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LABELS DAMAGED OR NO

aXis
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  116
Posts :  2562
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 04:38
every1 stop writing here . nothing fruitfull comes frm here . Beat it. n do ur own work !
Mystical Moonsun Project
Mystical Moonsun Project

Started Topics :  7
Posts :  44
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 04:47
every1 stop writing here . nothing fruitfull comes frm here . Beat it. n do ur own work !



why u say that any reason adi???
for people not to give there opinion?
          http://www.myspace.com/mysticalmoonsunproject
www.moonsun-records.com
mk47
Inactive User

Started Topics :  118
Posts :  4445
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 07:28
a debt is a debt is a debt .. sob stories and excuses don't work within family fgawd`s sake .. why should it be any different between business partners ..which is basically what an artist and label relationship is .. imo

anyway .. i was almost sure this thread is a preemptive strike fearing a `moonsun records dont pay` 1 .. lol ..

peace
Mystical Moonsun Project
Mystical Moonsun Project

Started Topics :  7
Posts :  44
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 09:15
Bro i never own money dont worry and i never will
cose i least in the 15 years i been in trance i never have done shit or stupid moves that will bring me to that piont, sorry if u feel this way about be if i opened a topic to see why all this mess is going on around the world with labels and artists , i just want opinions in who has more right , and what has to be done ,
nothing more if u like to say crap about me and joke so ure free to do what ever u like ...
          http://www.myspace.com/mysticalmoonsunproject
www.moonsun-records.com
mk47
Inactive User

Started Topics :  118
Posts :  4445
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 09:27
hey sorry .. was just joking , not talking crap about u .. relax .. the thing is .. as a business . nobody in his right mind would think of opening a psytrance label .. there is obviously no money and more often than not u will be making a loss .. so it`s cool if u do it as a hobby .. albeit a serious 1 .. no problem , but don't do it if u don't have the money .. why accumulate others ill will and get a bad name ? .. or something .. take care !
Fria Tantrumm


Started Topics :  5
Posts :  368
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 11:25
If you don't have anything constructive to contribute here, it would be better not to say anything....MMP is asking relevant questions and is facing issues that most new labels face. I don't find anything stupid in what he says...and a little direction from you guys would have been helpfull. First of all the price structure that Tsabeat thinks exists, seems a little skewed.
From my experience firstly most prices work in EUROS and not $$. An artists, and here I am not talking of well established artists who usually ask for alot more money, but even an ameteaur usually asks for 3000 euros just for an album, minimum. Artwork is another Euros 400, Mastering Euros 400-500, promotions, depending on how extravagant you want to be, lets say Euros 800....so all in all, you've spent a minimum of Euros 5000 on a basic album. It does sound very easy to sell 1000 copies, but the reality of the situation is only a few labels manage this...a very small number. In truth I do believe that alot more copies are sold than distributors care to declare, and alot of new labels face this problem. Also, I personally do not organise parties for my own label, because that is not my designation. The label releases music and not every label wants to be involved with organising parties...thats a whole different ball game. The truth of the matter is, not many people buy cds, and even if they did, distribution is not very clear cut. SO MMP, what you are experiencing is usual. The trick is to fight it out, and just make the work better and better.
          **************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT!
Vess


Started Topics :  6
Posts :  367
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 11:26
sounds to me like what comes first ?
-the egg or
-the chicken

maybe the truth is somewhere in between if the piracy wasn't existing           ---
http://vessart.deviantart.com/
www.triplag.com
www.myspace.com/vess_
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 11:55
labels should offer party org. good deals like 1000 cds for 3$ and here is 2000$ profit and 1000 peaple with your cd , and the promoter has great "bonus" for the peaple , where charging over 50eu for entrance it should work. hell with this deal for my album i make the gig for free!

500eu masteirng ?? why , tim shuldt is about 350 eu , and some others that are realy gooood even will do it for 300eu. personly i can offer (no high end equipment) mastering pritty good for just 200eu.. but its still not shiny like peaple with alot of expirience and them high end quality equipments

i forgot the mail costs its true and fucking costs alot...

anywayz fria if you believe distro has been stealing your money you should sue them and have their books open in court , and if you think you pay too much for artists then dont , no one wants you to lose!

well anywayz , im seeing alot of labels doing just fine , selling 800 copies even on first v/a of the label (with hard work!!! saiko sold 400 out of those only!!!)


ok anyhow the point is that a good cd realeses , there is a cake after it , and if we cut it right evryone can have a bite

but its the artist job to create as good music as he can and the label job to sell cds , if thats not understood then there is no game



p.s - who thinks x-dream sells 1000 copies should wake up , i believe they sell 1000 in the first week in japan only. but thats opinion i have no real data about it.          www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
Mystical Moonsun Project
Mystical Moonsun Project

Started Topics :  7
Posts :  44
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 12:02
Tantrumm im sorry if i gave u the impresion my sales are low i mit ebe a new label ,but im surviving
i was pionting out mostly to topics iv seen of large labels owing money to artists so my piont and topic was why
dont make a label if u can aford it,and u know u mite lose ,i also have my own clothes distribuion so that helps me as well. i have many ideas to run mine but why other which have build there name lose it from 1 -2 stupid moves...plus i do my own parties so i think this covers an idea           http://www.myspace.com/mysticalmoonsunproject
www.moonsun-records.com
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 12:12
^^ they owe the artist the money because they are shity peaple , thiefs sometimes.

trust me not all is plur in the world

and also sometimes true they just not sell inough but this shouldnt be connected with their promise to pay XXX$.           www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
Fria Tantrumm


Started Topics :  5
Posts :  368
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 12:38
Thankfully, with much good luck, I manage to do fine with no complaints for distribution personally. I am speaking of the trend that alot of labels face. And I do know that alot of money is lost in distribution, especially for newbie labels who don't have a strong legal department.
Thank you for the mastering offer I will keep it in mind Elad.
I cannot give an educated guess on X Deam sales, but if they do sell 1000 copies in the first week I would have to say it is because they are extremely well established and also that their music, while I wouldn't call it main stream, it is definitely more commercial and appeals to a wider audience. MMP, I speak for the labels who are drowning, and not specifically you I guess it is the natural order of things anyways as recently with such a big label boom, it is obvious that many will find it hard to survive...I guess it follows "Survival of the Fittest". I just hope, that with time, the situation gets better, that everyone with good ideas and creativity reaps the fruits of their hard work. I hope more people respect the music they love and support the artists and labels and BUY the cds. And if every aspect of managing a label is thought out carefully, then to here is no reason why a label shouldn;t survive. Elad is right to say that alot of labels do indeed go beyond their means and try to put out music which has not been compensated for. This is bad karma and it is no wonder then that alot of them sink.           **************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT!
MOONSUN-RECORDS.gr
Moonsun Records

Started Topics :  128
Posts :  1864
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 13:27
quote Fria Tantrumm ...
This is bad karma and it is no wonder then that alot of them sink.


i dont think karma or voodoo will save any 1 but only
if they think possitive and use there brains and think
what they are doing and why , as i said u
1st u must love this idea of a label in all means and reespect ure artists
2.
u cannot open a label if u know that ul own money,
and risk that.
3. give ure best in all even though it will never be enough..

plus 1 goes to artists that respect there music and dont think of it just as money
plus 2 to labels that realy work hard on supporting them....
DETOX
Moderator

Started Topics :  284
Posts :  6194
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 20:05
I didnt want to participate in this one because i did too many times in the past and nothing good came out of it except spending my time on writing big posts that ended up in internet fights.

I will say just one thing concerning the expenses of a label because the majority of people dont have a clue of the full list of expenses when running a label and are not well informed on the exact prices of these expenses.

So here are the costs from my experience from running a label and being in touch with the major labels of the scene.

First of all let me mention that the above prices are in euros since nobody works in dollars for the last 3 years at least,even the israeli people who used to sell tracks for dollars dont even want to hear about dollars anymore and who can blame them.Everybody works in euros around the world and i mean everybody.

A) Mastering : A good mastering costs 300 euros in the market,there are better options for more money but a good mastering is around that price.

B) Artwork : A nice artwork based on the labels preferences also costs around 300 euros from a guy who knows what he is doing and not a friend of a friend who just knows how to use photoshop.

C)After the artwork and mastering are done then someone needs to print those damned cds and i am amazed that just couple of people mentioned this before in this topic,some people seem to think that cds are printed for free or something.Anyway lets say that an average label prints 1000 copies which means around 1000 euros in expense since a jewell case cd costs around 1 euro per unit in small ammounts such as 1000 units.

D)Money Transfers and Post Office Expenses.Many people seem to forget that sending money to other people in other countries cost some money and also in order for a label to send its cds to its distributor (which 90% of the times is based on another country) also costs some money.So if a label sends out of those 1000 cds lets say the 900 to its distributor (since the rest are going to be used for promotion and local distribution purposes) then we are talking about an ammount of money around 200-300 euros depending where the distributor is located.Also if a label has signed 9 tracks in full and out of them 7 are from foreign artists so an international money transfer is required then some money have to be spend too on those international transfers,same applies for the payments of the mastering engineer and the artwork guy,we are talking about 8-9 international money transfers in general,in Greece every transfer costs around 20 euros if you do it through a bank but lately one can use Paypal or other internet money transfers tools that charge something like 4-5% of the total ammount send as a fee (even if those money are taken out of the receivers account which is preety much the same for the sender since he pays extra this ammount).As we will see later on even if we use Paypal then for the track money transfers plus the artwork/mastering transfers we will need something like 200 euros lets say for 8-9 money transfers.So in total we got 200 for the money transfers plus lets say 250 for the post office expenses,a total of 450 euros.

E)Promotion : Promotion is essential if you are hoping to sell your product and not end up with useless cds under your bed.One can use internet banners in sites such as isratrance or saikosounds,pages on magazines such as mushroom or the trancers guide to the galaxy by chaishop,send various promos to various people for free around the world,make some stickers and stuff like that.Lets say we spend around 1000 euros for promotion which is a fair ammount although bigger labels such as Hommega for example or BNE spend obviously much more on this section.

F)Operating Expenses : Some people seem to ignore than in order to run a label you need to have it registered which automatically means having an office as your base and paying every month (or every two months) your social security bills.In Greece whoever runs a record label is considered as running a small personal business which means automatically 300 euros every two months (150 euros a month) for social security plus 150 euros a month for a tiny office which can be used also as a storage room for the cds of the label plus 100 euros a month for an accountant to take care of the logistics of the label and prepare the statements in the end of every year.This means 400 euros a month as operating expenses which times 12 months gives us an ammount of 4800 euros per year which divided by 4 (four stands for the ammount of cds an average label releases per year) this sums up to 1200 euros as operating expenses for each cd released.Noone ever mentions this expense but it is essential for running a label and there is no way to avoid this situation since in order to provide valid invoices to the people who buy your products you need a legal company behind you.I wont even mention here the cost of building and maintaining a website or the monthly cost of internet and telephone bills or (for bigger labels) having people working for you and having a real office that runs everything,lets just stick with those 1200 euros per release.

So far without the music the total expenses of running a label and releasing a single cd add up to 4250 euros.

G)Tracks And Mechanical Rights : I left this main issue last for many reasons.First of all someone mentioned in this topic that a labels spends for its music something around 2000 dollars (not even euros).Excuse me but 2000 dollars divided by 9 lets say tracks that most of the cds have in our days this means something like 220 dollars for each track which translates into 145 euros per track.Excuse me but i dont know any serious artist that is going to sell his music for 145 euros per track,not even 200 euros per track or even 250 euros per track which are ridiculous money.This ammount of money doesnt correspond to reality when we are talking about real artists,it might be enough money to buy tracks from unknown bedroom artists but if you offer this kind of money to artists such as Deedrah,Koxbox,X Dream,Dino Psaras,Astrix,Atmos,Ticon,Vibrasphere,Talamasca,Jaia,Joti,Prometheus,Space Tribe,Electric Universe,Silicon Sound,Wrecked Machines,Protoculture,Bamboo Forest,Tristan,Orion,Logic Bomb,Space Cat,Emok,Ace Ventura or anyone else serious enough then he is probably going to laugh with you and tell you to save your money for someone else.A good track by a middle class artist costs around 400 euros while a track from the big and commercial names goes up to 800-1000 euros.With 150 euros maybe you can buy a track from all those israeli kids producing ten tracks a week copying the patterns of Astrix but i doubt anyone will buy your releases to listen to these guys.What you pay is what you will get and if you pay nothing for music then you obviously will get no good music back not to mention good sales.A good release of nine good tracks costs around 3500-4000 euros including a little bit of everything like 2 very well known names,5 middle class artists and couple of newcomers who deserved to be noticed.Apart from the music though you got to pay for mechanical rights too you know.When you go for printing the factory asks you for a list of your artists and according to that list you see if and how much money you got to spend on mechanical rights,if you release a full album by a registered artist then we are talking about almost one euro per cd cost just for mechanical rights just to give you an idea of the ammounts of money we are talking about.An average compilation from which half the names are registered artists needs 500 euros for mechanical rights.So tracklist along with mechanical rights goes easily up to 4500 euros.

So 4500 euros for the music plus 4250 euros for the rest expenses we end up with 8750 euros for a good proper release which is very difficult to find in our days where everyone creates compilations with unknown names who donated their tracks for free since noone would pay for them anyway.

Distribution buys directly from the label for 6 euros per cd which means 8750 divided by 6 that makes us 1450 copies more or less needed to be sold for a proper release to break even.Oooops didnt we just printed 1000 copies from which we will sell around 900-950 since the rest will go to promotion?Well here is your answer to why many respectable labels closed their doors.

Breaking even on 1500 copies wasnt too much up to some years ago when good labels were selling up to 2500 copies of their compilations (with albums selling even more) but today things are very different.Me i stopped with my label although i was selling up to 1800-2000 copies from my compilations and up to 2500-3000 copies from the Wizzy Noise albums because it really didnt worth all the time,effort and money i spend on the whole thing.Someone who is a dj can earn more from this business but strictly running a label is a total waste of time and money.

You got your real numbers,now lets see what debate you can make over them now and not over some fictious numbers that some people mentioned here.

P.S 1 I wont even mention taxes here because half the artists out there cant present a label with a valid invoice which means the label shows this money to the tax office as pure profit and not expenses for which it gets extra taxation,big story only for the ones running labels.

P.S 2 No digital distribution cant save the situation for physical labels,not yet at least and no not every label manages its artists and gets a percentage from their bookings,only the big ones do that and especially the israeli ones.           Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!!
Mystical Moonsun Project
Mystical Moonsun Project

Started Topics :  7
Posts :  44
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 20:26
i think detox said it all           http://www.myspace.com/mysticalmoonsunproject
www.moonsun-records.com
Login
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  65
Posts :  1704
Posted : Mar 11, 2008 23:29
Quote:

On 2008-03-11 20:05, DETOX wrote:


C)After the artwork and mastering are done then someone needs to print those damned cds and i am amazed that just couple of people mentioned this before in this topic,some people seem to think that cds are printed for free or something.Anyway lets say that an average label prints 1000 copies which means around 1000 euros in expense since a jewell case cd costs around 1 euro per unit in small ammounts such as 1000 units.




I'm pretty impresed by this, 1 euro for one jewel case?????

At least for this I found a solution:

Do it at third world country, do it in China , sure there is somebody waiting to print and pack cd's and then send them to europe.

I know this will involve a lot of problems but in todays global economy is posible, maybe some labels could send to print together some 10 album/comp, accounting for 10,000 cd and share the cost of shipping direct to the shop or distributor.

So following detox figures, physical labels have no salvation, so whats next, only net labels? only digital distribution???

Why so many resistance to only digital distribution???
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