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shamanism in trance
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shamanizer
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
367
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 17:51
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No, I havent been introduced to any shaman and yes, most likely there are also fake shamans.
I agree with New Era Scientist.
If someone wishes to meet a real shaman, I wouldn't necessarily recommend to look from a phone book, i recommend to pack your bagback and go to places where indigenous tribes still exist. Nearly every tribe has a shaman of some sort, a healer or a holy man. Like sais before, there are many varietes depending on the culture. But all these variations have their roots deep in shamanistic tradition. |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 18:03
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On 2006-01-08 09:30, nolightatend wrote:
Is there shamans who still alive? or they had vanished with modern culture?
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Please read my posts. I just quoted for you in the beginning of this topic a bunch of books and essays dealing with Shamans, that still do exist today all over the world.
It seem that you like to talk about facts, but you don't seem to have any interest in checking new ones supplied to you. And if you don't, what is the point in you taking part in this discussion flagging the facts criteria all over your posts? Unless you just enjoy the arguments...
And no, I haven't met shamans, that does not mean I cannot be convinced that they do exist. There is no chance for development of knowledge if we don't use it's accumulation.
As I stated before, the existence of shamans in their classic tribal form is in danger as hunting and gathering societies are in danger. Especially in the Amazon where they are being chased out by big money looking to make more big money through cutting trees and growing soy beans for the new age western belly.
There are signs though, that the shaman concepts survives these changes somehow and shamans still exist even in transformed and destoryed ex-hunting and gathering societies.
I won't bother mentioning articles and books talking about that anymore, if anyone is interested, PM me.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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LiPoCat
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
90
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 19:01
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On 2006-01-08 13:51, nolightatend wrote:
Have you met with any of them?
Tell you real experience with real shaman.
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well I did! there is no difference between
sud america shaman, hindoues sadus, balinese
or many ppl around the world, same aproche,
looking for the high, strong inside, no standart ideas just open to outer perceptions |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 19:54
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@darkness
I have feeling you all speak in general, have any of you actually met with real shaman?
I can guess many things too, but have any of you ppl who speak about shamans, their powers and rest of things you believe they do and relate to?
as allready said, yes. and he teached me some stuff, but he only needed to make me trust, amazing!
the first technic i used was for money. i got it, it was a bank-mistake. after a quarter year, i had to pay it back.
the second was, that i was ungry about a person. i wanted to hurt. it did. the person was going to hospital with some bad thing in the ass, dont remember yet.
2 weeks later i was finished. my just layed a week just in my bed, with intensive realy painfull hurts in my stomach, and it was not the usual stomach stuff, this one was realy heavy. all i can image is that it took a week until the pains have gone.
believe it or not. i experienced it. everything you send out will be send back to you. and: trust is the most powerfull thing humans have within.
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 19:55
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I am a cybershamane, for a little dontation of 10€ i'll send u pure light energy power via the internet.
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 22:02
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EYB - ill remember that when i need a shot! but first shot is free??
anyway!
Mantik, i believe so aswell...
but one has to really use ones energies to achieve such things...
and ones you used those energies you are probably more sensitive your self..
so this you feelt might not be a revenge from the receiver, but more of a side effect of what you did...
something like, an eye for an eye. like you say "what you send out comes back!"
its the cosmic cycle! 
hurting others will hurt your self...
spread love! not hate 
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 23:10
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oh i dont know about about feeling more sensitive too such things i often realy dont feel so.
and you see i used it in this example for ego-things and also ugly things. good that i got the reverse back. good!! the real beauty experience is, that you only need to send love, and you will get love back, and thats maybe all we need.
but this is also not easy to aim in our alldays life. just read some of my posts here, my temper sometimes goes up, we are all humans with feelings, feelings besides of love.
and someone must go through deep shadows through his life until he maybe will find his peace with our world.
as my fellow said once: "no one said that it would be easy."
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 23:32
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Quote:
| There are signs though, that the shaman concepts survives these changes somehow and shamans still exist even in transformed and destoryed ex-hunting and gathering societies. |
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Yes the "Portals of Power" book (edited by Langdon and Baer) mentioned earlier contains excellent articles about "mestizo" (ie urbanized/latinized) ayahusaca shamanism. (The chapter is "Icaros: Magic Melodies of the Mestizo Shamans of the Peruvian Amazon, p.231-53, another chapter is "Sibudnoy Shamanism and Popular Culture in Columbia p. 297-305").
Also I took a religious studies course on religion in South America from a man who grew up in an Evangelical missionary family in the Amazon, and he told us that almost everyone goes to see shamans down there, at some point or another, be they rich, poor, indigienous, mestizo or white. Even conservative Evangelicals, who are officially strongly opposed to such "witchcraft" will often secretly see shamans for Ayahusaca ceremonies. My prof was telling us that even the President of Peru (or whoever was president of Peru in 2001) has used Ayahuasca.
Also, Ayahuasca shamanism has blended with Christianity and African-American Santeria to form a religious movment in Brazil called "Santo Daime", an ayahuasca consumeng church approved and allowed by the Brazilian Government, as well as several other Governments around the the world (I believe Portugal, Spain and the Netherlands protect them).
So yes there are still shamans and some of them are even actively evolving with the modern world.
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Jan 8, 2006 23:55
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Do Shamans still exist? hmmm,... yyah!
In Mexico every spring the Huichol Indians have their anual piligrimage to wirikuta where they gather peyote for their ceremonies. They call their shamans, marakame. But it is very hard to get to know the Huicholes and break into their world.
However a Japanese friend of mine did just that, and went through many ceremonies and officially became a huichol. I found it amazing.
I was told that some huichols have a rite of passage into adulthood where they blindfold the teen agers eyes at night and have them eat peyote. So they *trip out* all night in peyote and in the morning they take the blindfold of their eyes and tell them: that is the real world.
I have visited the area where the Huicholes collect the peyote, ofcourse I was looking for peyote. The most famous town around that area is Real del Catorce, but there are other places that are less known like Wadly which I think are better. Before you go into the desert everybody always tells you, do not look for the peyote, the peyote will find you. And so it did, after a while of looking for the peyote without luck I decided to grab a stone and said to myself: I will throw this stone and where it lands there the peyote will be. I threw it and much to my surprise next to the stone was a family of peyotes. Coincidences happen though. But you know I had some friends who went to the desert and walked, and walked, and walked, and walked (amazing scenery btw) looking for peyote with no luck. It started to get dark and they just gave up and decided to put their tent and camp there. Well the next morning, they just couldn't believe that exactly where they put their tent all around was full of peyotes. So yeah man, the peyote will find you. Although the last time I went right where a pick up truck left us in the middle of nowhere, after 5 steps we found peyote.
Another place where you find shamans in Mexico is in the sierra mazateca, the most famous town is called Huautla de Jimenez. The word "Huautla" means in mazatec: place where the mushroom grows. I went there several times and its an amazing place, magical land and where the famous wise woman mushroom healer Maria Sabina lived. Well in the 40s, Gordon Wasson (a reporter from NY) came to Mexico because he had heard tales of magic mushrooms and after asking and asking they told him to go to Oaxaca and from there to Huautla where he met Maria Sabina. Maria Sabina showed him the mushrooms and after that Gordon Wasson went back to NY and made an article about the mushrooms which caused in the late 60s the small town to be invaded by hippies. The hippies totally changed the vibe in regards to the mushrooms, now you go to Huahutla and even the little kids want to sell you the bags of hallucinogenic mushrooms. However in all that area and nearby towns there are shamans, or curanderas (medicine woman) and in the rainy season they collect these mushrooms and eat them sometimes everyday. They call the mushroom teonanacatl which means flesh of God. One time some ladies there did not want to sell me mushrooms because they said, what if you go crazy and then blame us. I told them, come on I have experience and taken LSD and other hallucinogenics.. I am cool. Little did I know btw, anyways that area is amazing.
Hey btw, check out some good examples of huichol art. Really psychedelic:
http://manana.mccorison.com/images/040205/Huichol%20bead%20work%204.JPG
http://www.indigoarts.com/gallery_huicholart1.html |
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The Green Channel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
41
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1025
Posted : Jan 9, 2006 01:13
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From a Entheogen forum, about modern shamanism:
"This essay makes comparisons between traditional Shamanic rituals and modern ones. It discusses the ways in which entheogens are involved in performing Shamanic rituals, and the religious freedoms that are associated with practicing Modern Shamanism.
The shamanic tradition has undoubtedly existed far longer than such religions as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Shamans across the globe have been using entheogens in their rituals for over a millennium to gain access to the spirit world. The word entheogen is derived from two ancient Greek words, entheos and genesthai. Entheos literally means “in God”, or can be more loosely translated as “inspired”. It was a term that the Greeks used to describe poets and other artists. Genesthai means “to cause to be”. Therefore, “an entheogen is that which causes a person to be in God.” (Maze) Entheogens come in many different forms, but are usually derived from a plant. They are more commonly known as “psychoactive drugs”. Humans have been using them in Shamanic rituals for as long as history can remember, likely for much longer. These drugs may even have played an important role in the evolution of mankind and religion as we know it. This essay makes comparisons between traditional Shamanic rituals and modern ones. It discusses the ways in which entheogens are involved in performing Shamanic rituals, and the religious freedoms that are associated with practicing Modern Shamanism.
The Incas in Peru used ayahuasca, the Aztecs in Mexico had magic mushrooms, and the Hippies in the USA had LSD. Hindus have soma and Rastafaris have marijuana. In fact, there are not many cultures in the world that cannot be associated with some form of ritual involving the use of entheogens. Traditional forms of shamanic rituals have become less prevalent today due to the extinction or elimination of most of the cultures that practiced them, but similar rituals have emerged and continued the Shamanic tradition in today’s society.
Traditional Shamans used entheogens combined with song, drumming, or dancing in order to help them enter into trance states. They believed that through these rituals, they were able to communicate directly with the spirit world. People are still performing Shamanic rituals such as dancing and sweat-lodging when they go to raves or live concerts. Much like traditional Shamanic rituals, raves can last for hours on end and push the body to its outer limits. It is during these peak-experiences that one is more likely to go into a trance state. (Maslow) The music played at raves is even called trance music. Rave music is also very drum-heavy, much like traditional Shamanic rituals.
Vision quests are another form of traditional Shamanic ritual, in which Shamans ingest entheogens such as magic mushrooms or peyote before going into meditation. The Aztec believed the magic mushroom to be “the flesh of god”. (Hofman) I agree with this belief because I myself experienced God while experimenting with magic mushrooms. Entheogens have the ability to impact a persons’ entire view on life forever, even after just one transcendental experience.
“The way the statistics are currently running, it looks as if from one-fourth to one-third of the general population will have religious experiences if they take the drugs under naturalistic conditions, meaning by this conditions in which the researcher supports the subject but doesn't try to influence the direction his experience will take. Among subjects who have strong religious inclinations to begin with, the proportion of those having religious experiences jumps to three-fourths. If they take them in settings which are religious too, the ratio soars to nine out of ten.” (Smith)
Vision quests are still practiced today by many modern Shamans, only the settings have changed. Instead of being in naturalistic settings, many teens ingest magic mushrooms in their basements, or on the streets of suburbia. Some do it merely for amusement and may never actually gain any spiritual insight from the use of magic mushrooms. But as the statistics show, and as I have experienced, some people are so greatly affected by the sacramental power of the drug, that a religious experience is induced even in the least naturalistic settings. I myself experienced visions of Christ during a mushroom trip, while I was in the back of a moving car. This is most likely because I was brought up a Roman Catholic and the car was where I went to escape from society. When I finally closed my eyes and broke free from my fears I was overwhelmed with love and tears started pouring down my face.
"Love is a way of life"
(Gaia, Love, Nature, Shamanism (.2A.y.0a.hu.1a.sc.2a.), Terence McKenna) |
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The Green Channel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
41
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1025
Posted : Jan 9, 2006 01:14
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An entheogen alters the users’ state of awareness, allowing him or her to perceive their world in new and different ways. The most common feeling associated with these altered states of consciousness is a profound feeling of sacredness; a connection from one’s spirit to the universe or in other words, a spiritual union with God. This is what I felt that I experienced during my mushroom journey. “One is shaken to the core…When you are experiencing Universal mind…the constricted Ego is gone” (Grey, 114)
Entheogens are considered by some to be ‘the shortcut to enlightenment’. I’d say, if there were a book on spiritual enlightenment, taking entheogens would be like taking a peek at the answers in the back of that book rather than reading the whole book one page at a time and doing all of the hard work. Some would consider this as cheating. Others, including myself, would say it can provide valuable insights that can help one to understand the process more fully. It may even re-instil faith in one who has given up on their beliefs because they can no longer identify with their religion, or perhaps have failed to form a true spiritual practice out of it.
Some entheogens are more dangerous than others, and their use should be supervised by experienced spiritual guides (Shamans). Entheogen enhanced Shamanic rituals can be performed more safely if they are supervised. With some entheogens the biggest danger is users getting impure forms of the drug, or taking too much of it at all once. Often very small doses are all that is needed in order for one to have a peak-experience. A lot of dangers could be avoided by controlling the sources of these drugs and encouraging safe practice. Also, a lot of money could be redirected out of the hands of drug dealers into the weak economies of the Third World countries that already produce these drugs for consumption in the First World. This is not possible however, due to the fact that entheogens are still hypocritically considered illegal by the First World. This forces Modern Shamans to experiment with entheogens in hiding and increases the risks of one harming oneself whilst experimenting with the drugs.
As we all know, our society is run by the all-powerful corporation. Consumerism is the method of control that keeps people sedated, suggestible, and highly profitable. Our capitalist society allows and promotes the usage of drugs such as caffeine, nicotine and alcohol. These are all drugs that keep people vulnerable and addicted. When it comes to drugs that expand our consciousness or empower us however, society tries its hardest to prevent us from gaining access to them. Obviously, this is because it is harder for institutions to control what people will do or think when their minds are free from the systems of control. “Religion and society have always been about control. And if you are a Shaman you have no need for religion or society. You have no need for greed and consumerism. They can't sell you anything.” (Icaro) Although this opinion may be guilty of making a generalization, there is in my opinion much truth about it. Those who benefit the most from today’s social structure have every reason not to allow the use of entheogens in modern Shamanic rituals. These rituals threaten their authority, control, and hence, their profits. This is why entheogens are labelled taboo by many religious institutions, and deemed criminal by government institutions.
Our society’s refusal to recognize the beneficial nature of entheogens can be compared to 17th century theologians refusing to look through Galileo’s telescope. Galileo had made a discovery that threatened their reality by proving that something existed outside of it. When they finally did look through his telescope, they quickly dismissed what they saw as machines of the devil. (Smith) We aren’t in the 17th century anymore, but the narrow-minded view that religion and society have towards entheogens would make it seem like we were. Entheogens have been proven to have beneficial effects on people, but are still forbidden because of the threat that they pose to the systems that control us.
Although the traditional Shamanic rituals have been slowly disappearing with the cultures that created them, new forms of Shamanism are being practiced today. There are many people of Non-Native heritage in our society who consider Shamanism to be their religion. To them, laws are imposed making the use of entheogens illegal. Modern Shamans of Non-Native heritage are thus forced to practice their religion in hiding, at the fear of persecution or prosecution. It is not just, that the government allow Native Americans to practice Shamanism and forbid it to people of Non-Native heritage. This is a form of religious discrimination on the governments’ behalf. The practice of Shamanism is alive and well. It should not matter what a person’s heritage is if they wish to practice it. We should all have the same right to practice whichever religion it is that we believe in. That is one of our fundamental freedoms in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. (Department of Justice Canada)
The Internet has been an influential tool for the spread of Modern Shamanism in today’s society. It has provided the infrastructure for the free flow of information between most members of society. In a time of rapidly increasing globalization, in which communications technology is improving every day, it is becoming harder and harder for systems of control to manipulate our realities. Any person with Internet access can readily gain access to almost any type of information they seek. This makes government and religious institutions less able to impose their narrow views about entheogens on society. People are beginning to take their spirituality into their own hands as many have lost faith in religion and have become alienated by their governments. Everything that one needs to know about entheogens can now be found on the Internet. And after reading the facts, it is easy to see that contrary to what society would have one believe, the negative effects associated with entheogens are actually miniscule compared to the positive effects.
Modern forms of Shamanism are becoming ever more present in society’s subculture with each passing day. It may only be a matter of time before Modern Shamanism becomes an organized religion. When this does happen, societies will again accept the sacramental value of entheogens, and respect Shamanism as the ancient civilizations once did"
"Love is a way of life"
(Gaia, Love, Nature, Shamanism (.2A.y.0a.hu.1a.sc.2a.), Terence McKenna) |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Jan 9, 2006 08:33
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One has to wonder though, in these altered states of counsciousness what is the mushroom speaking and what is your own mind.
And how much all you have learned since childhood affects your trip. My guess is a lot.
Like consider the Aztecs. Yeah they used the mushrooms, peyote, ololiqui and some other hallucinogenics. But have you heard about some of the rites they did using these plants?
Well there was one where they would sacrifice a person and then peel of their skin very carefully. Then the priest would put the skin of the dead person on top of his and they would dress him up and paint him to personify their God Huitzlopochtli. Finally the priest would ingest several hallucinogenic plants and start the cermony.
And all this while the Aztec DJ played dark psy trance. No I am kidding, but really the rest is true.
So would that grusome Aztec ceremony using hallucinogencis be considered a shamanic ceremony? Or does it all have to be peace and love? Maybe the Aztecs were a bit lost, thats all. However if so it just goes to show that you shouldn't necessarely believe every shamanic ceremony is good just because it involves hallucinogenics.
And probably you should also not believe everything you think in these altered states, it may be just nonsense.
Like one time, I took some mushrooms in some friends house. And then I went to take some garbage out, but then I notice in the neigbhors house there is an extremly strange person looking at me through the window. I start staring at him and he is just so damn weird that I almost start thinking its a fucking alien. Suddenly the alien barks, it was a dog on top of a couch staring at me from a dark room.
Or another friend had taken to much lsd for many days and thought that the aliens were coming to get him (maybe they were, no irony here). Anyways, one day in Palenque walking in the middle of the road towards the pyramids after taking a huge dose of lsd he sees a mini ban aproaching him. In his mind he thought, this is your time to die. And so proceeded to keep on walking straight to the mini ban welcoming his death as if it was something good almost in an enlighted manner. Well the ban just suddenly stopped and the driver got out and told him: what are you fucking crazy !!???
He came to his senses there.
Or another friend was in the desert eating peyote, well in his trip he sort of reached some kind of enlighted freedom and he took his clothes and threw them away in the middle of the desert in some kind of liberation act. Well he later walked from the desert into town and ofcourse in a repressed country like Mexico the police got him and made a big deal until he found some clothes to put on. I guess he forgot that the rest of society wasn't as enlighted as him.
Anyways, my point is that it seems that under the influence of hallucinogenics you not only have access to another dimension but the mind also can get carried away and so not everything you see and think is necessarely the sacred plant speaking to you. Sometimes its just your mind. Or were the Aztec shamans just right in their own way as they sacrificed people? they had another very different perception of death, this life to them was only a small part of a long journey with many levels.
well, I hope the forum admin people do not bust my ass, because I am not exactly sure if all I am saying is off topic.
cheers
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jan 9, 2006 12:11
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In both of the above posts, so much to respond to, too much for me to say all I would like to about them.
In response to the essay that Green Channel copied: Although I am sympathetic to the cause of the essay I dont think it would convince me if I didnt already agree. Where are these statistics about religious experiences and hallucinogens? I think I have come across those studys but I dont have the reference and Its not good to make statements like that without providing the primary source reference.
The a big flaw of this essay is that it fails to account for the widespread use of non-"entheogen" psychoactive substances in religious settings. The use of alcohol in similar contexts to "entheogens". Although Salvia divinorum and Psilocybe mushrooms are still used by shamans in Central America, use of alcohol in a similar context appears to be more common, this according to some Anthro professors I know who do fieldwork with Maya daykeepers in highland Guatemala and Yucatan Mexico.
Also the generalitization of the existance of hallucinogens use in a culture to that culture as a whole is also problematic. Just because something is part of a culture does not mean it is accepted as good. In most culture areas where hallucinogens are used there is a great deal of disagreement or at least ambivalance about them. For example Ayahuasca shamans are feared as much as they are admired, and shamans are often considered shady characters that people dont go to unless they really need to. "Sorcery" is a major concern for most shamanic cultures, and is intimatly intwined with "shamanism"
Finally, the conclusions are based on an uncrital acceptance of every hypothesized use of hallucinogens by a culture. Im sure there are many Vedic scholars who would take issue with the conclusion that the "Soma" mentioned in Vedic texts is in fact A. muscaria. Our red and white friend is certainly not mentioned by http://www.vedanet.com/Soma.htm in his discussion of the topic. Nor is it by any means established that the "kykyeon" ingested at the Eleusinian Mysteries of ancient Greece was a hallucinogen, although several authors have made strong arguments to that effect.
In response to Aluxe:
I think that what you bring up about rituals of human sacrifice in relation to hallucinogens is an important topic that doesnt get enough discussion in the enthogen community. It isnt a particularly pleasant subject for an enthogen lover but here is my best defense
1)Cultures all around the world have practiced horrific rituals involving bloodshed and torture. Human sacrifice took place in the ancient old world every time a king died and all his servants and wives got killed and put in the grave with him. The secular ritualistic killing of human beings was a public spectacle in ancient Rome. Ritual homicide also appears to have taken place in ancient Geece: http://www.fjkluth.com/grepq39.html Also we must not forget the castrati of both ancient and christian times. And burning at the stake also is an act with strong religious implications, as it enforces a sacred concept of "justice" on those who attempt to control the forces of nature.
2) War in ancient Mesoamerica was a lot diffent than we are used to thinking of it. People who were sacrificed were generally war captives, and wars were fought with the purpose of taking captives for sacrifice. These were called "flowery wars", and the purpose was not to kill ones opponents, but to catch them and take them back for sacrifice and possibly ritual consumption of their flesh as well. see http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/ciberletras/v05/kearns.html
3) Rituals probably came to be developed to avoid just the sort of acciedents and mishaps that you describe. That is one reason why it is good to treat hallucinogens as sacred, so that one will be more careful to avoid carelessness, stupidity and unfortunate accidents.
4) hallucinogen experience are, because they are hallucinogenic often misleading. However, if one is wise, one can study the way that hallucinogens mislead ones mind and use that information to know more about oneself. Why did you have the hallucination/delusion that you had, and not the one someone else had? Maybe that is the kind of question shamans exist to help us answer....
Im tired, Im going to bed 
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The Green Channel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
41
Posts :
1025
Posted : Jan 9, 2006 14:01
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On 2006-01-09 12:11, Psycosmo wrote:
Although I am sympathetic to the cause of the essay I dont think it would convince me if I didnt already agree.
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Off-course it wouldn’t, it’s an essay. It’s merely meant to create debate. I’m not nearly naïve enough to believe that such an essay would convince my father of the importance of psychedelics for instance, yet, if logic thrived in our society we wouldn’t make something as none-toxic as mushrooms illegal (most people would be able to eat half a kilo of psilocybin mushrooms without overdosing, nevertheless, most people need less then 1-10 grams), while, a very toxic substance like alcohol is legal. A newly released rapport in the UK, showed that 40 % of the people who arrived at the E.R (emergency hospitals), was somehow connected to the use of Alcohol. One should try to imagine how much this VERY dangerous substance costs society every year, not mention Tobacco and other officially endorsed substances. Our establishment thus acts as an arbiter of taste, which I find hypercritical and grievously unjust, since, my relationship with plants has forever enriched my life, in contrast to alcohol which nearly destroyed my life and several members of my family’s life. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to practice mý religion?
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On 2006-01-09 12:11, Psycosmo wrote:
Where are these statistics about religious experiences and hallucinogens?
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I think he wrote it was a guy called Smith who had conducted the research, in-addition, remember this is an essay and not a scientific paper. I might next year in sociology conduct such a scientific rapport in which I off-course would clearly state where such a statistic was from (I’ll keep you updated).
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On 2006-01-09 12:11, Psycosmo wrote:
The a big flaw of this essay is that it fails to account for the widespread use of non-"entheogen" psychoactive substances in religious settings. The use of alcohol in similar contexts to "entheogens".
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Actually as far as I know alcohol is one of the oldest used entheogens, although I clearly fail to see its spiritual value.
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On 2006-01-09 12:11, Psycosmo wrote:
Also the generalitization of the existance of hallucinogens use in a culture to that culture as a whole is also problematic. Just because something is part of a culture does not mean it is accepted as good. In most culture areas where hallucinogens are used there is a great deal of disagreement or at least ambivalance about them. For example Ayahuasca shamans are feared as much as they are admired, and shamans are often considered shady characters that people dont go to unless they really need to. "Sorcery" is a major concern for most shamanic cultures, and is intimatly intwined with "shamanism"
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Shamanic psychedelics are catalysts. They can be used for both good and bad purposes (albeit, good and evil (bad) are two sides of the same coin). In the sixties at least fifty percent of the alcoholic patients who were treated by Humphrey Osmond and his staff with LSD were essentially cured, after just two sessions, yet such incredible results weren’t created solitarily by the use of LSD, they were created by the user. Even Ibogaine doesn’t help addicts unless they truly wish to stop their abuse. Furthermore, one has to remember that people fear what they don’t understand; hence, people have a tendency to fear the native shamans.
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On 2006-01-09 12:11, Psycosmo wrote:
Finally, the conclusions are based on an uncrital acceptance of every hypothesized use of hallucinogens by a culture. Im sure there are many Vedic scholars who would take issue with the conclusion that the "Soma" mentioned in Vedic texts is in fact A. muscaria. Our red and white friend is certainly not mentioned by http://www.vedanet.com/Soma.htm in his discussion of the topic. Nor is it by any means established that the "kykyeon" ingested at the Eleusinian Mysteries of ancient Greece was a hallucinogen, although several authors have made strong arguments to that effect.
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I completely agree with you, one can’t be truly sure of anything, I have used a large portion of my time on planet earth on investigating our history, yet, I’m conscious of the possibility that our entire history might in truth be entirely falsely taught around the world, since, history is written by the victors. What I’m trying to say is nothing is certain; however, my personal research on the subject (Shamanism) has led me to believe that enthegens have existed and been used in practically every corner of the world. I might be wrong, so could our mainstream understanding of ancient Greece. The mysterious “voice” which is present throughout ancient Greek literature for example, is barely mentioned in mainstream lectures about ancient Greece, mainstream scholars simply neglect the appearance of this “voice”. .
"Love is a way of life"
(Gaia, Love, Nature, Shamanism (.2A.y.0a.hu.1a.sc.2a.), Terence McKenna) |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jan 10, 2006 02:44
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On 2006-01-09 14:01, The Green Channel wrote:
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On 2006-01-09 12:11, Psycosmo wrote:
Also the generalitization of the existance of hallucinogens use in a culture to that culture as a whole is also problematic. Just because something is part of a culture does not mean it is accepted as good. In most culture areas where hallucinogens are used there is a great deal of disagreement or at least ambivalance about them. For example Ayahuasca shamans are feared as much as they are admired, and shamans are often considered shady characters that people dont go to unless they really need to. "Sorcery" is a major concern for most shamanic cultures, and is intimatly intwined with "shamanism"
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Shamanic psychedelics are catalysts. They can be used for both good and bad purposes (albeit, good and evil (bad) are two sides of the same coin). In the sixties at least fifty percent of the alcoholic patients who were treated by Humphrey Osmond and his staff with LSD were essentially cured, after just two sessions, yet such incredible results weren’t created solitarily by the use of LSD, they were created by the user. Even Ibogaine doesn’t help addicts unless they truly wish to stop their abuse. Furthermore, one has to remember that people fear what they don’t understand; hence, people have a tendency to fear the native shamans.
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I meant that shamans are often feared by their own people, in cultural settings where the shaman is a familar figure. Shamans tend to have ambiguous/marginal roles in society, and are often viewed as a "necessary evil" even in cultures where their presence is very well established.
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