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Israelis in India
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Sep 7, 2005 12:04
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On 2005-09-04 23:55, Vagator Vibhushan wrote:
shahar, i find it surprising that you think it has nothing to do with india's new-found economic prosperity what israelis do or behave-like in India.
In you post you explained why Israelis are so self-centered, and now you are behaving your thougths.
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???
I think you misunderstood me, my friend. Please read again carefully what I wrote.
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How can going to a country have nothing to do with the people, their attitudes and their mentality???
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We were talking about people who disregard the country's people, their attitudes and mentality, therefore I suggested that these people's behaviour is not so much a function of the changes this country (India in this case) is going through as most of them are simply not aware of these.
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Yes, Kerela is goading Goa out of backpacker tourism, but the reason it is doing so is because Goa has learnt from Kerela's example that good fun can be had entertaining rich tourists rather than badly behaved israelis. Why cant u see this simple point? (again, backpacking in India means Israelis since statistically they are the largest bunch)
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I see this simple point, I just don't agree with you that it has much to do with fun- I think it has to do with money, as I wrote. And you'll find the same things happening in all places who cater to cheap backpacking tourism, regardless of Israelis (take Bali or Penang for example, were there are no Israelis, them being in Indonesia & Malesia.
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Are you saying Israelis travelling in US behave the same way they do in India?
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Yes, a lot of them do, even worse.
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Problem is, as I was saying, Indians, thanks to their economic prosperity (India and China have posted a GDP growth of over 8 percent in last 3 yrs; US is in veritable depression; Europe is barely growing), now have choices,
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My friend, Indians, like all of us, always had choises. Connecting choices with money is a western way of thinking. It's not really relevant to the topic, I feel- but since you think it is, you might wanna give it some thought.
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and if Israelis dont behave the way other tourists do, it is only going to cause the good israeli tourists unneccesary harm,
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The harm comes not from behaving like other tourists (who can be just as bad- there's a good book about it by an English author, forgot the name). The harm comes from disregarding/ingnoring/not being aware of Indian people's feelings, thoughts and culture (or to be more general of The Other's feelings, thoughts and culture, whoever this Otheris).
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and you, especially people like you, should be doing more than defending them and saying, hahah, find it funny now, that it has nothign to do with India 
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Guys, I wasn't defending anyone. Was there an attack?
I was just describing in very rough lines a situation (which I don't really like, and unlike most of you, I have to live with day by day) and what I feel are the roots of it.
As I wrote ealier, I suggest you check why you felt that I was defensive here- I think there something to be learnt here.
As for doing something about it- that is a good idea, I even have a plan about it- I need some more time though, maybe next year I'll try to make it reality.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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MellonCollie
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
175
Posted : Sep 7, 2005 12:47
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This debate is one I've been having for ages.
I can't say I applaud what is happening in India primarily because of the influx over the last decade (or 2) of a helluva lot of Israeli people and Europeans, and Aussies, and SA peeps. India is a very very warm country. I mean pick out that many others in a world that manage to blend so many different cultures, religions, languages. Course we fuck up along the way, step on some toes, but look at the UNITY we manage (occasionally)
That and the fact that when you take over a place like has been done in the north, and in Anjuna, the local area and economoy will rapidly become dependent. This is why Indian people are warm. SOme from the goodness of their hearst to new friends, faces, travellers. And some because this is their lvielihoods. They will never say what bothers them or try to rectify anything. Everyone has mouths to feed. That said, it really bothers me when I get to Kasol and all I see is signs in Hebrew. Come on, this is my home...and then if you are a large group of Indians (males) you never even get rooms in hotels.(thank god this rule doesn't apply to me, I would kick some serious ass)
Can't say I blame anyone for that rule, you blokes do get rowdy and sleazy. But no less then (on an average...im not generalizing, but just pointing out) no matter how much you fight it Israeli and Indian men are exactly the same. They sit by the streets of Anjuna, checking out the girls, yelling in Hindi/Hebrew something dodgy. So, what should we do? Ban all men?
But on my travels around India, I did notice...the group that deserves my anger and displeasure are the *pop star* israely backpackers. Duh! There are the Indian 'cool raver' day glow kids as well. You can't fight them. I've met some of my favoruite people in Pulga and they were all from Israel - mostly tel aviv but some from a place I cant remember (ber shiva?? im not good with names). This debate started up....there was a group of about 10-11 Israelis in the guesthouse who would be very clannish, only play Hebrew music, and talk their language. I dont appreciate that attitude but to each their own. If this si the way you are, I dont even want to bother knowing you.
It was only when we got talking to the other 5, that they came up with this word for the others "popstars". The clothes, the talk, the music they said was so typical of the Cool India going kids back home. The day I left, they were asking us not to, because they said it was so refreshing to have non Israely and Non Pop star company.
It was heartening to see someone recognaize the problem, we spent many days stoned and talking and just arguing from Vipassana to the corruption of the Indian police. Most of them played instruments, we would sit around and try play sitar, and all if not religous, still wanting to learn about Indian religions. It was good to be meet, and talk, and learn and teach. This shoudl always be the point of travels. Respect to you guys, and Aviv I hope your second visit back was even better then first. These are people I am still in touch and maybe I go visit in Israel next year. You can never generalize, I realise. You can recognize the kinds of people you may not agree with so stay away.
Just dont act like this is your country because you stay in small villages in the North and live a far more basic life in India then I do in my city. Big deal. You roughed it out ! Its my home, not yours!
This argument is tending to get rather circular and I still can't figure out my stand. It's probably that I love to travel, in India, around the world wherever. And to be welcomed, we have to welcome too. Just please dont be so quick to stay in your clans, and with your people. To travel is t experience, to learn, to see, and I wonder how many have met Indian families, eaten with them, learnt what their lives are like? This is what I try to do when I travel, learn what its really like in a difference culture. I would never travel around the world in a very big group of more then 4 people maybe because you lose out the chance to meet others, and socialize because you have your own circle and are not as needing to meet new faces because yo do!
I'm sure alot have tried to experience India this way, like I said some of my closest friends are bagpackers from Israel and this is what they are like...and thats why maybe we can be such close friends. Make an effort to really see India. Alot of Indians don't either. This goes for a blatantly large group of travellers. The "if we dont stick together, we'll wilt" kinds. Pop stars, day glos, not willing to meet others which gives a very superior attitude.
This is not the attitude I think you can learn by travelling in India, infact I would expect being here would get rid of such behaviour, but it doesnt. Man, you can stay in Israel and listen same Hebrew music, talk your language and eat your food. So , why is it that you are here...Ohhhhh, for the smoke, and the drugs, and the Oh, Yes, my favourite place in india....talk?
Wow. What a vent. I have a question, I heard from friends there are organizations called 'mothers against goa' in Israel and alot of campaigning to count down the number of Israely kids going to India? This true?
Quick postscript. Was just reading thru every post on this...I've been on holiday, ignoring the forum...Sigh. Who just said they went travelling to Greece? I started Uni in England in the fall of last year, and I've made soo many greek and cypriot friends. They are so similar to Indians as well. And the Italians. And the Israelis. I think...new theory...it's every one frm the Hotter climates. WE are all Loud, Easily tend to stick together and talk their own languages. Also on the more conservative side, especially the very pretty (hehehe) girls.tThe Indians here do this an unbelievable amount, to the point it can be rude. So do the greeks. and the Italians. and my French friends. Its like they form instant patriotical links and just gabber away and for all I tell them to stick to language every understands. I guess why I expect higher standards, is because this is precisely something I consciously try to avoid. I dont have only Indian friends, in fact far from it...I'm not home anymore, so why regress. Make the most of the Exposure you have and learn the most about the worl that you can. So I'm sure im not beign a hypocrite when I highlight my issues.
After spending a year with so many different Nationalities, I came to realise that the Israeli people i've met at Uni, nt the ones I meet in India are very very different. So again, it's still a generalization. You're talking about an average of 400,000 and thats a large figure of Israely bagpackers coming to India. Out of 400,000 alot are different from the norm and completely angelic.
So it is a generalization, nonetheless a justifiable one because these are the ones you are coming in contact with, a generalization about the section of Israely's that are in the age group, out of the army mostly, with that mentality. Its probably 8 % of the age group in terms of teh whole nation of Israel. Maybe 10. Thats still a a small small bite size chunk of the population. You forget how narrow a section you see here in India. And there's bad apples everywhere. Cant forget that.
Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
The Darkness, it lies waiting. Dormant but ever ready...to envelope us all. Embrace it or denounce it, one must pick a path. |
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Cosmichowl
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
109
Posted : Sep 7, 2005 17:24
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People's Ego's and their Minds!!
PEACE!
"Bhole Ke Saath Saare Jug Mein Naach"
"Thoughts that come our way are special ways for the subconcious mind to say Hello! get Up!" |
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mrtdeep
Started Topics :
0
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302
Posted : Sep 9, 2005 11:26
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Well i guess this topic will not end in the near future.
peace out guys..............
hope for the best .....................
just my 2 cents
BooooooooooooooooooooM
"Cause we're living in a world of RULES breaking us down when they all should let us be." |
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raver_psycho5
Started Topics :
2
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218
Posted : Sep 9, 2005 23:39
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where is humanity??????????????? |
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Vagator Vibhushan
Inactive User
Started Topics :
40
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444
Posted : Sep 14, 2005 04:06
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wow MellonCollie what an absorbing post! Learnt a lot.
Shahar, your coolness makes me want to kick myself on my butt for appearing rude. What u say is that the Israeli behaviour is inherent, no matter the external influences and that it should change and I am stressing on the intensity of the external influences. No harm in both thoughts since we are products of our own background.
This said, u are in a much better position to suggest constructive corrections than I do. So pls tell us what u think Israelis should change/think when travelling abroad.
Why others left this topic? hard english? pls excuse me since i dont know any better...surely write what u know/can.
Once again sorry for being rude in my last post...
helping apple pies take over the world since Damion predicted so
-psynapse.tribe.net- |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Sep 14, 2005 12:50
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On 2005-09-09 23:39, raver_psycho5 wrote:
where is humanity???????????????
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All around us!
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Sep 14, 2005 12:56
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On 2005-09-14 04:06, Vagator Vibhushan wrote:
Shahar, your coolness makes me want to kick myself on my butt
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Relax mate, this can be dangerous! hehe...
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What u say is that the Israeli behaviour is inherent, no matter the external influences and that it should change
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It is inherent- extrnal influences of course matter- but they're not enough with the kind of people we are talking about. And yes- it should change!
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This said, u are in a much better position to suggest constructive corrections than I do. So pls tell us what u think Israelis should change/think when travelling abroad.
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The same thing they should do when they're here in Israel, and the same thing we all should do wherever we are- Think of the other! Consider him/her, try to understand, try to look at things from his/her perspective, try to feel what he/she feels.
And only then act. Simple, yet seems to be so complicated... not thinking only of ourselves...
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Once again sorry for being rude in my last post...
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You were not that bad man.
MellonCollie- enjoyed reading you post
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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k300
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
127
Posted : Sep 17, 2005 02:56
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sorry for being too tired to read all previos pages...
I do agree with most of Shahar sayings, though i personally believe, after traveling in India for quite a while, that some of the simularities between the two countries mentalities, is also contributing to the issue.
by that i mean that not only israelies speak loadly and act rudly - also indian are often behave this way, I was trying most of my time in india to avoid the israeli season of places, and if i'd see or meet a group of israelies i'd sure try to keep my space from them, then again - not trying to justify or anything - some indians sure know how to shout, touch you, still from you and mislead you.
moreover, since the "open mentality" seems to be very similar many times, i can only assume that israelies do feel a lot like home, which can make them misbehave even worst than ever.
reserches had shown that many of the younger ppl finishing their army service in israel, whish to find "freedom" and therefore are traveling a lot more, I've seen how israelies effect the atmosphere of a place, by arriving to and completly change it, also i've seen groups of other national groups such as korian and japanies do it, but i think you don't mind them as much as you do mind israelies, because of their welth, and not being regular with bargning...
Then again - i would like to join to Shahar on his last lines here - traveling any countries means (4 me) to open your heart and mind to other ppl, respect them as you would like to get respect. i've seen many other ppl (aspecially English, anfurtunatelly) much disrespecting than israelies, but they do it with manners, for me it it's the same, israelies has a frank way of doing things, if they like you it's forever, and if they don't - they won't just say 'thank you' and walk away, they'll let you know about it...
they do have their benefits i believe, traveling india was sure easier than any other country in east asia that i've traveled so far, and not solely but surely it helped...
to sum - I have many good indian friends, and enjoyed your country and calture very much, the debate is important though truely i don't think it could change much... when coming accrose israelies like this you're most welcome to let them know your opinion about them, without judging them for athers actions or prejidices, just as you wouldn't like to be judged for the rest of the indian ppl acts...
MellonCollie - I really enjoyed your post and it reminds me a lot of my travels (most of them by myself), I couldn't agree more...
sab kuch milega - just believe
k. |
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The Green Channel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
41
Posts :
1025
Posted : Sep 18, 2005 05:12
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On 2005-09-17 02:56, k300 wrote:
sorry for being too tired to read all previos pages...
I do agree with most of Shahar sayings, though i personally believe, after traveling in India for quite a while, that some of the simularities between the two countries mentalities, is also contributing to the issue.
by that i mean that not only israelies speak loadly and act rudly - also indian are often behave this way, I was trying most of my time in india to avoid the israeli season of places, and if i'd see or meet a group of israelies i'd sure try to keep my space from them, then again - not trying to justify or anything - some indians sure know how to shout, touch you, still from you and mislead you.
moreover, since the "open mentality" seems to be very similar many times, i can only assume that israelies do feel a lot like home, which can make them misbehave even worst than ever.
reserches had shown that many of the younger ppl finishing their army service in israel, whish to find "freedom" and therefore are traveling a lot more, I've seen how israelies effect the atmosphere of a place, by arriving to and completly change it, also i've seen groups of other national groups such as korian and japanies do it, but i think you don't mind them as much as you do mind israelies, because of their welth, and not being regular with bargning...
Then again - i would like to join to Shahar on his last lines here - traveling any countries means (4 me) to open your heart and mind to other ppl, respect them as you would like to get respect. i've seen many other ppl (aspecially English, anfurtunatelly) much disrespecting than israelies, but they do it with manners, for me it it's the same, israelies has a frank way of doing things, if they like you it's forever, and if they don't - they won't just say 'thank you' and walk away, they'll let you know about it...
they do have their benefits i believe, traveling india was sure easier than any other country in east asia that i've traveled so far, and not solely but surely it helped...
to sum - I have many good indian friends, and enjoyed your country and calture very much, the debate is important though truely i don't think it could change much... when coming accrose israelies like this you're most welcome to let them know your opinion about them, without judging them for athers actions or prejidices, just as you wouldn't like to be judged for the rest of the indian ppl acts...
MellonCollie - I really enjoyed your post and it reminds me a lot of my travels (most of them by myself), I couldn't agree more...
sab kuch milega - just believe
k.
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Interesting...
"Love is a way of life"
(Gaia, Love, Nature, Shamanism (.2A.y.0a.hu.1a.sc.2a.), Terence McKenna) |
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cosmicrain
Started Topics :
9
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56
Posted : Sep 18, 2005 18:33
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...would just like to bring something to the attention of all israelis travelling to pushkar (india)..
things that i observed and so has everyone else has finally been highlighted for the world to see.
recently news channels in india have carried the news about the shocking conduct of israelis in pushkar..
for all those who have been to pushkar indian or non-indian know that it is a very very sacred place.
it is one of the holiest places in the world with a rich melange rituals and sacred and revered traditions..
these news channels have just brought to the fore what we have been observing for quite a while..open masquerading in an indecent manner by israeli couples in temples and ghats of worship..
booming chillums and doin drugs where they are not supposed to be done...
india is a free society and you are free to do what you want but without hurting the local traditions and the sanctity of an immensely religious place as pushkar...
..priests and other worshippers are truly disgusted at this kind of unrelenting display of indecency by israelis..
there is a difference between kasol and pushkar...u must keep that in mind....do whatever in kasol and even if the media highlights it the administration would do nothing coz kasol thrives on it..
but the scenario is not the same with pushkar..as i mentioned before it is one of the most respected and holiset spots on earth.
so pleasse keep the sanctity of puskar an respect the rules and culture there...
for now the issue is in the eyes of the common man..for if the locals get upset..you know wat will happen..
love n peace
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Nathan
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
301
Posts :
3605
Posted : Sep 18, 2005 19:12
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It's all about culture difference. One thing in Israel can be simple and understandable and the same thing in India can be as much as bad as a crime, and not natural.
the couple should have been worn batter.
Its cultures that very far away one from another on the spectrum of life. the host should explain the rules to the gets.
-=The Meaning Of Life Is To Give Life A Meaning= |
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k300
Started Topics :
7
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127
Posted : Sep 19, 2005 20:53
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Cosmicrain - 100% agreed... more over - when I was in Pushkar and around this time last year I met a baba (sadhu) who was raising up the chillum with a group of five Israelies - just by the ghats, I stoped and asked them to move away since this is a very holy place, and perhaps their room should be more comftable...
The baba replied me by saying that the chillum is a secrate thing and ritual, and I only asked him if he doesn't care that other people get anoyed by that...
The other time the religios jewish guys were doing some jewish seramony by the ghats, now I'm not relegios, and yet I don't deny being a Jewish - but I said to them that this is not their place to do such thing, first of all - cause the religion tells us exactly where and how it should be done, and second to that, this is not OUR secrate place - it's holly to Indians and we should respect that as much as Indian people won't have their Puja seramony in the sinagog...
(This time I think they did understand, since they've left the ghats...)
I also agree that the host should, in many cases - explane the rules to the guests, but knowing how Israelies can sometimes play very impationt and even agressively misbehaving - sometime it's better to leave them alone to their on thing, just like I sometimes do with babas...
Love and light
k. |
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MellonCollie
Started Topics :
6
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175
Posted : Sep 26, 2005 20:34
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Hey guys. I'm happy I provided anything to the discussion, but it's always so good to see conversations with consequence or meaning on the forum. I mean if nothing else, the India forums pretty much gone to rubbish, everything is killer this and killer that, though I spotted some stars along the way. Yeh you stars
Is it true about the Mothers against Goa thing in Israel?? i cant remember a name but it was something related to this and mothers who were anti goa cos' their kids never left India, or came back wasted!
Though I've got to agree that Israely people are the same everywhere, and respect for this because you see Indian peeople behave one way in India and then they come to England and they bheave another. Like they;ll litter in India, and never here because you get fined. Small things like this. By far all my Israely friends at Uni reminds me of my friends I met in India and its really the right (normal? ) way to be.
Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
The Darkness, it lies waiting. Dormant but ever ready...to envelope us all. Embrace it or denounce it, one must pick a path. |
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
Posts :
2314
Posted : Sep 28, 2005 04:39
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@melloncollie..
What can i say.. u took the words right outta my mouth.. nice read tho..
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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