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Performance standards light vs dark
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paradigm
IsraTrance Full Member
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1098
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 00:43
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why is it that it seems full on or progressive performers are held to higher standards than dark perfomers?
If a full on live doesnt use abelton and lets his tracks run out on each other, its a bad performance
but if a dark live does it, its creating a mood
If a full on dj doesnt beat match, they get an earful (not to say that this brand of dj doesnt exist)
but most dark dj's do not beat match anyways and its perfectly acceptable
If a full on dj train wrecks, people talk about it. If a dark dj train wrecks "he's making it more psychedelic"
why this discrepensy, its not like one style is harder to play than another
there are of couse exception to every rule but
I can site particular examples as well, but i dont want to turn this topic into one of mud slinging,
but im curious why those most militant about the music are held to lesser standards |
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obu
IsraTrance Junior Member
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403
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 01:20
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Those are great questions, ones I used to think about a lot when I first started djing. Then I realized something, who cares? People really don't care as long as they dance and have a great time (as it should be!), the only ones bickering will be the other djs but they always bicker, so in the end as long as the people (dancers) are having fun and the music is atleast constant (that is to say no dead air) then there really is no problem right? As long as I put out my best whenever I play, who am I to say how x, y, and z should play?
Once you take this whole not caring stance, its so much easier to have fun also 
Good post though, although I don't thinks its a dark vs. light thing as more of a dj vs. dj thing (every dj is viewed in a different light etc. etc.), the respsonses should be interesting.
Hope everyone is having an awesome day 
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DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 14, 2005 01:36
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lol
no matter if it's full-on or dark or even Suomi, go ahead, try and pull that trainwreck thing in Colorado and see how many rotten vegetables get thrown at you before they drag you off the decks kicking and screaming.
I think it's the case in many places dominated by House and techno.
Personally, I really believe in seamless sets. Shoes in a dryer mixing really fucks with my journey.
 ..it's just another party.. |
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mubali
Mubali
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2219
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 02:07
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A trainwreck is a trainwreck is a trainwreck no matter who does it... Those that know and actually care about that will say so. Those that don't won't. If you don't like the music you tend to be more critical of those might make errors. But to be honest who really fucking cares???
In the end the crowd should really be the judge of anything and those that are that anal retentive about what somebody else does with the music they play or make should STFU and play the music themselves. Let your actions speak louder than some bitching. If you don't like a style of music or their performers, make your own.
I have noticed that there is a lot of general intolerance in a scene that is entirely too small to crawl up its own ass. I can understand people wondering why there are double standards, but look at where we live????
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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alienfreaksho:)
IsraTrance Junior Member
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237
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 03:34
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interesting point..and for me it goes into deeper psychoclogical realms..it seems the full on thing has gotten more professional more rockstar..less underground..so more mainstream standards apply...
ive heard music that is flat and not remotely psychedelic but people into that style say but its well produced..sure it is there's not many layers..when you have 20 layers full of atmospheric sounds on top of madness its a lil harder...i need depth and psychedelic in my psychedelic trance..it seems many can call it psy as long as it has a galloping bass and is well produced..give me raw insanity over well produced simplicity any day...this is just a matter of taste..
also the artists we on the "darker" side are into get paid say 500-1000(usually way less) vs the more commerical getting up to $5000 for a set..to me its two differnt genres hard to really compare..its sleeping on a floor of a freak vs a hotel room...
ok so i took it out there...but to me its all connected!~
big peace!~
freaks unite!!!! |
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GhregOnEarth
Phosphene
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30
Posts :
205
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 05:09
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This is a splendid question, Paradigm, with many subtle complexities and nuances based on software, party environment, choice of footwear and whether or not the performer enjoyed the hit TV series from the 80s, Family Ties.
But I will try to keep it simple with this analogy:
Dark Trance = Pabst Blue Ribbon
Progressive = Wine Cooler
Full On = Milk of Magnesia
......I really feel from my analogy here, it's quite obvious....
....that trance live/dj sets are comprised of at least 5% talent. With the other 95% consisting of pure grade triple A jackass-ery
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DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
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70
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Posted : Apr 14, 2005 06:48
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>>>carefully stepping off the hornets' nest>>>
Dark vs. Full-On Part 3 : The Battle of San Francisco.
..peace, man..?
..it's just another party.. |
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BrettFromTibet
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 14, 2005 07:36
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good question...!
I assume that full-on and progressive crowd is distinctly more sensitive (note i said sensitive, not "enlightened") to sound ... They expect harmony within the music itself AND in the delivery of it.
The dark crowd seems willing to take a lot more
roughness and manhandling from the sound system , and tracks themselves. When you're able to enjoy & celebrate harshness and disharmony in the sound fabric... and the track is chock full of screams, scrapes and glitches... then who needs silky mixing? what difference would it make?
----------
Off-topic beverage related coment:
I don't care how the hipsters glorify it, PBR is the worst beer I ever drank... with the possible exception of "He-Man 9000 Lager" (available in Calcutta). |
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mandelbrot
Started Topics :
1
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95
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 08:18
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haha ... sorry but this discussion sometimes gets funny  |
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Cosmos Mariner
Started Topics :
5
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132
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 08:54
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Quote:
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But I will try to keep it simple with this analogy:
Dark Trance = Pabst Blue Ribbon
Progressive = Wine Cooler
Full On = Milk of Magnesia
......I really feel from my analogy here, it's quite obvious....
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PBR!!!!! yes, it does taste like shit Brett, but it's the nostalgia value...
as for trainwrecks, the only dj who IMHO is allowed to do this is the conductor himself - goa gil. give the man a break.
otherwise, if it's wrecked on purpose, is it really trainwrecked? if a bear shits in the woods, does it make a sound?
sound is vibration |
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GhregOnEarth
Phosphene
Started Topics :
30
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205
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 10:09
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ok ok ok.....so I was just being silly there....
...in all seriousness though, I think categories suck and wish people would just stop using them.....though this unlikely.
Each artist or dj should be judged by their own merit. |
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mubali
Mubali
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71
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2219
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 17:55
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Word Ghreg...
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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offthenutboom
IsraTrance Full Member
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55
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Posted : Apr 14, 2005 18:31
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For me personally.
I always expect the highest mixing standard for a DJ. A DJ has to have consistency, creativity and originality. I want DJs to ride those MFn' tracks. If i hear a trainwreck I give the benefit of the doubt. If I hear two I get pissed. If I hear three the DJ needs to go back to his basics and practice a tad more  Because trainwrecks bring you back to this reality faster than light.
Full on is very easy to mix. 2-2:30min minute entry til breakdown, 2-2.30 til exit in the majority of cases. Almost always on bar changes. Sometimes the artists will have a double breakdown @ the end... unsually @ 3:00 to 2:30 minutes and the break again 1:30 minutes. It is systematic and predictable. It is clearly DJ/club music.
This happens with progressive also. Very easy and predictable to mix. I can almost ride tracks from beginning to end... give me a 3rd CDJ please.
If a DJ screws mixing in these two styles, please go back home and keep on practicing.
With dark. Well if it is south african style (timecode, LPS, Nexus)... Most of it is easy to mix and to ride. It has a full on structure. It also applies to most israeli styles of dark. It is not brain surgery.
Now with Kindzadza for eg... He always fucks with us poor DJs brains and breaks off bar 5 times in the last 3 minutes of the tracks. So, as a DJ I have to study his tracks and find a mixing point. Sometime i feel tempted to edit his tracks to make my life easier. THis also applies to parvati, trishula and plenty of SF dark producers... Coming out of Left field is their motto The required levels of concentration to keep the energy of dark trance are very high. Do not mix the mixing point or you are in trouble. Sometimes is a one chance only mix.
So if a dark DJ screws up once.... I blame it on the rain. Twice... please get your concentration right!! Three times...Hello!! Fourth I send him/her back to practice school. This is with trainwrecks.
I have always found the Wah on the CDJ100s a life saver when it comes to surprises in dark trance.
EQing. Full on and progressive have very similar EQing when mixing and blend right where you want them. Easy to mix leads, HHs, and kick-bass combos. IN dark trance to mix kindzadza with Quasar is always a challenge. Kicks are from different planets and basslines are different in volume and textures.
Dark music is always a challenge to mix, and requires preparation and determination to carry the energy through. Full on and proggrassive Is served on a silver platter.
I do not know that much about life performances to give an opinion. I am personally thankful the artists for presenting their music.
BOM! |
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DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
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2299
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 19:47
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Quote:
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On 2005-04-14 07:36, BrettFromTibet wrote:
Off-topic beverage related coment:
I don't care how the hipsters glorify it, PBR is the worst beer I ever drank... with the possible exception of "He-Man 9000 Lager" (available in Calcutta).
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PBR sucks. Though I'll take it over the other two choices any day. And if you drink enough of it, it gets pretty psychedelic. Whether it's from the chemicals or the massive extermination of braincells, I don't know.
And no, there is no reason to trainwreck any style of music. Dark is not all that hard to mix, you just have to do shorter mixes, that's all - as it's meant to be since the stuff is busy enough to lose your head in it. If the track is totally unmixable, like some Vicious Spiral stuff, just do a fade out/fade in mix - nothing wrong with those once in a while.
In general, I don't really care HOW it's mixed as long as the flow is preserved.
..it's just another party.. |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Apr 14, 2005 20:39
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Very astute observation and explanation off the nut... the formatting of more of the full on and progressive is very similar to some of the more dj driven genres of dance music. Psytrance is one of the few genres that has most songs written to be played from start to finish without having that stereotypical kick drum no bassline finish in just about everything else. In a sense (and this is just an observation) many of the genres that are dj driven instead of artist driven the artist write 3-4 minutes of the actual track and about 2-3 minutes of intro/outro beats. You can see some of that rubbing off into psychedelic trance. It doesn't just happen in full-on either. It is something that comes from djs that turn into producers, especially djs that started in other genres.... I am very guilty of doing the same myself. I personally make my music to be mixed, not everybody does that. Who the hell am I to judge them because I do thing differently? There are some producers that expect their stuff to be played from beginning to end to get the full effect of the story they want to tell. That is also why you will find some of their lives are just stringing the intros and outros of tracks together. If the put a lot of emphasis into writing that intro, why not make everyone hear it? Coming from a dj perspective, I always fast forwarded the intros and as thus didn't really put too much emphasis on the intros of my own tracks. Yes that does detract from the home listening possibility of my music, but in the end if I were making music primarily for home listening, I wouldn't be writing the music that I am. Does that mean all artists that write music more toward home listening as well as toward the dancefloor is not that good? No, and if I thought that way, I'd be an egotistical asshole. At the end of the day, you need to sit back and stop taking yourself and this music so seriously. This is music, which is an expression of the human emotion, when you start taking emotions and opinions as gospel... well, you can link that to any social political fopah for the past 2000 years at least...
Think about it, do you like this music for what it is, or what it can do for you??
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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