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Israelis in India
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shamanizer
Started Topics :
7
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367
Posted : Aug 19, 2005 13:23
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On 2005-08-19 09:10, shahar wrote:
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On 2005-08-18 17:54, shamanizer wrote:
Israelis are loud (as an example try to be without earplugs in a family gathering, especially if there are many people with Yemen origins present:).
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hehehe...
So you're a Finnish guy married to an Israeli Yemenite girl... you're gonna have a rough time with your children, mate 
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Israelis have a different mindset about time compared to many western people. |
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Interesting... Can you elaborate?
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This relates to two things. One is that in Israel people stay awake and move around much longer in the night time than in most of Europe. For example people in Israel go out on Fridays only between 24:00 - 02:00 and in Finland bars are closing at 01:30, nightclubs 03:30.
Another is that when Israelis say they will come somewhere soon the time span varies quite much and Israeli "soon" on many European standards is quite different, especially if you go to central or northern Europe. |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
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1660
Posted : Aug 19, 2005 13:41
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On 2005-08-19 13:23, shamanizer wrote:
This relates to two things. One is that in Israel people stay awake and move around much longer in the night time than in most of Europe. For example people in Israel go out on Fridays only between 24:00 - 02:00 and in Finland bars are closing at 01:30, nightclubs 03:30.
Another is that when Israelis say they will come somewhere soon the time span varies quite much and Israeli "soon" on many European standards is quite different, especially if you go to central or northern Europe.
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Well 'Soon' means 'Today or early tomorrow' no?
 A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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shamanizer
Started Topics :
7
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367
Posted : Aug 19, 2005 15:00
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Well 'Soon' means 'Today or early tomorrow' no?
[/quote]
Its kind of relative, 'soon' in Finland might often mean in about 15-30 minutes. I guess it also depends in what circumstances "soon' is being used and to what issue it relates to.
One more thing that could be added here is that when an Israeli says that s/he will be somewhere at, lets say at two o'clock it usually means 'around two o'clock' and can be even three - four o'clock. In most of Europe it means two o'clock sharp.
Now, it should be noticed that I speak with Scandinavian mind set, which is very different compared to southern European mindset. |
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
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2314
Posted : Aug 19, 2005 15:24
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@shamanizer
Its the same case in India as well. People start the night off usually around Midnite -1:00 a.m.
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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Vagator Vibhushan
Inactive User
Started Topics :
40
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444
Posted : Aug 25, 2005 04:19
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Hey Shahar, spoken like a true indophile!
I am travelling and these french keyboards take a while getting used to so please pardon, well, my french.
What u have written here might well be the most comprehensive eulogy to bad behaviiour of your countrymen, though ofcourse i know u mean it all in very good spirit. For sure, it is easier for me and many like me to understand what is going on behind the surface (though yes, as you said, speaking about something as complex as this is much better suited to a meeting rather than impersonal writing), but i also get a feeling you are condoning something by explaining it off.
I see you fairly and thanks much for the insight, and now urge you to see things from Indians perspective (some things sound strong but i feel safe taking jabs at sentient people like you coz i know u will look at it the right way).
I have hinted at this before but let me now risk making an outright prophecy. I am no saint hence my only claim to this foreboding is knowledge of whats going on, curious nature and attachment to news and media. From this I gather that if behviours dont undergo a radical paradigm shift, the Israelis in India issue is about to get nasty, and here are a few reasons why -
Unlike before; and as you also alluded to, people in some parts of india have been depending on israeli tourism for a while now, though with recent economic oveturns, things aint the same as before, and those very same people now have a choice. Let me put you some simple statistical examples - Goa, its government and people, including ones in the northern "party zone" belt, are consciously moving away from 'backpackism' since they believe that - as is with many destinations world over which suddenly want more buck for their bang, er, efforts - a better deal can be had luring the package holidayers, in other words, short stayers and big spenders. If you went to Goa last two seasons (also check XPs Goa post in the trance section) you know this already. The patience, and bonhomie, is dying out, and fast.
Take neighbouring state, Kerala, for another example. That state, being just off the border of Goa, and as tourism friendly, could easily have poached on Goa beach party mania with its own pristne beachscapes. But no, it also dont want less money more noise people. Infact so much so that it has even announced itself no-alcohol. Can you imagine how much their aversion to Goa kind of tourism must be that while being next to a tax-free alcohol state, it announces itself teetotal? Sadly ofcouse, this is also another reason - Kerela is booming with high-profile, massage and backwater ride tourism - why Goans have now decided to follow suit.
The situation is further compounded by the fact, as we have already figured out, that among backpackers israelis are the biggest lot and hence, though sometimes unfairly, the blame has to be shouldered by them, as if no one else was doing any wrong. The thing is, most trouble-makers, atleast officially, are themselves Israelis or claim to be associated with them. It has reached a point when cartels are so strong that police themselves hesitate to take action, which, as you would well appreciate, then becomes fodder for the media to splash all about. This worsens the case for all Israelis in India. I agree that categorisation of people, any people, as having one trait or another is an absolute evil, but then thats a reality and running away from it or distancing youself from it is far worse than addressing it and trying to find meaningful ways to combat it, since; once the image forms, over years, it takes far far more years and efforts to dissolve it.
Take Leh in Laddakh for another instance. I went there a coupla months ago and was aghast to find that the israeli invasion had taken place there too, at such a pristine, inaccesible place. Same thing, food menus in israeli, ads outside hotels in israelis and all that jazz. Then I thought, emancipation will reach this land soon too, when people will have enough economic power to make their choices and then what, where will the bad mannered people go? Invade another land? Go deeper into regions which no one else has interest in? Find more tourism spots for the big-money holidayers to snatch from them in due course? Or will they abandon India for another country which provides them the benfits? To what possible climax is this story headed.
I know all this sounds a bit harsh and sort of a rebuke, but check this another very alarming fact. While you may brush off a general India's aversion to israelis as mutual love, or lack of it, how would you explain it when it comes from other Indian party goers? If it was about the spirit of PLUR, then surely atleast the Indian people who beleive in the same style of life should be standing with them, but no, they too now have choices. Hence, they dont feel so good anymore being excluded from parties or priviledges in their own land, or being mistreated or being made to feel lowly.
Personally, I think the problem is that the infobase in Israel and its party people about India has not changed over the years, or atleast not enough to reflect its true reality as of now. This results in israelis landing in india knowing very little, but more disastrously, knowing information which is quite outdated now, and start behaving like Tzars in some ancient mystical land. It is thus the duty of people like you who love india and keep constant touch with it, to update them with this new and changed country, where you now travel just as you do in an educated, seemingly well-off nation. Yes ofcourse, there are still the beggars and the pesteres and people who con you and want your money, but you have them in every country, just that India is 1.1 billion people so there is an unimaginable more of each kind.
Now the funny part is, israelis in israel are a very cultured and well-behaved lot, so I am sure they can be that wherever they go, even the just out of army lads and girls, as long as people like you take some degree of responsibility for the change and do something concrete about it - that, i guess, would be the true measure of your love for India, and in the same stead, for your countrymen coming here.
This is all my personal point of view ofcourse and feel free to disagree or call me mad, which would atleast mean you've read this far and thanks for that 
helping apple pies take over the world since Damion predicted so
-psynapse.tribe.net- |
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Cosmichowl
Started Topics :
1
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109
Posted : Aug 25, 2005 22:45
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EVERY DAY I COME HERE AND I LEARN SOMETHING MORE ABOUT OUR PEOPLE!
"Bhole Ke Saath Saare Jug Mein Naach"
"Thoughts that come our way are special ways for the subconcious mind to say Hello! get Up!" |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
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2035
Posted : Aug 28, 2005 14:18
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On 2005-08-25 04:19, Vagator Vibhushan wrote:
What u have written here might well be the most comprehensive eulogy to bad behaviiour of your countrymen, though ofcourse i know u mean it all in very good spirit.
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No euglogy, just an explanation. Any attempt at change gotta start in understanding the thing you wanna change. My want for change is my motivation for thinking deep into things.
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but i also get a feeling you are condoning something by explaining it off.
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I don't condone it, and I don't explain it off. I just explain.
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Take neighbouring state, Kerala, for another example. That state, being just off the border of Goa, and as tourism friendly, could easily have poached on Goa beach party mania with its own pristne beachscapes. But no, it also dont want less money more noise people. Infact so much so that it has even announced itself no-alcohol. Can you imagine how much their aversion to Goa kind of tourism must be that while being next to a tax-free alcohol state, it announces itself teetotal? Sadly ofcouse, this is also another reason - Kerela is booming with high-profile, massage and backwater ride tourism - why Goans have now decided to follow suit.
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I've been going to Kerala now for 8 years regualary- my observation is that Kerala has turned to rich tourism not because it doesn't want Israelis, but because it wants money. Backpackers are worth less than seasonal charter tourism. This is probably also the reason Goa turned to rich tourism. The world is becoming smaller, India becomes more modern (i.e., western) and more accessible and money buys everything. I don't think it has anything to do with the subject. You mix two different things together, as with your example about Leh. Yes, ppl will go to search for faraway, cheap unaccessible heavens that will be made more accessible and change to accomodate them and more and more people will find out about them and they will end up with the big money people- this has been happening all over the world for 40 years now- since backpacking started- these are the dynamics of tourism and has nothing to do with Israeli behaviour in particular.
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The situation is further compounded by the fact, as we have already figured out, that among backpackers israelis are the biggest lot and hence, though sometimes unfairly, the blame has to be shouldered by them, as if no one else was doing any wrong. The thing is, most trouble-makers, atleast officially, are themselves Israelis or claim to be associated with them. It has reached a point when cartels are so strong that police themselves hesitate to take action, which, as you would well appreciate, then becomes fodder for the media to splash all about. This worsens the case for all Israelis in India.
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Indeed. And not only in India.
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Personally, I think the problem is that the infobase in Israel and its party people about India has not changed over the years, or atleast not enough to reflect its true reality as of now. This results in israelis landing in india knowing very little, but more disastrously, knowing information which is quite outdated now, and start behaving like Tzars in some ancient mystical land. It is thus the duty of people like you who love india and keep constant touch with it, to update them with this new and changed country, where you now travel just as you do in an educated, seemingly well-off nation. Yes ofcourse, there are still the beggars and the pesteres and people who con you and want your money, but you have them in every country, just that India is 1.1 billion people so there is an unimaginable more of each kind.
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I think the changes that are going over India, for better or worse, are irrelevant to this problem. People who are unaware of the culure around them will be unaware of it, no matter where it's heading.
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Now the funny part is, israelis in israel are a very cultured and well-behaved lot,
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Are they?
You sure?
Where?
I think you confused it with another place... Israelis are Israelis everywhere, and here it is worse because we're the majority... and in Goa you get only the young stoned ones... imagine it here with grumpy taxi drivers, beaurocrats, bankers, politicians, everything- all Israelis!
Not easy mate, not easy at all...
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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exotic
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
200
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5057
Posted : Aug 28, 2005 20:54
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at one party in manali, we guys forgot our camera back in the hotel. me and my friends met a wonderful lady from israel who took our snaps and even remembered to send it to one of us via mail... and what lovely snaps that too .,, and at the same party i met some really rude people from italy who refused to share a chillum with us even when we offered them some maal ..,, so you meet all kind of people everywhere.. no generalisations for me
missing plug-in |
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mrtdeep
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0
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302
Posted : Aug 30, 2005 13:08
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@Vagator Vibhushan
A very nice and clear explanation,learnt a lot .
@ shahar
good justification mate you otto be a lawyer. |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
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2035
Posted : Aug 30, 2005 17:25
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On 2005-08-30 13:08, mrtdeep wrote:
@ shahar
good justification mate you otto be a lawyer.
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I wasn't justifying anything. The kind of behavior that Samrat described is something I loath and do my best to change and stay away from.
All I was doing was trying to show the roots of this behaviour. It made you more sympathethic to it and that made you think I was justifying it.
There is an important lesson to learn here, maybe...
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
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1660
Posted : Aug 30, 2005 18:03
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On 2005-08-30 17:25, shahar wrote:
There is an important lesson to learn here, maybe...
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What that even a disgusting , loud , unpleasant and arrogant human being can have good reasons for being so? So everyone should take a Mahatma Ghandi way and tolerate it ? Comon Shahar - I dont see personally no lesson here, surely not important. Ppl should know how to behave themselves period. Many other societies know how to do that ( altho there are disgusting, loud, unpleasant and arrogant ppl in every nation ) but in our country it seems as a plague. In every place u just get stumbling into these characters.
No sympathy from here at all to these types.. I prefer to give my sympathy to nice ppl
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Aug 30, 2005 20:19
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If a Danish person or group of people from Denmark behave in a way that's degrading, discriminating or straight out rude then I would never defend them or even try to explain why they behave as they do. And believe me Danish people can be very loud and annoying too.
I got to agree with Yuli here. I do not understand the need to to explain why people no matter where they come from act as they do. They are loud, obnoxious and plain rude. Nothing more nothing less. |
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mrtdeep
Started Topics :
0
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302
Posted : Aug 31, 2005 16:31
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On 2005-08-30 18:03, Yuli wrote:
No sympathy from here at all to these types.. I prefer to give my sympathy to nice ppl
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very true..............
"Cause we're living in a world of RULES breaking us down when they all should let us be." |
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mrtdeep
Started Topics :
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302
Posted : Aug 31, 2005 16:41
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On 2005-08-30 17:25, shahar wrote:
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On 2005-08-30 13:08, mrtdeep wrote:
@ shahar
good justification mate you otto be a lawyer.
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There is an important lesson to learn here, maybe...
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maybe there is a leasson to be learnt,but most importantly and everything else apart is for people to learn to respect the place and the culture they are visiting.........
btw i understand that you are trying to educate us about your culture,however that culture doesnot teach or doesnot embed that you disrespect other culture or F*** around when you go to other countries.... rite..............
"Cause we're living in a world of RULES breaking us down when they all should let us be." |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
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2035
Posted : Aug 31, 2005 16:51
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On 2005-08-30 18:03, Yuli wrote:
What that even a disgusting , loud , unpleasant and arrogant human being can have good reasons for being so?
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No. That once you make an effort to understand people/a culture you can identify with/understand them/it more and then there's a better chance you would not disrespect it. I was trying to point out the importance of trying to understand the other in any meeting between human beings, individuals or communities.
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I prefer to give my sympathy to nice ppl
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I prefer to have more nice ppl.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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