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No 2 synths were created equal
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ansolas
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 13:32
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frisbeehead
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 14:22
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yeah, zebra definitely has it's sound... I don't enjoy the simple sawtooth to, but with a few adjustments to the waveform, it can sound very good (to my ears) for bass.
but like you say, it's a matter of taste...
Yeah, many times reached the same conclusion by doing the same: sampling waveforms from synths to find out that it's not quite the same without the envelopes and filter.
Only way to go is to sample the exact notes we want for the exact song we want, which is kind of tedious, but if it sounds much better then anything else (which many times it does), then it's worth it...
would like to listen to some simple sawtooth bass patch on that XS if you have the time POM 
that sounds cool ansolas will look at it later (with the oscilloscope and fft that is...) cheers |
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 19:16
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Quote:
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On 2014-11-12 13:32, ansolas wrote:
Have an ear and eye on this waveform:
https://mega.co.nz/#!UkZAwS6D!jH-YQPLJu51-CKtgKBRypQrGXH7snhHjnZ0n39cR6yg
It's RAW Sampled form my JD800.
Interesting is the attack phase it is so punchy due to the slight dc offset and the emphasized attack phase. I haven't found any Soft synth which offers such kind of waveform.
What do you think, how did they created that attack phase? Compressor ? Which Compressor adds this punch dc offset?
Many of the JD800 Waveforms sound so lovely even raw.
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doubt it s compressor, it s like when using retriger phase knob to start at a non zero crossing point on the waveform to me ? if you cut a sample it should do something like this too , or maybe i m missing something? try to cut the waveform one cylcle later at the same place it will do something very similar.
i didn t listen to it but to me these clicks can sometimes make a nasty transient .. it s more noticeable on cans ,sometimes it can click harsh and fatiguing but depending the synths and how it s tweaked it can sound good too but sometimes just starting at a point it dont click and get the desired attack with just the filter modulation and then time align it with track delay in a sweet spot make the attack smoother and better sounding. cause basically what you change with the phase knob is the allignement of the waveform cycle to the kick tail cycle . it s like delaying the track few ms earlier or later but phase retriger change the transients and it seems more to the worst than better to me on bass.. it probably create aliasing or artifacts too.. but many great bass are done this way too..so in the end.. but maybe these would sound even better with no clicks. for my little test with some synths bass attack sounded better with no clicks created by starting the waveform at a non zero crossing point.. and using track delay for time alignement insteed , or some other stuff like allpass filter ect.. that affect timing/phase |
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ansolas
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 19:42
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Quote:
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On 2014-11-12 19:16, PoM wrote:
doubt it s compressor, it s like when using retriger phase knob to start at a non zero crossing point on the waveform to me ?
if you cut a sample it should do something like this too , or maybe i m missing something? try to cut the waveform one cylcle later at the same place it will do something very similar.
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Nope that wont induce a DC Offset, it looks more like the Punch of onl analog Drum machines which induce a D/C Offset.
Have a closer look on the waveform in a audioeditor and zoom into the attack phase.
It has DC Offset and the Attack phase is louder as the sustain.
No harsh click it just sound natural punchy, have a listen.
It reminds me a bit to the Punch parameter of Zeta 2
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 19:46
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it could be created by some components in the synth , or how they did the wavetable dunno no idea ,some saw look strange in some synth ..
maybe compressor u right
but for the starting point it just start at a non zero crossing point and that what make the wavefoms like this to me.. then for amplitude change maybe compressor dunno.. or maybe it s the attack stage of the synth ..no idea |
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 19:58
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Quote:
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On 2014-11-12 14:22, frisbeehead wrote:
would like to listen to some simple sawtooth bass patch on that XS if you have the time POM
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would have to sample it and that why i use plugins..insteed of sampling all notes..hehe diva sound great ..but one day i will lol , xs have 12 lp i tend to like more 18 or 24 for bassline , right now my studio unpluged i would rather sample it running it into some gears but i can sample you a one note dry saw if u want to try it in kontakt or sampler . |
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ansolas
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 20:06
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 20:15
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the amplitude could be a compressor.. as there is the little curve ,but there is no dc offset it s just the waveform that is like this i think, xs saw look quite similar check im gonan record a sample ?? |
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 20:39
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well no i doubt it s a compressor even if it could be.. it just does this to the waveform depending where it start in the cycle
check this https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5107801/G%20Xs%20filter%20drive%20hard%20%2C%20lp%20not%20fully%20open%20%2B%20reso.wav
lol didn t do on pupose i recorded just one note sample.. but it start at similar point than yours..tweaking the envelop i would have the same thing happening i think but there it s full sustain, there is maybe a hold on top of the attack stage in the thing they sampled to create your wavetable, or maybe not.
btw out of this sample you can probably make a good bass in kontakt or wavetable synth , it s a G |
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 21:24
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mmm after this little test i think i m gonna do a kontakt instument sampling 2 octaves..gonna patch analog chain but like this sound already dope in kontakt 5 with a suited filter here , or maybe i hallucinate too much  if some guys try it, tell me if you like it like this or phase inverted..dunno why i always invert the phase on these "inverted saw" .
it s always like this..when i patch the hardware once in while i m blown away and wonder why i was trying hard with the plugs insteed of turning the damn thing on and go on...but maybe it s placebo |
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 12, 2014 22:01
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i checked and i m almost sure it s alaising that come back even in the low mids /low that don t like in some saw..it just make the sound not pure even so down in volume.. could be wrong but i feel this..i check in the xs saw there there is zero unhamronic peaks while the stoft i checked have some even in the low.. crazy how stuff that low volume still afectt or ears.. it s like preringing.
it can feel that it s the part between the harmonics that is too high in volume on some plugs , so the other day i tried to notch between harmonics to try to get that purer feel, that more "airy" sound , less like a mess..clearer ,and it sounded quite good |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 13, 2014 02:23
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All I see is some delay before the waveform starts, then it's definitely a square-like shape, even though it's agitated with a saw-like contour. Then it looks like a sawtooth that's quickly changing to a sine, and that usually means just filter modulation, getting rid of all the harmonics, growing closer to the pure tone of the fundamental - which translates to a sine wave or something close...
The delay could be a number of things, even "midi to audio" delay.
@PoM
some interesting posts there man.
one thing though: when we change the oscillator (initial) phase, we're not doing anything that resembles changing track delay value, for example, we're just offsetting the cycle within the time frame of our gate (the time it plays/stays open), rather then actually moving the notes back and forth.; in digital it just means changing the initial position of the waveform.
it does have an effect on the click and about that, I say:
when going for a more plucky sound that benefits from this click, then I'd pick the position where the waveform produces a more clear and defined transient, even when this means a very loud click on the attack portion of it. it's easy enough to shape it further with EQ, a compressor used to process the note (not the whole phrase, it's very different in my mind), transient shapers and whatever pleases you - if that's something that suits the style of the track.
when going for other kinds of bass, then picking another phase position or even, in some cases, using the soften attack options within the instruments can work wonders as well. or even just pushing the attack on amp's envelope a little up so we don't get the high pitched click as pronounced or, we can use one of those flexible multi stage envelopes and draw a line to shape the volume. this option allows us to achieve something similar to the waveform ansolas's posted here, for example.
another thing, what monitors are you using? always felt like you're either very picky or must have some insanely expensive monitors that are revealing as fuck XD
cheers |
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ansolas
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Posted : Nov 13, 2014 12:15
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ansolas
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Posted : Nov 13, 2014 12:17
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PoM
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Posted : Nov 13, 2014 12:22
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track delay have a similar effect , it change the kick and bassline relation ,so in a way it s pretty similar to adjusting the phase except than the attack stay the same and that the waveform move on the timeline , but i think many use both anyway ... my point is that the click can sound nasty sometimes, and it happen in manytracks but with some sound on top ect it s kinda hidden , if you can get the same transients wihtout the clicks, just with filter modulation it can acutally sound better than a burst with artifacts starting the waves on a non zero crossing point. but anyway it don t matter much it can sound great too.. it s mostly on cans when i listen some tunes or experiment the click can sound fatiguing depending the bass patch , imo best would be to work firts one getting a nice transient, then time align the bassline if needed so it get good realtion with the kick .
i feel sometimes people just use the phase to align well the bassline even if the click is horrible ..well worth checking this on cans too imo |
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