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Israeli members racist comments on party reviews- is it really necessary?
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Sep 24, 2005 20:39
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Also from my personal experience, even if u live in different country for a long while, still usually u still get the experiences with it's culture as a tourist. I been for a year in Oz and still as I felt connected to Ozzy mentality and habits, still it was from tourist point of view. One needs to grow with the society to understand it fully in my opinion.
  A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Ben P
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Posted : Sep 24, 2005 21:38
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S.D6 / Pure Insanity great video is there anyway to download it? |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Sep 24, 2005 21:49
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I think Mat N has a very valid point here. And these kinds of comments are the ones that makes me go away from the forum for awhile after I see them.
The fact is that generalised comments about Arabs making problems in parties are racist, the same way that generalised comments about Jews always caring only about money are racist.
Even if it was a fact that a lot of times Arabs are violent in parties and even if it was a fact that Jews a lot of times care only about money- it wouldn't change the fact that this is racism.
Making a generalisation based on race/ethnic group/nationality/color/sex/religon is racism.
And while it's true we have to generalise about groups of people to be able to discuss them and their qualities/mentality/identity/group behaviour, there is a very thin line here, and we have to be aware of it. When people are not aware of it, we, as Jewish Israelis, should know too well what horrible things can happen.
Saying something like: "I went to the party but it was full of Arabs, so I left", is pure racism.
Think how a friend of mine, an Arab who loves to party (and never stabs anyone, sells balloons or acts in any violent way), would feel after reading this. Think how you feel while reading similar things said about Jews. Think how Kristian's posts (which I won't discuss really) make you jump sometimes?
The fact is that the Israeli society is infected with racism- this is sad considering our past. It seems that victims often become their attackers/violators- that's humans for you.
It is twice as sad to see this happening in the trance community. A community that started as one where you were always welcomed and no one gave a fuck where you come from or what else you do in your life.
I think we as a community should make people aware of the consequences of what their saying when they're expressing themselves like that- of course we should try to do it in a way that will actually make them think about it, and won't just piss them of. A link to this discussion can be a good idea.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Sep 25, 2005 01:30
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On 2005-09-24 21:49, shahar wrote:
Think how a friend of mine, an Arab who loves to party (and never stabs anyone, sells balloons or acts in any violent way), would feel after reading this.
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Shahar if it is the same person who is a friend of mine as well, I bet he will say the same things about THOSE arabs. I disagree with you Shahar about what u r saying since in your eyes those that make the generalization are racists and I am sorry to tell you am not racist. But first natural instinct of any human being is to care for his own health and the health of his loved ones. When I go to a party or anywhere else and there are ppl that make me feel that I am insecure.. When girl goes to a party and has to dance all the 8 hours she is there with her eyes in the ground, so no one of those ppl will make her time there a living hell, then those generalizations start to evolve.
If the trouble makers in parties were different every single time, those that deal baloons were different all the time, etc... then your point was valid. But as one that been all over Israel for last 8 years, I can say that those types that make the trouble, and because of those ppl I dont want to go to parties and even when I go to play there I always a little concerned, about my personal safety and about the car I leave in the parking lot, are those Gangsta ppl.
Unfortunately I never seen a hippy Gangsta, neither I have seen ppl that projecting good vibe and hide the monster behind their lovely faces. Unfortunately those ppl that make me feel sick and question every single time why do I make music at all are very easy to spot and come from several different social groups that can be count easily on one hand.
Those that dont want to deal with the picture in front of their eyes and play it Buddha ( or Gandhi in your case ), I respect their opinion but hell I can't and don't want to do that. There is nothing bad in taking care about yourself and your loved ones. The fact that one comes to party and pays good money for it, only to be in the corner and try not to get into a problematic situation doesnt make him racist. Neither does the wish to express his feelings about that phenomena. The only other way is to stay home.
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It is twice as sad to see this happening in the trance community. A community that started as one where you were always welcomed and no one gave a fuck where you come from or what else you do in your life.
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I disagree to that as well. The trance movement 10 years ago and more was very very underground and the simple fact is that not many of those ppl we are discussing were aware of them. As time passed and it came out to the surface, one of the unfortunate happenings were that many ppl that their behaviour is questionable joined the party circuit. They joined not because the high values of trance or because they like this music, of course they do like the music but they found out the parties as a very profitable ground they can suck on and get easy shekels from. You can see that everywhere.
Moreover, even in those early days u r describing with so much passion, I recall a horrible story about very known Israeli DJ, that was almost killed ( by a shovel if I am not mistaken ) by bunch of crazed Arabs that 2 hours before had a fight with some Arses, but the arses left so they went straight for the DJ. Somehow I can't see in my wildest imagination a bunch of Hippies doing so. So even with this case that happened somewhere around 1994, the keyplayers were from the same ethnic groups.
As the saying goes:
If it walks like a cat, and miaouuuus as a cat and catching mice as a cat - THIS IS A CAT.
And one last thing.
Last year I came to play in an event. behind the DJ stand there were a bunch of 50 heavy Arses with baloons and all of it was looking pretty dangerous to me, so I told the organizer I am not ready to play like this since I fancy both of my kidneys being intact to my body. I left the party and felt a great relief being out of that place.
Does it make me racist saying I left because all the situation was very threatening and the reason for it was the Ars gathering behind the DJ booth? Hail no.
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Optimistic Suicide
IsraTrance Junior Member
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278
Posted : Sep 25, 2005 15:25
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"Ba li letzok ani FREHAAAAA lalalalala"
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Dark_Dork
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 25, 2005 17:46
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Dressed to kill you look so right... I am drunk with lust tonite. |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Sep 25, 2005 17:56
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shahar, the shanti shanti attitude works as long as no one abuses it and uses it against you. i feel that in cases like that, one has to snap out of shantiness and take action... the other option is to surrender and bitch about the days nobody abused you.
also, i think as someone who knows you, i know you dont attend parties as much as the forum members who posted here... the few parties you do go to or play at do not have any of the issues discussed here... maybe you should look at yourself and examine before passing judgement? it seems that since your reality doesnt deal with this, you decided it doesnt exist for the rest of the people...
im not justifying any racist comments with my statements btw, i am just trying to state that there is a fine line sometimes, and semantics, especially on the net, can be misunderstood as something other then they are. "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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DJ Buju
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 25, 2005 23:10
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A.p.e
A.P.E.
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199
Posted : Sep 26, 2005 00:54
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Lol killer video....
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i think it's all the energy of the person (his inner "kavanot")
i dont mind the outfit of the person ,only his innter energy ,but i do split ppl to 2 groups
un violent \ violent
I WANNA BE AT PARTYIES ONLY WITH UN VIOLENT PPL . DOESNT MATTERS IF IT'S JEWS ARSIM OR ARABS
how to acive that wihtout hearting anyone may be complicated ,but this is another issue
http://www.myspace.com/psychedelicape |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Sep 26, 2005 17:35
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On 2005-09-25 17:56, Surrender wrote:
shahar, the shanti shanti attitude works as long as no one abuses it and uses it against you. i feel that in cases like that, one has to snap out of shantiness and take action... the other option is to surrender and bitch about the days nobody abused you.
also, i think as someone who knows you, i know you dont attend parties as much as the forum members who posted here... the few parties you do go to or play at do not have any of the issues discussed here... maybe you should look at yourself and examine before passing judgement? it seems that since your reality doesnt deal with this, you decided it doesnt exist for the rest of the people...
im not justifying any racist comments with my statements btw, i am just trying to state that there is a fine line sometimes, and semantics, especially on the net, can be misunderstood as something other then they are.
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Did you read my post, Gadi? Please read it again. Especially the thin line part...
What shanti shanti attitude was I taking? Please explain, as I did not understand.
Both yourself & Yuli have gone into I've-got-to-defend-myself-mode, and I don't see the relevance of that to this discussion. That there are groups coming to parties who ruin it for the majority of people is nothing new. That there are violent ppl coming to parties is nothing new. That there are arsim coming to parties is nothing new and that there are Arabs coming to parties is nothing new. All this, including racist remarks, existed when I was partying hard every weekend Thursday night to Saturday evening for few years non-stop. Only the baloons are new- what to do- things do get worse- the past is always better...
My attitude is that if violence harms you you can say that without the need to attach to it a racial tab.
Try to think why is it that people say Arabs and what kind of mental baggage these comments carry?
What kind of Arab do they see when they say that?
Why non of my Arab friends coming to a party (not many) would be mentioned as Arabs in Isratrance posts?
I'll tell you why- because they don't look Arabs. Meaning they don't look the kind of Arabs people here are talking about. They are regular party people, just Arab. Can you see what I'm aiming at? To begin with, in these posts, Arabs are voilent criminal people who come sell baloons in parties, make a pass and half naked hippie girls, and stab their boyfriend or anyone else in the vicinity, especially if they can still the cash.
Do you really think that this is the way the majority of the Arab population in Israel behaves? If you do- you're infected with racism as well (to make you feel better, to a certain extent we all are, thinking in categories- this is unavoidable for humans). It is not true- most Arabs in Israel are just people like us (with harder lives usually- it's not easy being a minority, especially not in this particular situation). And yes there are Arab criminals as there are Jewish criminals, and yes- both come to fuck parties up.
And there are other Arabs- not criminal, not violent- just ppl, different than us, true, and yet very much the same. And some, very few for many social reasons, come to parties. And don't make balagan- well just good balagan anyway.
To use Yuli's expression- the problem is that "THOSE arabs" just turn to all Arabs and become one and the same thing. This is what I don't like.
As I said, and you repeated, it's a very thin line, and I think people should be aware of it. It's got nothing to do with wanting to defend yourself and wanting to keep a certain vibe in your party or how many parties you attend.
I want the parties I go to to have a great vibe, vibe of tolerance, freedom, openness, love and friendship. I don't want voilent people there- Arabs, Jews, Chinese, Danish or whatever.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Mat N
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Sep 26, 2005 18:13
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On 2005-09-26 17:35, shahar wrote:
My attitude is that if violence harms you you can say that without the need to attach to it a racial tab.
Try to think why is it that people say Arabs and what kind of mental baggage these comments carry?
What kind of Arab do they see when they say that?
Why non of my Arab friends coming to a party (not many) would be mentioned as Arabs in Isratrance posts?
I'll tell you why- because they don't look Arabs. Meaning they don't look the kind of Arabs people here are talking about. They are regular party people, just Arab. Can you see what I'm aiming at? To begin with, in these posts, Arabs are voilent criminal people who come sell baloons in parties, make a pass and half naked hippie girls, and stab their boyfriend or anyone else in the vicinity, especially if they can still the cash.
Do you really think that this is the way the majority of the Arab population in Israel behaves? If you do- you're infected with racism as well (to make you feel better, to a certain extent we all are, thinking in categories- this is unavoidable for humans). It is not true- most Arabs in Israel are just people like us (with harder lives usually- it's not easy being a minority, especially not in this particular situation). And yes there are Arab criminals as there are Jewish criminals, and yes- both come to fuck parties up.
And there are other Arabs- not criminal, not violent- just ppl, different than us, true, and yet very much the same. And some, very few for many social reasons, come to parties. And don't make balagan- well just good balagan anyway.
To use Yuli's expression- the problem is that "THOSE arabs" just turn to all Arabs and become one and the same thing. This is what I don't like.
As I said, and you repeated, it's a very thin line, and I think people should be aware of it. It's got nothing to do with wanting to defend yourself and wanting to keep a certain vibe in your party or how many parties you attend.
I want the parties I go to to have a great vibe, vibe of tolerance, freedom, openness, love and friendship. I don't want voilent people there- Arabs, Jews, Chinese, Danish or whatever.
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finally, after 3 pages, i see someone who understood the meanning of this thread. too bad it's only you Shahar (and HandA, but he's not Israeli, and i aimed this thread to the Israeli members who don't understand the problem, or just don't care).
people don't notice that they don't call the arabs who come to ruin parties :"arsim", instead, they CHOOSE to call them "arabs". it's exactly as calling the Israeli Arsim "Israelis", but no one does that. as if all arabs are Arsim and want to ruin parties. and that's racism. |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Sep 26, 2005 18:39
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On 2005-09-26 17:35, shahar wrote:
To use Yuli's expression- the problem is that "THOSE arabs" just turn to all Arabs and become one and the same thing. This is what I don't like.
As I said, and you repeated, it's a very thin line, and I think people should be aware of it. It's got nothing to do with wanting to defend yourself and wanting to keep a certain vibe in your party or how many parties you attend.
I want the parties I go to to have a great vibe, vibe of tolerance, freedom, openness, love and friendship. I don't want voilent people there- Arabs, Jews, Chinese, Danish or whatever.
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Shahar it doesnt seem to me we have difference in our way of thought - and same with you Mat N
This discussion with the long enthusiastic messages is about only one thing: SEMANTHICS
And that is a pity since it looks like our dear Knesset ( parlament ) that basically speak only about semanthics all day long.
Shahar ask your Arab friends what they think about THOSE arabs and are they afraid of them. I am sure what the answer will be. At least for me the statement: 'Arabs' isnt different from 'Arses' or 'Russians' as long as in the topic of the discussion it is clear who are we speaking about... Surely not all Russians in Israel came to bring down a certain party.. But between ppl that go to parties everyone knows well the Russian gangs too, and if it is said: bunch of Russians came in and broke the party everyone will know what the meaning is.
So it is all about SEMANTHICS after all.
Don't u think so?
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Mat N
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Sep 26, 2005 18:45
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On 2005-09-26 18:39, Yuli wrote:
So it is all about SEMANTHICS after all.
Don't u think so?
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yes, but very sensitive semanthics that we all should be aware of.
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psy^soldier
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 26, 2005 19:43
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anyhow i think they brought this on them selfs |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Sep 26, 2005 20:36
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On 2005-09-26 18:39, Yuli wrote:
Shahar it doesnt seem to me we have difference in our way of thought - and same with you Mat N
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Not on the important things for sure. But this we both know 
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So it is all about SEMANTHICS after all.
Don't u think so?
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Well, semantics has a lot to do with meanings. And I think that we can learn a lot from words and also we should pay a lot of attention to how they are used and what is behind them- especially in a place like this where everything is written.
That last post is a good example...
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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