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Mixing in Keys --> Need help from people who do it

full_on
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  278
Posts :  5469
Posted : Aug 18, 2006 21:23
I used the search and found some topics, but not about this issue.

OK, I'm mixing in keys now, actually got some mixing classes with Forza and through experience I found that matching track keys can in many cases greatly increase the smoothness of the mixes.

There's no need to stay on the same key forever, you can change keys by mixing in fifths, changing to the relative minor or major key, or even mixing in fourths. In fact, you have to use your ears to check how good it sounds.

Mixing out of keys sometimes works as well, specially for fast or aggressive mixes, and it may be even interesting to add some dissonance to the Set.

However I got one problem: To mix in keys I actually need to know in which key each track was made. And I want to know that for my whole CD collection... So I need an automated way to do that.

I use two programs to do that: Mixmeister and Mixed in Keys. The problem is that sometimes they disagree with each other...

I developed a program in PERL to check and crossvalidade the results of the "Mixed in Keys" and the "Mixmeister" the output is like this:

Album = VA - Neo:Caine

01 - tristan and prometheus - supernature - 143 - Mixed in Key= Lá -<>- Mixmeister= Ré m
02 - allaby - aurorae - 140 - Mixed in Key= Sol m -<>- Mixmeister= Sol m
04 - jaia - electricity - 140 - Mixed in Key= Fá -<>- Mixmeister= Fá m
05 - pixel and wrecked machines - r.p.n.g.c. silicon sound remix - 145 - Mixed in Key= Dó m -<>- Mixmeister= Fá m
06 - wrecked machines and pixel - tea time - 140 - Mixed in Key= Lá -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
07 - orion - welcome to reality remix - 145 - Mixed in Key= Fá -<>- Mixmeister= Fá m
08 - polaris - 25 - 144 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
09 - tikal - experience - 145 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
10 - altom - viper - 145 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m


Album = VA - Rewired

01 - dj preach - oxygen enhanced - 135 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Mi m
02 - nuclear ramjet - down the wall - 134 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Mi m
03 - three point turn - klush kingdom - 136 - Mixed in Key= Dó -<>- Mixmeister= Dó m
04 - kali - frogz - dismembered - 135 - Mixed in Key= Si m -<>- Mixmeister= Si m
05 - triac - versa - 138 - Mixed in Key= Ré m -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
06 - tao vs metalogic - irrational impulse (4x4 mix) - 138 - Mixed in Key= Lá -<>- Mixmeister= Fá # m
07 - authentik - les 3 machines - 139 - Mixed in Key= Lá -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
08 - spirallianz - bp talk - 142 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Dó # m
09 - tao - pacific intervention - 138 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Sol m
10 - hidra - fixed - 140 - Mixed in Key= Si m -<>- Mixmeister= Mi m
11 - axiomata - new normal (remix) - 140 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
12 - toltech - codigo rojo - 138 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Mi m


Album = Rinkadink - Pirate Signal

01 - rinkadink - pirate signal - 140 - Mixed in Key= Ré -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
02 - rinkadink - metal endo - 145 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Sol # m
03 - rinkadink - basshead - 144 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Sol m
04 - rinkadink - marauder - 144 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Sol # m
05 - rinkadink - wavefront - 145 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Lá m
06 - rinkadink - dads power song - 144 - Mixed in Key= Fá # m -<>- Mixmeister= Fá # m
07 - rinkadink - techmology v3 - 146 - Mixed in Key= Lá m -<>- Mixmeister= Si m
08 - rinkadink - broken collaboration - 145 - Mixed in Key= Fá # -<>- Mixmeister= Fá # m
09 - rinkadink - native american beauty - 145 - Mixed in Key= Ré -<>- Mixmeister= Mi m


I found out that the Mixmeister has a bug and only report minor tunes.

Anyone knows another program that detects track keys or has any hint about mixing in keys?
Thank you.
Respect!
          .
...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
.
...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell...
ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  104
Posts :  1047
Posted : Aug 19, 2006 00:17
When I want to know the key, I just take my guitar and check it out... So if u play any instument, I think this is the fastest way!

          LOADING...
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Aug 19, 2006 00:24
La bemol is the same as sol#

some mistakes , then , are ok.

beside that , some scales use the same notes , so again its not mistake .

for others , use your ears (or tuned guitar/piano/vst) as you say


          www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
full_on
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  278
Posts :  5469
Posted : Aug 19, 2006 03:39
Thank you for your answers.

I know some keys are enharmonic such as La bemol and Sol #, but as you can see I designed the program to never use bemol, using always the equivalent #. I can change it in the blink of an eye, but that's not the point...

I need an automated way to the find track keys, so that I can design a reliable database of track keys.
Respect!           .
...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
.
...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell...
Enertopia
Enertopia

Started Topics :  99
Posts :  677
Posted : Aug 20, 2006 00:35
BEMOL is in hebrew, in english is called flat, just for the people who where wondering what the hell BEMOL is.
Tryambaka
Tryambaka

Started Topics :  6
Posts :  184
Posted : Aug 20, 2006 02:14
hebrew and portuguese

i think that you should consider that many tracks start out in a key and then shift (i do that a lot of times in almost every track).
if the program is searching for a specific key... it just gotta get it wrong hehe

i like to make this kind of mix too, like full_on said, it adds smoothness           http://www.bhooteshwara-records.com
http://www.tryambaka.com
http://www.myspace.com/tryambaka

BHOOTCD003 Tryambaka - The Colour Of Time OUT NOW!!!
full_on
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  278
Posts :  5469
Posted : Aug 20, 2006 06:49
b = flat = bemol
# = sharp = sustenido (at least in portuguese)

There are few tracks that changes the key before it ends. The same way as few tracks change the bpm.

The program Mixed in Key can sometimes (very rare) detect the key changes within a track, so it divides the track in parts and give the key of each part.

I have excellent news: found another software that detects keys automatically! When I get some time I'll implement its results on my program... More news soon!
Respect!           .
...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
.
...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell...
full_on
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  278
Posts :  5469
Posted : Aug 22, 2006 23:54
The new program is called "Rapid Evolution", it is FREE, it is good and it is available here:
http://www.mixshare.com/software.html

I developed another program to compare the results form these key detection programs, used it against some CDs I have and the results are like this:

(format: trackname bpm mixed_in_key Mixmeister Rapid_Evol)

Album = VA - The French Connection

01 - talamasca - roswell mania 144 Sol m Fá m Fá m
02 - altom - kompakt 145 Ré m Ré m Ré m
03 - deedrah - another french man in captown 145 Mi m Mi m Mi m
04 - mael - shandramala 145 Lá # Sol m Sol m
05 - silicon sound - deep eye 2005 144 Lá Lá m Lá m
06 - xsi - overzone 145 Si m Si m Si m
07 - shagma - goblin 144 Ré # m Sol # m Sol # m
08 - sirius isness - dimension 146 Ré # m Sol m Sol m
09 - triptych - playground 145 Fá # m Mi m Mi m

And the statistics:

709 tracks were analysed.
Mixed in Key agree with MixMeister: 277 = 39.07 %
Mixed in Key agree with Rapid Evol: 320 = 45.13 %
MixMeister agree with Rapid Evol: 554 = 78.13 %

All 3 agree: 57 = 8.04 %


Without considering key MODES:
Mixed in Key agree with MixMeister: 470 = 66.29 %
Mixed in Key agree with Rapid Evol: 511 = 72.07 %
MixMeister agree with Rapid Evol: 558 = 78.70 %

All 3 agree (Without consideing key MODE): 71 = 10.01 %

---

I have a strong feeling that the "Rapid Evolution" is one of the most reliable key detection programs around, also it has a lot of useful features that I think everyone involved in mixing in key should check.

Now I need to get some track keys right from the artists, to make a reliable benchmark between these 3 programs, so we can discern which is the best.
If you think you can help, please drop a line.
Respect!
          .
...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
.
...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell...
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Aug 23, 2006 09:19
thank you
and update us!
          www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  39
Posts :  988
Posted : Aug 24, 2006 10:46
Nice to see that there's some software for doing that. It's a pity that i just went through all my cd's to find the track-pitches by ear, using a keyboard On the brighter side, it just took me two afternoons to do hundreds of cd's and after a few cd's you get better at guessing the pitch a track is in, because each pitch has a certain feel. I'll try the software and see if my inner ear is any good.
dtd
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  17
Posts :  490
Posted : Aug 24, 2006 11:47
boobytrip: what when you pitch up/down the new vinyl/cd track to match the playing track in tempo (bpm), the new track won't be in the pitch you wrote down anymore, also, the two tracks are very unlikely to have the same fundamental pitch. what's the use of this procedure anyway, i'm not really sure?

greetings & thanks for explanation
Pavel
Troll

Started Topics :  311
Posts :  8628
Posted : Aug 24, 2006 11:48
Quote:

On 2006-08-20 02:14, Tryambaka wrote:
hebrew and portuguese



And Russian too           Everyone in the world is doing something without me
Alex - Aural Invasion
Aural Invasion

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  514
Posted : Aug 24, 2006 17:08
Quote:

On 2006-08-24 11:47, dtd wrote:
boobytrip: what when you pitch up/down the new vinyl/cd track to match the playing track in tempo (bpm), the new track won't be in the pitch you wrote down anymore, also, the two tracks are very unlikely to have the same fundamental pitch. what's the use of this procedure anyway, i'm not really sure?

greetings & thanks for explanation



Bu there is also this timestretch pitch mode eh? where pitch is not affected?           myspace.com/auralinvasion
reverbnation.com/auralinvasion
www.aural-invasion.com
dtd
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  17
Posts :  490
Posted : Aug 24, 2006 17:48
Quote:

On 2006-08-24 17:08, Alex - Aural Invasion wrote:

Bu there is also this timestretch pitch mode eh? where pitch is not affected?



ah, so the whole thing applies when mixing with audio files/cds (where you can "read ahead" while playing (for the time stretch procedure))? i can't imagine this to be done when mixing vinyl in realtime as timestretching can need information not yet "seen" by the needle (and vinyl is rotated in the tempo it actually plays on the pa, so no "read ahead" is possible).
Alex - Aural Invasion
Aural Invasion

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  514
Posted : Aug 24, 2006 18:23
yes only on cd's           myspace.com/auralinvasion
reverbnation.com/auralinvasion
www.aural-invasion.com
Trance Forum » » Forum  DJing - Mixing in Keys --> Need help from people who do it

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