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Israelis in India
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Ppsygirl
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
21
Posts :
247
Posted : Aug 5, 2005 13:50
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there is no such thing as a german nazi flag - there is a german flag wich is a symbol of their country and there is nothing nazi about it ,and there is a nazi cross . wich could be a flag too.
  Follow the Rainbow to....... |
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Cyber Punk
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
29
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759
Posted : Aug 5, 2005 14:56
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Its just his IQ is sooooooo high, that he can't see over it...
-=Lead System Designer=- |
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Cosmichowl
Started Topics :
1
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109
Posted : Aug 5, 2005 21:03
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Greetings!!! 
Was just breezing through and saw all the commotion about attitudes and stuff Flying about the house!!!! 
Firstly to ALL PLUR 
I have come across some Israelis that were good  and some that were Bad!!! 
I think that this world is made up of all kinds of people and to be able to find the Balance is what life is all about!!! 
The ego has to be tamed in each one of us! 
"its the Ego that changes a Man in to a Devil and Humility that changes a Man into an angel" So for all of the Family on either side Lets just live as one! 
So lets Party on with Love in our  hearts!   and I thank all the people responsible for creating Psymusik!
Lets Trance and not try to Dance!
Boom-lip-tic !!!!
"Bhole Ke Saath Saare Jug Mein Naach"
"Thoughts that come our way are special ways for the subconcious mind to say Hello! get Up!" |
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
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2314
Posted : Aug 6, 2005 21:08
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Hi all..
Some valid points and some tota bullshit floating about in this thread.
Firstly, i think its great that Vagator Vibhushan started this thread.
Secondly, every nation no matter what color, race or creed has its share of crappy people. Forget about it!!!
I know for a fact in India that situations can vary greatly among tourists and locals. I'm positive that out of 10 Israeli visitors 9 were treated fairly and welcomed. Is nt that great ratio 9/10 ?
At the same time 9/10 israelis probably treat the locals and others with respect, but there's that 1 whose a totally asshole. What to do?
Get violent? Bitch? Curse the country and teh race? or Grow up and live with it.!!
I am damn interested in visiting Israel soon. And i think i'll be treated fabulously 9/10.
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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Mushi
Started Topics :
9
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80
Posted : Aug 9, 2005 16:55
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some of the psy fans r just bunch of kids
who r just trippin on anything
they r not real hippies
thats the difference between the 60s hippies and ur new genre psy heads who r tryıng to be the 21 century hippies with all respect they suck lol
the roots and the belief is an important thing and nowadays most of the people r copy cats I dress lıke a hippıe but Im not grow up kids
maybe because of the D lol r they on junk or wat lol
weed never makes u aggressive and acid is for a unıversal experience not to attend a trance party
to fınd ur self wıth thıs unıverse and find the light |
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Bloodclot
Bloodclot
Started Topics :
93
Posts :
2190
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 06:26
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-04 15:16, oran(m.p) wrote:
just a little question:
what's the connection between this thread and psytrance music?
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So I guess ur ok with people trying to bumb around at parties and passing lewd racist comments huh?
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
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2035
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 17:03
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Hey Samrat,
Aap kaise hein?
Couldn't get hold of you in Delhi before I left last summer- we could have had this discussion then- and this is indeed a better subject to talk about face to face as it is very complex.
Still, I will write some of my thoughts about it here, and as an Israeli who studies Indian Culture and have been to India quite a lot, and have been thinking about all this a lot, I think I can say some useful things.
First and foremost, I must say that we should remember that we are generalizing here- people are individuals and that's how we should treat them when we meet them face to face- with a clean open mind. However, people are also part of social groups- their nation being one of them- and have as part of their character and identity social characteristics, and that's what we are talking about here. This distinction is very very important, and please apply it to all I say (and I'll be happy if you apply it to all you think, when you think about someone as part of a group).
OK here we go....
Israeli culture:
This is my starting point and it is a very complicated thing- so just a few insights and points to think about.
Israel is a young country of an old people. It is an impossible mix of immigrants from all over the world, and I mean ALL OVER- Europe, Asia, Africa, America- we have everything here, almost every country in the world is represented. There's also a big minority group of Israeli Palestinians, and a growing community of (mostly illegal) foreign workers from 3rd world countries- but they don't usually go to India, so I'll leave them out of this. All these people bring with them different cultures and codes of behavior and have been doing it for more than 100 years. To even try and analyze something like this is ridiculous. Now throw all that mess into a steaming non-stop 100 years old escalating violent Arab-Israeli conflict, in a country that was in a constant-everyday-felt threat of being swept by its enemies for its first 25 years of existence, surrounded by enemies with no overland connection to other cultures, add a history of 2000 years of prosecution, including the Holocaust, and a country that was born in order to shake off and offer an antithesis to these 2000 years and you can try and get a preliminary understanding of how Israeli mentality is a complex one. Also you need to know that Israel has moved in less then 60 years from being a very strongly communal country to being a totally individualistic society, maybe the most individualistic in the world today. A mess, as I said.
From this mess I will extract a few characteristics that are relevant for the discussion:
- Israelis are very straightforward people- this is our culture- it makes us very open and warm and easy to connect with, it also makes us, comparing to a lot of other cultures in the world (most of them, probably) that are more reserve and close, plain rude and loud. But I've heard that said also about Italians, Greeks, Turks & Arabs- it's probably a Mediterranean thing 
- Israelis stick together and help each other- you can understand a little why from what I've written above. Again this has good and bad aspects. I will never forget one time on the way from Leh to Manali by bus in horrible monsoon weather when the road got swept away and about a 100 of us (tourists mostly from all over the world) had to walk on foot in non-stop crazy rain having to cross swamps and rivers that appeared suddenly from nowhere. A bunch of Israeli ppl, including myself, spent a few hours helping everyone cross after one of us ran over and found out that there were a few trucks waiting 5 km ahead and told them to wait for all of us (and came back to help). We helped everyone and then carried two girls that couldn't walk, till we got to where the buses were, and found out that everyone else left and we were left there alone. Thank god for the local magistrate who helped us. This just wouldn't happen the other way around. On the other hand, sticking together is a lot of times leaving everyone else out- especially when it is so much easier to speak your own language which no one else understands- and everyone who's been with a group of Israelis knows what I'm talking about.
- In Israel it's OK to cheat a little, especially if you're cheating the system- this is a norm that sprang historically from the need to survive in tough conditions. In the time of the British mandate and the anti-British independence movement, this ability was considered a very good one, and it has also won Israet's independence war with 500,000 Jews against armies representing 200,000,000 Arab enemies. It is a big part of the Israeli ethos- is still survives very much in the army- which most Israelis spend a minimum of 2-3 years in when they're 18. We Israelis call this "combina" (and India, btw, has some of this mentality as well- has to do with centuries of fighthing beaurocracy, I think). It is something which the Israeli society pays for a lot, but the biggest problem is that Israelis don't realize that what is viewed as OK here, is pure theft and totally not OK in most other places.
- Israel is a very self-centered country, and Israelis are very self-centered- this has religious and historic roots, and it is also part of the growing Americanization and extreme individualization that the country is going through in the last 3 decades, which I mentioned before. When you are self centered culturally- even if not in everyday life as a person- you tend not to be aware of different people and cultures around you, and project your own values and beliefs on them- take note that this in many cases totally subconscious thing, and many people will feel quite bad about it once they are made aware of it.
- Israelis are great! Or so they are told all the time- we're not supposed to be afraid, we're not supposed not to know what to do, we're not supposed to be wrong, we're not supposed to be weak, etc. etc.- you get the point... you can also understand where it comes from, after you read what I explained above- Israel was born so Jews won't have to be afraid and persecuted ever again- that's the basic idea behind this country. And Israeli guys are also of course big hero machos! Me being a sensitive and thinking guy, I never got the blond chicks travelling with me- they always go with my loud stupid countrymen with long hair loud voice and big chillums, preferably on Enfield motorcycles
I think that's enough for this part.
Travelling Israelis:
You know, I've been once to a village in Kulu valley and had a nice conversation with a nice local farmer- he just couldn't understand how I had the nerve to tell him that Israel is not the third biggest country in the world after America and Russia. And I encountered that in many places- people who are not knowledgeable in Geography just can't believe that Israel has a population of only 6 million people.
The point is- A LOT of Israelis travel A LOT! Anybody who traveled here- just think- how many Israelis have you met comparing to other nationalities? Very few countries get close to that number, and then we're talking about countries with 10 or more times the population. Why is that so? Again, a complex thing- but few points- until the 80s travelling out of Israel was not an option for the majority of Israelis- financially and politically- Israel was quite poor then and most third world countries were not open for Israelis. Now imagine how a nation feels when it lives in a very small country (look at the maps, ppl) that you can't leave overland and in most cases not in any other way. Remember also how stress life in this very small country is, especially it being a very close communal place. And do not forget the compulsory army service (2 years for girls, 3 for boys, one month every year of reserve till your 50...) where you spend your life wearing ugly colored cloths and having stupid people telling you what to do with every second of your life (in the good scenario, the bad scenarios you can imagine yourself, wars and all, and Yuli's message is also a good place to start in...). All this in the age where most of the other people in the other areas of the first world develop themselves and check the borders of their freedom. So when people do get the chance to get out of this- they fly like a cork out of Champagne bottle that was shaken very hard for a few hours... And since they're young people without too much money they either fly to richer countries to work and make some money or to 3rd world countries where things are cheap or to both. And India is a favorite place.
India:
Now a few short words about India for those who don't know it, or for those who live there and don't know how it is for outsiders, especially coming from the west.
India is an ancient civilization, and one very different in its basic view of life from the west. Most people who have very basic experience with both Indian & western cultures might not realize how big the difference is. India works differently- everything is different- the way to cross the street, the food, the driving, the shopping, the moving around, everyday living, religion, philosophy- you name it- everything. On top of that India has inside it almost endless diversity- it is a culture that encompass thousands of years on thousands miles with billions of people believing in thousand different things and speaking in hundreds of different languages. Probably the only good thing written in India's lonely plant book is the sentence about India being a constant simultaneous assault on all senses, this is exactly what it is for someone coming from outside- especially if they arrive in the Main Bazaar in Pahar Ganj or in Kollaba.
Travellers in India:
Now what happens when someone arrives in India from the west for the first time? Especially someone young and unexposed to different cultures and ways of thinking... What happens when all your senses are assaulted simultaneously like that? What happens when nothing works like it is supposed to? When no one understands you? When everyone just wants your money? When you don't understand shit of what is going on around you?
I'll tell you what happens- you are afraid- and when people are afraid they do two things- they shut down and they attack. So suddenly all Indians are stupid, end everyone who start talking to you wants your money, and nothing works properly in India, etc. etc.
That is of course totally untrue- India has the same percentage of stupid people as everywhere else in the world, most Indians don't give a shit about your money and are much more interested to talk to you and know about you, including most of those who live of tourism (just make the effort), and everything works exactly as it is supposed to do in India- the Indian way, of course. The greatest reward in travelling is being able to decipher the way things work to some extent, the feeling that suddenly you can get by no matter how different things are, that you can get through to people and see how like yourself they are. This is especially great in India as it is so very different then the west. I myself got addicted to this feeling, especially in India, and after a lot of visits, studying a lot about India and learning the language a little, can tell you things are working for me pretty good in India- sometimes much better than in Israel
Israelis in India:
OK- now take what I wrote up to here and think about it a little and you can understand Israelis in India pretty well.
Most Israelis you feel in India (I'll talk about the rest soon) are young people out of the army flying out of their pressuring bottle and landing in India- which is for them is the land of freedom- everything is cheap, nobody tells them what to do, suddenly it seems there are no rules, and they can do what they want. This is the greatest feeling in the world- believe me! Especially in Goa
This of course is not true- there are rules- Indian rules- but they don't understands them, and being more self-centered by nature it is hard for them to see them. They are afraid (which they can't really be, remember), so they shut down and they attack- the outcome is that they can be pretty rude to Indians around them, that is to top them being loud and straightforward to begin with. They also stick together (as they are supposed to do, remember), and travel around in big groups (which they can do, as there are a lot of them travelling around). In this way they solve the problem of different undecipherable rules for themselves- they create their own rules- they import them to India (or other places)- because there are enough of them and they have enough purchasing power to create small Israeli-friendly environment that cater to their needs. Locals are supplying these environments because they make money out of them- that does not mean they like them and are happy with them, as they are alien to them and are opposing their own values a lot of the time (yet you'll everywhere there are always people happy to make money on the expense of their own beliefs of course...).
Again, It is very important to realize 99 percent of these people have no intentions of doing harm, they mean good and just want to enjoy India. But because they are blind to what is going on around them- they offend a lot of people and do cause harm. That is sad.
Must be said though, that with all that, Israelis are also very much loved in India- we are closer to India's mind than Europeans- we are from Asia after all- we connect on a lot of good ways and we share quite a few views on things. Start with the language- I speak English with no accent- you'll never think I'm from Israel- but when I speak to Indians- I speak with heavy Hebrew accent- they understand me much better this way. And it's many other things as well. Israelis are warm and open minded, they are very friendly and connect well with local people and there are many friendships born and many letters, packages and emails are doing their way daily between India and Israel.
Now, I must say a word about the rest of the Israelis travelling in India- the ones that are not so much felt, but that still constitute quite a big percentage of Israelis travelling in India (and the rest of the world). These are people who a lot of times also just came out of the army, but landing in a different culture find fascination in it (and that happens a lot for Israelis with India- why is a totally different, though not less interesting, topic) and do their best to explore and connect to it. Then they drift away from the little Israels concentrated in Goa, Manali, Hare Rama guest house, etc. They go searching and travelling- they discover a lot of what India has to offer (which is a lot), they discover what a lot of other travellers from other countries have to offer, they discover a lot about themselves- and in the end this is what travelling is all about. Most of them are infected with the travelling bug, the bug of getting to know different perspectives of looking at the world, and keep going back. They a lot of times infect friends, neighbors and family and send them to India as well to search the wonder that is India. From my experience these are some of the best people to travel and spend time with and I highly recommend that, because Israelis are also great people with a lot of good qualities- they are friendly, warm, helping, funny, energetic and also....
nobody parties like us 
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 00:20
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@ Shahar.
u write well, i was fascinated with ur explanation.
Now lets see..
1. Being Loud and rude and being straightfwd are totally different. there's no excuse for being rude period. There might be explanations as to why etc.. but lets summarize by agreeing that being 'rude' is unacceptable anywhere.
2. I have given many Israelis a ride or chilled with them when i was in kerala, and i was astounded by their confidence. Sometimes this 'toughness' can come across as aggressiveness, but hey, i'd rather be confident that discouraged. And thats great when ur in an alien world.
3. Unspoken rules are hard to figure out, especially if ur just a visitor. Like never handing money over to the cabbie with ur left hand, or blowing ur nose in public, or snappin ur fingers at a waiter. Maybe here a smile wud do the trick. Just smile and smile and smile. Raising ur voice because u feel cornered or scared might not be very helpful, especially if ur in Bombay or somethn.
I have had maybe one or two bad experiences with an Israeli, which is miniscule compared to the number of them i've met and socialized with. Suprisingly, both were with women!!!. Well what to do?
As i said before i think i need to make a trip to israel and check it out.
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
312
Posts :
8646
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 00:48
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Nice reading Shahar. I guess i am convinced now
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Madpup
IsraTrance Junior Member
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21
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174
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 01:56
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Shahar..a really facinating insight. However, a lot of the positive qualities of Israelis that you mentioned in your post...well...they dont really seem to come across very well to others (talking about Israelis on their travels) and indeed in many cases a totally opposite impression results. It is very hard to see the warm, friendly, warm and helping side of someone when rudeness is the first impression created, that impression is very powerful.
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Karma Konnect
Karma Konnect
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
579
Posted : Aug 15, 2005 20:29
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Quote:
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On 2005-07-14 17:55, Cyber Punk wrote:
There is also one more thing to take into concederation. I think that Israelis, relatively, are the biggest tourist group in India. So, in general, ppl from other countries go to India because of spirituality, relegion, travels.. etc.. And a lot of Israelis are going to India because it is .... "cool"...
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shamanizer
Started Topics :
7
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367
Posted : Aug 18, 2005 17:54
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Couldn't resist to write some points since in my opinion I have a rather good insight to Israeli culture and mindset. To proof that I can tell that I lived in Israel for 3 years, I've been with Israeli girl for nearly 8 years, I have many good Israeli friends and last, but not least, I've worked with many Israelis (gives you another insight to the mindset).
All following is stereotyping and not to be taken personally by any individual who feels uncomfortable with it:
In my experience Israelis are very sensitive people, if they are being criticised they often get angry and do not want to discuss the issue. Also advising them may hurt their feelings and they STUBBORNLY try to make it their own way even if they know that its gonna be a f..k up.
Israelis are rather biased towards many other nations and often feel superior compared to them. Might derive from cultural background (Chosen People and all that crap). However, Western Europeans and Americans are treated with more respect than others. To give an example about this I can tell you that when I was in Israel with my Japanese friend he was treated with disrespectful attitude in many places because of his Asian looks until he told that he is from Japan (money talks I guess).
Israelis can be relatively rude (as an example try to get to the morning bus from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem).
Israelis are loud (as an example try to be without earplugs in a family gathering, especially if there are many people with Yemen origins present:).
Israelis are curious and like to talk (the favorite topic would be money)(gotta mention also the taxi drivers).
Israelis like to travel.
Israelis like to party (whoa).
Israelis are rather impulsive.
Israelis have a different mindset about time compared to many western people.
Israelis are very hospitable when visited.
Israelis like to stick together.
Just to list few points, I could write many more, but I'm scared that my wife sees this:).
Ps. Feel free to give comments about Finnish behaviour and I dont accept comments like Finnish behaviour, what's that?
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cosmicrain
Started Topics :
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56
Posted : Aug 18, 2005 19:00
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@shahar..
what you say may be and infact is factual n true..but..
lemme tell you that the israeli army teaches you kids outa school to be rough n tough from outside..for who can forget when a bunch of israelis were kidnapped by kashmiri militants n in just 2 days the israelis shoved guns up the militants asses killed them and escaped..no other tourist or even indian could have the guts to do that..that was 6 years back..this is an example of how brave you israelis are from outside..
BUT..the army training leaves you traumatised inside..leaves you very insecure..inculcates suspicion against everyone..and that is no reason to vent your rudeness on indians and tourists from other countries in india...that is no excuse shahar..try n be strong from inside..for it is the mindgames that needs to be won before winning anything else
peace..
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Aug 19, 2005 09:10
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-18 17:54, shamanizer wrote:
Israelis are loud (as an example try to be without earplugs in a family gathering, especially if there are many people with Yemen origins present:).
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hehehe...
So you're a Finnish guy married to an Israeli Yemenite girl... you're gonna have a rough time with your children, mate
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Israelis have a different mindset about time compared to many western people. |
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Interesting... Can you elaborate?
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Aug 19, 2005 09:15
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-18 19:00, cosmicrain wrote:
@shahar..
what you say may be and infact is factual n true..but..
lemme tell you that the israeli army teaches you kids outa school to be rough n tough from outside..for who can forget when a bunch of israelis were kidnapped by kashmiri militants n in just 2 days the israelis shoved guns up the militants asses killed them and escaped..no other tourist or even indian could have the guts to do that..that was 6 years back..this is an example of how brave you israelis are from outside..
BUT..the army training leaves you traumatised inside..leaves you very insecure..inculcates suspicion against everyone..and that is no reason to vent your rudeness on indians and tourists from other countries in india...that is no excuse shahar..try n be strong from inside..for it is the mindgames that needs to be won before winning anything else
peace..
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You're oversimplifying mate... things are a bit more complex than that, as you can understand from the very narrow glimpse I gave you in my very long post.
Indians tend to be very impressed with the "hero Israeli" thing. It's pretty much bullshit. A lot of the Israelis that babble much about being heros out of the army were usually drivers or in charge of laundrey or something like that. People who actually exprienced bad shit in the army don't brag about that.
Anyway, when you were saying "you", I hope you didn't think of me- as I was never rude to an Indian, hell... I'm not even rude to Israelis
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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