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dj skills and software ?

Dennis the menace
DevilsDennis Sparris McHilton

Started Topics :  128
Posts :  2899
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 09:35
2012 is in less than 10 years!
duodenumz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  15
Posts :  116
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 12:01
Quote:

what does a Dj do? yeah, we get to pick and choose tracks, Eq them together, make the transitions and all this using a little creativity also.

...

A dj's mission isn't to reconstruct tracks, its just to make smooth, comprehensible transitions between tracks while getting the crowd to respond to the music.



I think you greatly undersell what a DJ "does". What does Q-Bert "do"? What does Plastikman "do"? They have explored new directions in DJing, and you should too if you love the art. If you are really satisfied with the way you construct sets, keep doing it.

CDJs are missing the point IMO. They add an extra layer of technology that really is redundant. Dance music is made on computers now, and it makes the most sense to play it directly from the source.

If you're not convinced of your direction, then try out digital mixing for a while and see what you think. THEN you can offer an informed opinion. You may even find a new direction for what you "do".

And being a good DJ is WAY more than beatmatching (for the 3132th time!) You must understand how to EQ, how to sequence, and how to generally bring listeners from point A to point B. Most DJs don't do this very well, and there is no computer yet that will do it for them.
technoid


Started Topics :  6
Posts :  230
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 12:51
I've always hated CDJ's and still do. Just never really got on with them and continued to use vinyl. I got Ableton a couple of weeks ago, however, and although I've not had time to play with it much yet I think it's a bit of a non-argument to compare it to vinyl or CD. The scope of what you can do with Ableton takes it far beyond a mere DJing tool. If all you think about is beatmatching, you aren't a very good DJ anyway. Beatmatching is just the bread and butter of DJing and you don't have to be creative to beatmatch. It's going to take me months to get to grips with all Ableton can do. I can't wait!!!!           "One nation under a groove".
clown
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  97
Posts :  1777
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 15:57
This conversation is going nowhere fast.

software is like playing videogames.. yeah, for sure, you can learn how to be a good hockey player by playing NHL 2008 all day on your PS3 but it doesn't mean you can skate when it comes down to playing hockey on an ice rink. Nor does it give anyone proper understanding on real defensive strategies or how to deak out the goaltender. For sure it is fun to play games and it lets you score 10 goals against the best team in the NHL. I am sure more and more kids play videogames today then acctually those who join in a league. In the future, there will be on-line tournaments organized by the NHL themselves and you will most probably have the chance to play against Wayne Gretzky himself if you make it to the finals (something that would most probably not happen if you played real ice hockey)..

So yeah, just because the future is going towards something, it doesn't mean anything even if the possibilities seem greater. That is basically how i see people who start up with software.

Perso, when i first started mixed, i used software to get a basic understanding on how things worked. When i was ready i hit the hardware. After a few years, i picked up some technics and started mixing vinyle as well.
          "VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca
Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1560
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 17:14
@clown
Err...great analogy...apart from that you in no way explained why using software is like playing a video game compared to playing a sport for real so actually it was not much of an analogy at all.

But again...DJ'ing is not a competition.
If it let's you perform to the equivalent of "scoring 10 goals against the best team in the NHL" because you use a better technology you should be happy and the crowd will for sure be happy.
It's not a penis measuring contest, it's about providing the best experience possible for the crowd.

Personally I don't think that you instantly become a top class DJ by using software, for that you need skill and practice regardless of what technology you use.
Some things you don't need to practice as much any more, but there is new skills appearing that you need to acquire instead.
          (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
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Dennis the menace
DevilsDennis Sparris McHilton

Started Topics :  128
Posts :  2899
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 17:56
Quote:

On 2007-06-28 17:14, Spindrift wrote:
DJ'ing is not a competition.



http://www.dmcworld.com/championships/2007/home.asp
clown
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  97
Posts :  1777
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 19:05
sorry, i guess i should have added the other half of the anology.

well, i'll just add what was missing :

When referring to time played on the PS3, convert that to time spent learning the software. when i use the word "videogames", replace with "using software". When i say score 10 goals against the best team", replace with "added tons of effects and had 3 tracks playing at the same time for 2 hours straight".
. When i make mention to deaking the goaltender, we can think of that as being creative. When saying its fun to play videogames, i really mean that its fun to play on the Pc and add all those cool effects while visually watching your wave lengths move forward in a marching fashion. And i end my statement with the hope of playing against wayne gretzky, meaning you can probably take things further with software to a certain extent, but then again, games are ment to be fun and are intended to take things out of proportion.

I though that was obvious.. lol..

and about the penis competition, your right, its not about who's is longer (yet the so called advantages of using software is that you can pump up your penis even more lol), where as when you use CDJ's, all we have is the feeling of our cock in our hands.. lol..           "VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca
Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  168
Posts :  2984
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 21:30
Quote:

On 2007-06-18 21:01, Jester Records wrote:
i guess where i get jammed is because it seems to "make the job easier" by using a computer.



The ability to set cue points on a CDJ is far easier than repeatedly lining up the needle on a turntable. It opens up all sorts of options for rapid response to structural changes or advanced layering.

Likewise, the new field of laptop DJing is opening up all sorts of creative options, or at least making existing ones easier. I don't see the point in getting uptight over certain mundane tasks becoming streamlined as technology improves. It has already been mentioned, but it bears repeating, that beatmatching (simply synchronizing the tempo and phrasing of two songs) leaves no room for creativity. It doesn't matter whether you're Jeff Mills or DJ Clown--beatmatching is simply something to get out of the way in order to get to the interesting stuff.

Quote:
I have seen people pre-load entire playlists in there so called mixing application and then, yes, they make the transitions well but it just seems weird to have all the tracks laid out perfectly beforehand..



Sure, but that's terrible DJing. Yes, software offers new shortcuts that can be abused... but no one looking to push the boundaries will fall for that kind of thing. As spinalpuppet mentioned, it was only a few years ago that people (myself included) resisted the idea of DJing with CDs, citing all manner of esoteric (but ultimately untenable) arguments against change. Vinyl was "warmer" we said; the "hands-on" feel is necessary; using automatic cue points is like cheating; CD media is inferior because anyone can rip and burn; moving away from vinyl is giving up a vital element of EDM history in favour of some dubious, untested, and ultimately "soulless" approach to DJing that will surely lead to our replacement by robots and the complete obliteration of our underground culture... and so on. It seemed rather dire at the time, but I for one grew up and grew out of that nonsense. Digital music tends to sound better on digital media. Trance DJs are not turntablists; the CD interface offers as much of a hands-on interface as we need. The convenient interoperability of CDs is a benefit, not a crutch. And as for the nostalgia factor... well, it was DAT tapes they were playing on the beaches of Goa--not vinyl--so the point is moot.

The same applies to the new wave of DJing software. I promise you that whatever argument you could think up would be no better than arguments against the adoption of CDJing technology. For example: you posit that an immense collection of unsorted MP3s would be tough to sift through when seeking out the next track. No question! But there are certain DJing axioms that will never change, and "know your music" is one of the most important. Just as you sort your record bag, so too should a software DJ sort their hard drive. I am about a month into the process of ripping every CD in my collection, and I tell you it is such a great feeling to split off the obligatory downtempo tunes from the ends of progressive and full-on albums. I would never have gone for those tunes when playing a chill set simply because they were poorly filed (by nature) in my CD binders. I am ecstatic to dispose of all the tunes I would never play and overjoyed at the potential for making new connections between songs I never would have considered blending before. One would be right to remain apprehensive of using a keyboard and mouse to DJ, but that's why there are a wide range of controllers on the market. No longer must one choose between a vinyl platter and a jog wheel; the choices are absolutely endless. With some electronics knowledge, you could even build your own custom interface (and here I am thinking of a motion-sensitive glove and other such far out possibilities). I have heard some people say they despise laptop DJs because they play poorly encoded MP3s; well, one can do that easily enough with CD decks as well. I could come up with similar arguments for just about anything not based on a sentimental view of DJing, with only a few exceptions... namely that, at this exact moment, CDJing technology is far more robust than laptop DJing by far. In a performance context, I have some doubts about how dependable software DJing really is... which is why, as much as I am excited (and preparing) for the new technology, I am not planning to use it in a performance context just yet.

Vinny, you have a huge advantage over anyone contemplating getting right into software DJing right now. I would say the greatest deficiency of the new technology is that no one really needs to learn like we did. Some of the criticism against laptop DJing is valid; I've heard some guys that don't seem to have an ear for poorly phased beats. Newcomers to DJing who immediately employ software can come to rely on that software too much (i.e. if the computer says its beatmatched, it must be right). Technology aside, nothing but practice and experience can teach a DJ about track selection, programming, and other more obscure points of DJing. Those of us with a long history of working with other mediums and a variety of equipment have a huge advantage in this respect. We have the ear for music that no computer can replicate. Why revel in the drudgery when you can take your creative potential to new heights? Well, that's my attitude anyhow... I am looking forward to the day where I can bring out my 1TB external drive and have instant access to every good song I own. With all the requisite cue points pre-marked, keys and BPMs analyzed and filed, a wide assortment of plugins and effects to employ, and a physical interface perfectly suited to my process and techniques, I think it will feel about as close to true freedom as DJing can get. Who would say "no" to that?
technoid


Started Topics :  6
Posts :  230
Posted : Jun 28, 2007 23:25
Quote:

On 2007-06-28 19:05, clown wrote:

and about the penis competition, your right, its not about who's is longer (yet the so called advantages of using software is that you can pump up your penis even more lol), where as when you use CDJ's, all we have is the feeling of our cock in our hands.. lol..




Any woman will tell you it's about girth, not length. I'll let you fit that into your analogy yourself!           "One nation under a groove".
fohat


Started Topics :  2
Posts :  23
Posted : Jun 29, 2007 12:24
Quote:

On 2007-06-28 15:57, clown wrote:

software is like playing videogames.. yeah, for sure, you can learn how to be a good hockey player by playing NHL 2008 all day on your PS3 but it doesn't mean you can skate when it comes down to playing hockey on an ice rink.



You fail within your own analogy. Just have a look what you said within the same post.

Above you are stating that playing videogames will not not teach you anything which can be used for for real life and below you are mentioning that dj software teached you to get a basic understanding of what it is all about...

Quote:

Perso, when i first started mixed, i used software to get a basic understanding on how things worked. When i was ready i hit the hardware. After a few years, i picked up some technics and started mixing vinyle as well.



software mixing teaches a lot when it comes to mixing with cd's!
Jester Records
Jester Records

Started Topics :  24
Posts :  254
Posted : Jun 30, 2007 02:21
Fine, then say software is a stepping stone before you start to mix. I can agree on that one ! Sure, its a fun way to try and build up sets and train your ear. Great if that's why you use it.

But then, saying to people "hey, listen to my new dj set, its flawless and there's tons of effects" and expect "wow, your such a great dj" type comments would be totally dumb.

We always say its not a competition, yet we love to get rated. "listen to my set and tell me your comments" is what is often said when a dj posts up a new mix. Well, what are we looking for as feedback comments?? cool effects?? tight mixing ?? smooth transitions?? None of those are relevant when using software because anyone can add effects as you go, insert funky loops here and there and seamlessly beatmatch tracks together, now even tighter thanks to visual aid....

Try doing all that with Cd's on the fly and you will have my props !! If its not props you are after, never post up your sets and don't even bother to play infront of people. basically, mix for yourself. and in that case, for sure use software !!!

you feel me a little more now?? or will you focus more on girls like "girth" (whatever that is) more than length ?           www.jesterrecords.ca
duodenumz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  15
Posts :  116
Posted : Jun 30, 2007 08:13
Basically, software mixing is for creative people. CDs are for people who are concerned with "keeping it real" (real boring). Live will lead you to new challenges and the start of your new act, while CDs will just keep you doing the same thing as always.
technoid


Started Topics :  6
Posts :  230
Posted : Jun 30, 2007 17:38
I never would say something like "listen to my new mixtape, it's flawless and there's tons of effects", it would be retarded. How about "listen to my new mixtape, it's got loads of cool tunes on it and there are some nice mixes"? Can't imagine anyone mixing for 'props' other than turntablists maybe. I've always found it to be about making nice sounds for people to dance to, or for my own pleasure. It's all about tune selection and mood for me. If people look happy on the dancefloor or my head's chilling then I'll be smiling.

Yes, pretty much anyone can play with loops and effects, but unless they know what they are doing and have some musical creativity it'll end up sounding totally overcooked and bloody awful.

I mix other stuff than trance as well and one of the things I love most about vinyl is that the mixing can sound really raw, with cuts and rewinds and such like, especially with jungle and techno. There's room for everything and there are things I prefer about software and things I prefer about vinyl. Still don't like CDJ's though.

Girth means width.
          "One nation under a groove".
Magox
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  20
Posts :  2095
Posted : Jun 30, 2007 18:41
Quote:

On 2007-06-30 02:21, Jester Records wrote:
Fine, then say software is a stepping stone before you start to mix. I can agree on that one ! Sure, its a fun way to try and build up sets and train your ear. Great if that's why you use it.

But then, saying to people "hey, listen to my new dj set, its flawless and there's tons of effects" and expect "wow, your such a great dj" type comments would be totally dumb.

We always say its not a competition, yet we love to get rated. "listen to my set and tell me your comments" is what is often said when a dj posts up a new mix. Well, what are we looking for as feedback comments?? cool effects?? tight mixing ?? smooth transitions?? None of those are relevant when using software because anyone can add effects as you go, insert funky loops here and there and seamlessly beatmatch tracks together, now even tighter thanks to visual aid....

Try doing all that with Cd's on the fly and you will have my props !! If its not props you are after, never post up your sets and don't even bother to play infront of people. basically, mix for yourself. and in that case, for sure use software !!!

you feel me a little more now?? or will you focus more on girls like "girth" (whatever that is) more than length ?



if your djing for the fact to be able to say "hey, listen to my new dj set, its flawless and there's tons of effects" and expect "wow, your such a great dj"

well, i would have to say that your probably in it for the wrong reasons. It wouldn't be about the enjoyment of the people, but more for your self satisfaction. Which obviously this mental state is not caused by the mixing softwares, it is something that you would of felt long before this. That is more of a character trait issue than a technology software mixing issue. Right?

When you stated "We always say its not a competition, yet we love to get rated. "listen to my set and tell me your comments" is what is often said when a dj posts up a new mix. Well, what are we looking for as feedback comments?? cool effects?? tight mixing ?? smooth transitions?? None of those are relevant when using software because anyone can add effects as you go, insert funky loops here and there and seamlessly beatmatch tracks together, now even tighter thanks to visual aid...."

I don't see that as being competitive, if i ask for feedback on something that i created, it is so i can adjust or improve what i created, hence feedback.
Your thinking from a different point of view, which sort of tells me that that's how YOU think....Some people ask so they can get praises, other's ask to improve quality.

Then you say "Try doing all that with Cd's on the fly and you will have my props !! If its not props you are after, never post up your sets and don't even bother to play infront of people. basically, mix for yourself. and in that case, for sure use software !!! "

once again, it's not about the getting "props" as you say. It seems to me that you are somewhat absorbed in this way of thinking.

For me, i am constantly asked to listen to people's music and mixes, and when they ask me i tell them the truth of what i think, and i will critique it and hopefully they will at least listen and try to improve it because of the FEEDBACK that was given.

Anyone who mixes and looks to recieve "props" or recogniction or praises for himself, I would have to say is someone is self absorbed with himself and probably wouldnt make a good dj because they are looking after themselves first rather than the crowd.

They probably are lousy lovers as well, too consumed about getting themselves off instead of their partner. I know for myself that i find it more pleasing when i please others first, it makes me willy a lil illy...


           "On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish one’s own faults rather than to judge others"
fohat


Started Topics :  2
Posts :  23
Posted : Jul 2, 2007 11:33
Quote:

On 2007-06-30 02:21, Jester Records wrote:
Fine, then say software is a stepping stone before you start to mix. I can agree on that one ! Sure, its a fun way to try and build up sets and train your ear. Great if that's why you use it.

But then, saying to people "hey, listen to my new dj set, its flawless and there's tons of effects" and expect "wow, your such a great dj" type comments would be totally dumb.




I don't get the point really. where is the link between software mixing and a self loving behaviour of a dj?

if somebody is able to put out a mix with perfect track selection, mixed flawless with nice effects/loops and transitions, what is wrong about it as long as it is good? do you still think that software is doing this for you? you mentioned that you started over with software so you should know it is just a media, not more not less.

would you ever blame an artist (who is producing the tracks) for using the latest software with tons of automation features just beacuse it is not enough hands on anymore on the music? then you should start blaming all artists just for the fact that they mostly don't use real instruments.

i would guess that you are spinning on the cdj's 100? would you blame dj's spinning on the 1000's just for the fact, that there are so many features on them (close to some you find in dj software as well) to help making better and tighter mixes?

and yes it has been mentioned before a couple of times: there is nothing bad in using any media as long as the dj gets the crowd shakin'. if he fails than it's nothing more then him being not a good dj.
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