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shamanism in trance
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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725
Posted : Jan 20, 2006 09:16
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"Every system has rules set up. They've created their own reality."
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Yeah, and you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want.
But hallucinogens in an instant open your eyes to a new reality you never dreamed of.
You come face to face with how many illusions you carry that are just made up by society as well as your own inner trip.
And like psycosmo said these plants make you aware of your thoughts (among other things).
It can be a hard experience as suddenly you realize how naked you are with all you think. You realize how your thoughts like vibes are felt by everyone, councious or not just like telepathy. So hiding behind the mask becomes a problem, and you are then forced to become mindful of all the vibes you send to everyone with your thoughts.
And that's when you become part of the "true psychedelic society" (joke)
Anyways these type of awakenings can happen in the mountain with a shaman or in the trance party. So I think in this sense some psy trance parties really do become shamanic journeys for many people. Yeah, maybe there was no dicipline or fasting beforehand, but if in the end there was true growth and you come out a better and more aware person then maybe it is comparable to some other shamanic experiences.
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"When we dream alone it is only a dream;
When we dream together, it is the beginning of reality"
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lalala
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 15:03
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On 2006-01-19 19:03, Kire-naj wrote:
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On 2006-01-19 18:32, lalala wrote:
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On 2006-01-19 15:11, 14-year old e-tard wrote:
Of course you can, sacrificing human beings, is plain wrong...anyway you look at it.
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Well in your opinion, and for that matter mine too, but for those who volunteered it was not wrong from their way of looking at it therefore your statement is incorrect.
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Not to go politically offtopic here, but extreme islamic groups belive that by killing your self and people around you with (lets say) a bomb, in the name of Allah. You will be blessed and sendt to "heaven".
Does that make it right?
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thats different though, because islamic extremists kill other people as well not just themselves. I guess it boils down to freedom of choice. If you want to kill yourself to me thats your own business (however Im not so sure about that either) , to kill others is a different matter though . |
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Pt.
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 15:49
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Do you believe in a conscious life after death? People are people, and people believe in many strange and not so logical things. People are pack animals (right word?). We're sheep’s wanting to follow a leader/shaman/priest/god.
But of course. There's a "big" difference in killing your self and/or others because of believes, then to "only" kill your self. But hey! Many of the people who where sacrificed because of holy beliefs did not want to die. Top athlete guys where also killed in the name of a god/power. It's just human stupidity imo.
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lalala
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 15:55
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Many of the people who where sacrificed because of holy beliefs did not want to die. Top athlete guys where also killed in the name of a god/power. It's just human stupidity imo.
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LoL I believe all sorts of things and and at the same time nothing ~~~waves hand mysteriously in fron of face~~~
im sure not everyone was a happy willing volunteer, but some were !
Yeah the aztecs got a bit grizly the Mayans had there moments too. Evidence of people being kept and "bled" for months before sacrifice. Makes me laugh seeing all these hippies prattling on about Mayan astrology and culture when the real thing would probably scare the living daylights out of them.
Ho hum all speculation mind. |
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lalala
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
89
Posted : Jan 20, 2006 16:00
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On 2006-01-19 18:56, 14-year old e-tard wrote:
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On 2006-01-19 18:32, lalala wrote:
Well in your opinion, and for that matter mine too, but for those who volunteered it was not wrong from their way of looking at it therefore your statement is incorrect.
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Who in their right mind would volunteer to kill them selves? If shamans or what have you, convinced people to sacrifice them selves, that is an entirely different matter, but still, fundamentaly wrong and stupid, if I might add.
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Dude i make no pretense at understanduing ancient mayan culture but, but at a guess dying wasnt such a big deal for these people. |
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Pt.
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
236
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6106
Posted : Jan 20, 2006 16:58
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On 2006-01-20 15:55, lalala wrote:
Makes me laugh seeing all these hippies prattling on about Mayan astrology and culture when the real thing would probably scare the living daylights out of them.
Ho hum all speculation mind.
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hehe, ditto. Maya culture was on a brink of becoming the worlds most powerful capetalistic culture. No one is safe from capetalisms evil hand. It will convert even the most holiest cultures like the Mayans. - I got a few friends who adore the mayans ect. But they know nothing about the reality, they dont watch History Channel 
God damn new-wave-hippies-with-no-reasnible-clue.
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lalala
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 19:26
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Well the Mayan Calender is certainly an amazing piece of work. They calculated the exact time of year as 365.242 days whereas our modern teqhniques tell us that its 365.24219 days . Atonishing huh ?
Certainly worthy of serious study, an intelligent people, and who knows what roles that hallucinogens played in their understanding of the cosmos and the world around them.
But turning all this into some sort of new age cult as many seem to be doing seems bad to me. People charge lots of money to have mayan calender readings done by non mayans weho have little or no understanding of the true culture. To me this is cutural misapropriation and exploiting the naivete of people who are looking for a direction /deeper meaning in life.
Some of these people get real dogmatic about it too ! |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 21:24
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For a while it was thought the Mayas were peaceful star-gazing people. But now we know they had wars all the time including some gruesome rites. Regardless, the Maya are still very mysterious. Archeologists are just barely putting the pieces together, the thing is at one point they abandoned their cities and left everything to be buried under the rainforest. So its like a lost world being rediscovered. And not just the Mayas, for instance the largest ancient city in the Americas is Teotihuacan, of which despite many years of research still almost nothing is known. Like most Maya cities, Teotihuacan was abandonded way before the arrival of Europeans. Anyways, there is a mural in Teotihuacan that depicts a drawing of the hallucinogenic plant datura, so they were obviously into hallucinogens as well. Here is a pic of the mural:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/teotihuacan/tlaloc.gif
We know little of these ancient cultures, but how much do we know of some of the present ones??? How much for instance do we know of the ayahuasqueros in the Amazon or the mushroom curanderas in the Mazatec mountains??
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lalala
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 21:43
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Oooh I used to live in the Amazon and I could tell you plenty about the "ayahuasceros" and curranderos. Lets just say mystical gringos are most welcome in the amazon, but dont forget to bring your credit card and plenty of travellers cheques (=:
come to think of it amigo how much do we know about the Jewish kabalah, or the Nahuatl of your pais ? They are the Azteks right ?
Maybe some of these things are private ? |
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lalala
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 21:49
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On 2006-01-20 09:16, Aluxe wrote:
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"Every system has rules set up. They've created their own reality."
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Yeah, maybe there was no dicipline or fasting beforehand, but if in the end there was true growth and you come out a better and more aware person then maybe it is comparable to some other shamanic experiences.
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the problem is that many people come out of the drug experience more damaged than when they went in. It might be great at first, but ten years down the line , Twenty ? then some junkie sitting on there sofa or maybe mental institution, the lucky ones escape before burning out or worse turn to cocaine. Most of the people i know who were heavily into ha;llucinogens end up sirtting around smoking weed all day and doing nothing.
I know its not like that for everyone but.... The lack of dicipline and culturally informed practises can mean that people are unprepared for what they face, whereas in a more diciplined and traditional use of hallucinogens there is firm dicipline that can protect you.
i got a lot out of acid, but ill never touch it again, others i know went a bit mad. |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 22:12
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| But turning all this into some sort of new age cult as many seem to be doing seems bad to me. People charge lots of money to have mayan calender readings done by non mayans weho have little or no understanding of the true culture. To me this is cutural misapropriation and exploiting the naivete of people who are looking for a direction /deeper meaning in life. |
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LOL i got a funny story about that. These German New Age tourists are in rural Guatemala to see a Maya daykeeper. They've read a ton of new age books and have very set ideas spirituality, including a belief in crystals. So they show up to this daykeepers ceremony crystals in firmly in hand and preconcieved notions firmly in mind. So this daykeeper, he's cooking some food on a western style metal stove, and immidiatly the tourists start bitching and moaning about how this guy must not be a real daykeeper because he's using metal pots and pans and stove and various western impliments. The daykeeper tries to explain to them that nobody lives exactly the way people did before conquest, and that using a metal stove is just a fact of life and it doesnt make him any less "authentic" as a Maya. So the tourists grumblingly agree to go ahead with the ceremony. So the daykeeper sets up his altar, is getting his palm fronds ready and everything, when these tourists, these complete fools start demanding to know where his crystals are. After all he's a shaman and all shamans use crystals, their new age books said so and they wouldnt lie, would they? So this daykeeper doesnt know what to say, he tries to explain to them that crystals and crystal healing dont have jack shit to do with what he is doing, but the tourists harangue the guy so much that he finally throws up his hands and lets the stupid gringo customers put their stupid crystals on the altar.
Pretty funny story eh?
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the problem is that many people come out of the drug experience more damaged than when they went in. The lack of dicipline and culturally informed practises can mean that people are unprepared for what they face, whereas in a more diciplined and traditional use of hallucinogens there is firm dicipline that can protect you.
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I agree 100%
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lalala
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 22:29
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LMAO is that for real ???? jeez yeah people have these expectations. i guess i did once too but living in South America and meeting real people not just figmants of my imagination kind of educated me.
My ex was one for "enganando" mystical gringos, but some of the people turning up to take ayahuasca deserved it . They were completely disrespectful idiots, the treated ayahuasca like it was just another hallucinogenic joy ride, traditionally you did a strong diet before you took this stuff a week or so before but these guys no, they just wanted to neck it straight away and because Peru is a poor countryand theese morons had cash - well the locals obliged them. |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 22:44
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You mean that some ayahuasqueros shamans are fake? yeah, but it is the world of the real shamans that I am more curious about. And yes, some psy trancers are harmed by hallucinogens, but well for some others it transforms the person for the good. So in this context calling the psy trance scene a form of shamanism is not that far fetched, specially considering how vague and ambiguous the term shaman is.
And yes most people go to the trance parties, well to party, for fun. Is fun incompatable with wisdom and shamanism? does it all have to be grave to be real? maybe the ultimate shamanistic realization is to be happy, free and celebrate life without worries in a liberated dance of joy.
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lalala
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 20, 2006 22:57
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On 2006-01-20 22:44, Aluxe wrote:
You mean that some ayahuasqueros shamans are fake? yeah, but it is the world of the real shamans that I am more curious about. And yes, some psy trancers are harmed by hallucinogens, but well for some others it transforms the person for the good. So in this context calling the psy trance scene a form of shamanism is not that far fetched, specially considering how vague and ambiguous the term shaman is.
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Sigh - yes i know what you mean, real ones do exist but they are few and far between. Its not so much people are fakes as economic pressures. Plus it takes hours to make ayahuasca is a lot of work that a poor campesino could be out working to feed the family so yes they deserve some money but many suddenly "become" shamans. if you really want to learn about it then if you speak spanish go to Peru but you know id say most of the people who approach you for ayahuasca are looking for money. Still if you do the diet its between you and the plant.
Yes hallinogens can benefit but if you dont have to work for those benefits will they last long ? its so easy to swallow some pill but its hard to follow a dicipline . I guess its looking at short term and long term benefits. how many old hippies do you know ? are they happy and fulfilled ?
Out of curiosity where are you from, what culture ? |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 21, 2006 01:00
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My impression is that there are a good number of real shamans out there, but that westerners are not likely to get "the real deal" because people who serve tourists have learned to play to the romantic notions that westerners often have about shamans, Native Americans, the whole "noble savage" fantasy that so many Euro-americans are afflicted with.
As a result of unrealistic expectations, many people are disappointed to find that the mundane, pedestrian realities of life are just as much a part of shamanism as they are of life anywhere else in the world. Thus, people are encouraged to play to western tastes when the do ceremonies for tourists.
I dont think this necessarily means that the shamans themselves are fakes, they are just giving people what they want. It may be that when they do a ceremony for family or friends that they do it differently because they dont have to impress anyone, keep the people with the money happy.
Ive never been down to any of these places, but if and when I do I will be very careful try and avoid tourist traps and meet with a shaman based on a personal rapport. I would never go see a shaman who was not at least a friend of a friend of a friend, and whom I had not gotten aquainted with before the ceremony.
Finally, it is important to remember that really deep in the wilderness, many people don't even speak Spanish, so knowing that might not even be enough. In the further flung regions people speak Quechua, Aymara, Kachiqual, Tzotzil, and many other languages. those ancient languages are alive and well in parts of South and central America, respectively.
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