatching could have made the party one bit better."
It worked very well for most when he played here as well - and for sure, it was an experience. He was, by no means as bad a mixer as I had feared, and I even went dancing myself for a while. Still, I found, at least for me, many points where he was lacking - and I fellt others might have done a better job. So it was quite annoying that he was to be the only dj at the party (he insists) - also, it was more a matter of presenting "the founder of goa trance" and an international name, than really creating a party where different djs or liveacts could present music. Difficult to explain, but with only a few parties a year in my area, I would like to have seen more people get the chance to express themselfes.
Doesnt matter to you though, you like his sets, and thats good for you This might actually be like explaining why you dont like to eat carrots to a person that loves them hehe
Best Wishes for your future tripping and I hope you have some great times with papa goa at the decks also :-D
Krell Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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offthenutboom
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 15, 2005 18:03
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Clown,
Good DJs for me are those who make me dance all night with a smile in my face. Music with power @ points and breaks on others. One style @ one point and then another later on... but always keeping a theme or personality.
How do I know he or she is a good DJ. I look around and if ppl are going off the nut like me for the whole set Then we have a winner. Now He is awesome if this is repeated consistently in different parties.
I do not want to quatize it either. I mean there is always a sense of awe when we encounter someone who dominates anything in life and are masters of their own craft. |
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Glen.C (Iboga Rec)
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 15, 2005 19:28
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Quote:
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On 2005-06-14 21:38, clown wrote:
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On 2005-06-14 18:09, offthenutboom wrote:
Mixing psy trance is a bitch. You have to have perfect timing and an absolute knowledge of the tracks.
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I 80% disagree with that statement. Why?? Because most psytrance is all produced with the same formate.. The only bitch is when there are unexpected long breakdown's in the ending minute of the track. Most of the time, with around 2 minutes remaining in the track, you have a little breakdown, and the track starts up again with about 1:45 remaining in the track.. that's when i generally start my beatmix.
the other 20% is for the exceptions, where the artist doesn't put a breakdown that late in the track and puts it with about 3 minutes left in the track or 3 and a half minutes left. In this case, you have to wait and count your 64 bar's and start your cue at the begining of a 64 bar. But yeah, it helps alot if you know when your tracks breakdown to avoid getting caught up in-between mixes..
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I get what you saying... most dance music of the 4/4 style is straight forward to blend...
I normaly mix aroun 1:30 to 2:30 mins out of a track... I can normally fit so the first break down/or build/ or bass line comes in for the 2nd track... But I don't have to beat count for this, I think after time and practice it just comes as second nature... after you've got this nailed you need a good track selection and also have the skill of reading a crowd and knowing what they want, with the exception of the odd suprise to spice things up!
http://www.facebook.com/GlenC.IbogaRecords
http://www.myspace.com/gleniboga
www.iboga-records.dk
Spikers & Midinoize - Lisbon Hooker (Glen C rmx) coming soon on Earhead Audio |
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lurk
IsraTrance Junior Member
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226
Posted : Jun 18, 2005 12:20
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ok, i'm going to make this a little bit personal (but not that much) hehehe. clown started this thread about 3 minutes after calling my mixing "shabby" (fair enough, he's entitled to his opinion) on another thread. now, i'm not pretending to be a "big name" dj, but i do get bookings to play internationally, and a lot of people download my mixes (one of them has been downloaded nearly 4000 times) so i must be doing something right.
The reason for me saying this is not to stand up for myself, it's to illustrate this point: if a dj can perform to a good standard technically (ie no trainwrecks, knows how to count the bars, knows his music), then in this scene people are much more concerned about the vibe, the music and the story than mixing trickery. In fact i know a lot of people who get fed up if the dj tries to be too clever (use too many fx/plays with the eqs too much etc), because then it becomes all about what the dj can do, and not about what the music can do... and that imho is not what psy-trance is all about.
I said no to drugs... but they didn't listen |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Jun 18, 2005 16:00
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@Lurk
Quote Lurk "ok, i'm going to make this a little bit personal (but not that much) hehehe."
Hey I know you ! You heard me djing in 98 when I couldnt beatmatch proberly at all I pity you
Quote Lurk "clown started this thread about 3 minutes after calling my mixing "shabby" (fair enough, he's entitled to his opinion) on another thread."
Well, I think it was more due to the topic in the promotion forum about one of the aerogroove online sets - but perhaps, a combination of things - For sure, you do not need to take it personal.
Quote Lurk "i'm not pretending to be a "big name" dj, but i do get bookings to play internationally, and a lot of people download my mixes (one of them has been downloaded nearly 4000 times) so i must be doing something right."
Nice promotion, thats paramount - People to push you forward, connections etc - This is far more important than anything else when it comes to getting DJ gigs in the psy scene.
I think, as such, its more a part of the problem than the solution - I mean, this topic is about bad mixing/djs - the fact that you get international bookings doesnt mean you are a good dj, just means you are well connected + get good promotion. Also, good promotion isnt = good djing either.
Its just like when they go to pick a president in the US, its not about being a good statesman, its about being good at selling yourself
Quote Lurk "if a dj can perform to a good standard technically (ie no trainwrecks, knows how to count the bars, knows his music), then in this scene people are much more concerned about the vibe, the music and the story than mixing trickery."
Like I also wrote earlier, being a good DJ is about balancing out many things, flow, technique, trackselection, attitude, promotion, pricing, dedication and so forth. So I agree 100%.
Quote Lurk "In fact i know a lot of people who get fed up if the dj tries to be too clever (use too many fx/plays with the eqs too much etc), because then it becomes all about what the dj can do, and not about what the music can do... and that imho is not what psy-trance is all about."
Well, to defend Clowns standpoint, he was talking about beatmatching skills - and not effects And I very much agree with you, for psy djing, theres a very good chance you will mess up the music with too much trickery. Again, its a balance, sadly a balance that many a DJ is not able to keep, so, its as relevant a point as bad beatmatching. Still, only 1 point out of many.
Most important is djs who take what they do serious, and who are aware what building blocks make up a good dj. Taking the job serious, is also about having FUN djing! No fun, No vibe. You knew that from day 1
This can be said for organizers as well, they should be serious about what they create, and understand enough of everything to make it all work out for the better..
Now, for you personally Lurk - Dont see it as a bad thing that someone gives you negative critique, you know better than that
Also, keep on getting better and better at what you do! Just because you have what it takes to do what you do, you still need to get better and better at it ALL THE TIME, and be very happy people like Clown are there to help you in that endavour.
Some of us, will be listening, and we will notice the difference - Make us happy And, we ARE listening first for the music, and not the technical mistakes... A dj can strive for "perfect mixing" but will never achieve it, the only ones who can mix music to perfection are the ones creating it in the first place.
Also, keep it up, or you will hear from us - Since we are damn envious of the gigs you are getting, and you can be sure that we will make you live up to your fullest potential just to get even with you!!!
doei.
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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clown
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 20, 2005 05:22
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Quote:
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On 2005-06-18 16:00, Krell wrote:
Quote Lurk "i'm not pretending to be a "big name" dj, but i do get bookings to play internationally, and a lot of people download my mixes (one of them has been downloaded nearly 4000 times) so i must be doing something right."
Nice promotion, thats paramount - People to push you forward, connections etc - This is far more important than anything else when it comes to getting DJ gigs in the psy scene.
I think, as such, its more a part of the problem than the solution - I mean, this topic is about bad mixing/djs - the fact that you get international bookings doesnt mean you are a good dj, just means you are well connected + get good promotion. Also, good promotion isnt = good djing either.
Its just like when they go to pick a president in the US, its not about being a good statesman, its about being good at selling yourself
Like I also wrote earlier, being a good DJ is about balancing out many things, flow, technique, trackselection, attitude, promotion, pricing, dedication and so forth. So I agree 100%.
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Krell: You understand exactly where im comming from, and that is exactly WHY i started this topic.. I find it kinda sad that alot of dj's get bookings because of contacts they have as apose to there ability to trance up the dance floors with proper talent. You know, like we say, its not because you have a big dick that you know how to use it
Lurk: Im really happy that you took your "Carreer" to a higher level with your international gigs. Its great to see a local get out of his hometown and move on to a different crowd. There are many ways to get booking internationally though, and not all is because of talent. "you book me, i book you" is a very commun way of doing business, and as long as your not just booking the other person to get out of the country and its because you really like what they can do, than its great. im not implying that those are the reason's you got booked, but they are commun solutions.
I would really look forward in hearing one of your latest demo mixes some time soon. keep us up to date, for im always up to some good listening. Ohh, BTW, when i said "shabby", you have to understand that i am a very picky listener, and you cannot take this too personal. I just like giving critic to people, but i must admit it wasn't too constructive in this case for i haven't heard the mix of your's in over 2 years. hehe..
PEACE !!
"VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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splinter
Splinter / Kode Six
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
578
Posted : Jun 20, 2005 09:29
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Vinny, a good mix is when you mix =P |
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stras
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
75
Posted : Jun 20, 2005 19:35
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I take great importance in mixing,perhaps its cos i originally come from the Techno/House scene.
Also i love to see a little bit more than beat matching,cutting,use of Fx and sampling (a bit more
difficult with Psy Trance).
Djs like L Elf, Kristian,Marcello Vor, and Dino Psaras,have proven to me that its possible for all this in Psy Trance.
But i do admit it not the masses main priority,its the tunes. |
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DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 20, 2005 21:28
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I would much rather hear someone fading in-out while playing amazing psychedelic tracks than hear a highly technical DJ play 2 hours of uninspired boring crap.
having said that, I think every DJ should learn how to mix properly. no reason not to. but please, no FX, no backspins, no cutting, no scratching. If you play "psy" house or techno, sure, do it. just not with Psytrance. if you want to fuck around, go make some tracks.
2 cents
..it's just another party.. |
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clown
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jun 20, 2005 21:41
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Dimitry: that's true.. I never saw the point in FX's, cut's (unless its a fast cut at the end of a 32 or 64 bar), skratching nor backspins. That isn't what i mean by "bad Dj's"..
bad dj's = offbeats, badly timed mixes, real short badly EQ'd mixes, a dj set built of only fade mixing (if i want to just listen to the music i can do it in my car or at my house. We are at a show people, a SHOW.. you have to SHOW something, not just play stuff.. hehe..)
"VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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