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CDJs Vs Digital Djing
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dreadieg
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
49
Posts :
478
Posted : Apr 2, 2011 07:25
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wils: man, who cares? being awesome 100% of the time or being original 100% of the time and being awesome 50..... seems like a fair trade!
beside, good psytrance isn't all that hard to make. just take a year off from the parties and make love to your studio!
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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93
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2822
Posted : Apr 2, 2011 10:00
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I heartily disagree that good psytrance isn't hard to make. Shitty psytrance is easy to make, sure...but anymore it takes me months to finish one track and its getting longer with each track
I value a professional level of sound more than my own desire to hear my stuff played out...I feel the dancefloor would suffer unnecessarily because I have an ego problem 
It'll be ready when its ready, I'm not rushing it. Maybe next summer 
 If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Ake
IsraTrance Junior Member
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22
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108
Posted : May 31, 2011 02:16
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well, i'm a "home DJ" or rather "somebody who records sets at home" since 2006. i have always used Traktor and nothing else, since last year with a better soundcard than just windows onboard one. i tried CDJs and DJM in a shop recently. my impression is that using hardware only is of course more DJish but that you have less control over your mix. In Traktor i can mix like (for example): tone x of track A comes exactly 4 beats before tone y of track B. i can exactly plan that and it is reliable. when using hardware only i don't have that kind of full control over the mix. it's more spontaneous, more "natural" too, but you don't have that kind of full control to record a carefully planned "studio mix".
am i wrong? i would like to hear your opinions. maybe i just don't know enough about hardware mixing, so i have wrong impressions. thanks.
https://www.mixcloud.com/ake_melting_runes |
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Braindrop
Braindrop
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140
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1730
Posted : Jul 18, 2011 23:24
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Is digital dji'ng considered pretty lame only in the trance scene?? coz to me the other music scenes, seem to be pretty much thriving on it.
I usually do my dj sets on CD's. I pretty much enjoy it that way, coz i love the look and feel of machines/instruments.. gives me some sort of a boost. But off late for some reason, seeing all the technology burst, the various digital djing platforms on option, i feel the need to try something new and maybe it could turn out to be creative or at least something different to try on. i'm already feeling a lil ancient, when i see some of the fellas show me something cool on the digital one 
Let's face that there isn't much to do for trance mixing wise (apart from the eqing, quick cutting, progressive mixing, fx etc) the tricks are mostly for the hip-hop/rap or the house guys, coz our music is already layered enough to do anything else.
I've already tried my hand on digital dj'ing via Ableton. I quite like it, except for the fuckin warping thing which can be quite a pain in the ass. But gives a lot more freedom to play with stuff. Traktor (though i havent tried much) on the other hand, seems pretty easy to use, and as some one mentioned , for once you could enjoy the music and concentrate on more tricky stuff, while not worrying much about beatmatching. And especially with the new controllers by them, it looks really worthwhile to try.
I do agree, that if you want to DJ, that it is good or ideal to do it the right way first, or at least learn the way of decks/vinyl. After which you could choose yourself what to try...
Anyhow, i'd like to know your thoughts, as i'm considering a shift.... yay or nay ???
P.S .. Quoting a festival/party promoter from the scene... 'We dont accept Traktor or laptop dj's'
Considering this was said to a relatively newcomer, wonder this would have been said to an established act! ... Now, how does this scene move forward ???
www.braindrop.in |
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mudpeople
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
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1785
Posted : Jul 19, 2011 06:46
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If teh warping in Live 8 is a problem I suggest trying 7. I started using Live at 6, and really got into it with 7, then when 8 came out, I gave it a good whirl, to my frustration. One day I decided to open up 7 again, and not only did it warp so much faster, it uses less cpu, loads faster, and offers me everything I could ask.
I say that a lot.
My opinion on teh whole thing, is that, I never started mixing to be a cool dj or anythign, i just wanted to have fun. Over the yrs using CDs I often would find my set already over without my noticing because I was focused mostly on synching the tracks, which left nto a lot of attention for creativity. Live lets me have more fun and actually enjoy the music more instead of, what I think of it as, being at work on teh cdjs.
Ill still play cd sets though no problem. I thnk that stuff is in my genes now...
To me teh dj is the LAST thing I care about at a party, the music is first above all others, so to me it totally doesnt maek a bit of difference if a dj is using software or hard. But I do have to say, a dj whose repertoire came from p2p, thats kinda lame. I try to play cd quality WAV or FLAC whenever possible, mp3 only when i cant find lossless
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Dennis the menace
Moderator
Started Topics :
128
Posts :
2899
Posted : Jul 19, 2011 07:29
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Quote:
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On 2011-07-18 23:24, Braindrop wrote:
Quoting a festival/party promoter from the scene... 'We dont accept Traktor or laptop dj's'
Considering this was said to a relatively newcomer, wonder this would have been said to an established act! ... Now, how does this scene move forward ???
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This scene doesn't move forward, alot of big festivals and parties still provides cdj100 / 800 and rusty mixers for them dj's, sometimes i wish they could leave a crowbar on the stage to get the faders up. The scene is stuck up in its own ass.
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elastic_plastic
Re-Boot
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
1612
Posted : Jul 19, 2011 14:12
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[quote]
On 2011-07-18 23:24, Braindrop wrote:
I've already tried my hand on digital dj'ing via Ableton. I quite like it, except for the fuckin warping thing which can be quite a pain in the ass. But gives a lot more freedom to play with stuff.
Bro... Warping and looping on ableton is one of the best things i ever came across. It makes it so so so much easier and better for ur sets.... |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
93
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2822
Posted : Jul 19, 2011 18:42
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Any promoter/organizer who says they don't accept laptop djs is a fuckin asshat.
Tools are tools, it's up to the individual to use them properly.
I know bad djs on CDjs, bad djs on laptops. I also know that there are things you can do with ableton that are impossible to do on CDjs and I like to have options.
Also I despise having to deal with someone's crap mixer - I've been at shows where good djs have been blindsided by equipment issues and it sucks. Ive never had an issue though because I jsust use one open channel and mix with my own stuff.
Sure, I have to lug a laptop and a sound card and a midi controller and two iPads aroud but my setup is unique, flexible and I know it works.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Jul 20, 2011 00:02
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I think the issue with laptop djs (and I was at that festival in India where the promoter said this thing) is the fact that people don't really mix. And with many ableton djs, if their warp is off, it takes skill to be able to correct it. Most ableton djs don't know this and therefore mixes don't sound as smooth. I'm personally ok with people who mix from their laptop as long as they can actually MIX. I'm a big fan of tactile control and I think this is needed for making small corrections or very long 3+ min mixes.
Another point I want to talk about is the fact that people want to see you doing stuff, it's boring to watch some person hiding behind their computer mousing in a track. It's pretty much the same as when you want to see a live act, would you rather watch the artist dance (*cough Cough Eskimo*) or you want to see them doing something?
But really, nobody should be using automix or anything like that.
If someone is doing live remixing of tracks or layering many tracks on top of each other like techno, then I'm cool with people using live because they're actually doing more stuff and can't really be bothered to cue and beat mix, but if you're only doing 2 tracks, I'd rather you use something that you can adjust the track in real time.
I'm more of a fan of software dj programs that incorporate midi timecode cds or vinyl. Or have dedicated controllers that will allow you to have tactile control.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 20, 2011 01:37
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See, I don't really get that. Maybe it's because I've never used CDJs or Vinyl and have only used Ableton - thankfully my computer hasn't fucked up and I've never had to use the backup CD that I put in the CDJ before I start
I agree with you that people should know how to mix before DJing (lol...). I've experienced many a laptop DJ who didn't know wtf they were doing and had bad timestretching, or badly warped tracks, or couldn't mix their way out of a paper bag....
I've also seen lots of people on CDJs fuck up too. It has absolutely nothing to do with the technology that someone is using to DJ with and everything to do with that person and how much time they have invested in their craft.
Bad DJs shouldn't be booked. If you can't mix, you shouldn't be playing out regardless if you use Vinyl or DAT or Ableton.
When you say 'tactile control' by the way - do you mean specifically a jog wheel type thing to scroll through the track?
Why is that so necessary? To me, seeing someone move a CDJ platter in a circle is no more appealing to seeing someone click a mouse - I'm much more interested in what they're playing and the type of energy they're bringing to their performance.
It seems as if whenever this argument comes up its the professional CDJ using DJ vs the straw man can't-mix-doesn't-know-shit laptop DJ with no MIDI controller that plays through itunes...
There isn't anything special about playing on Vinyl or CDJs.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Jul 20, 2011 11:26
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Well, that's the problem. If all you know is ableton, then you can't really say what's what. Seeing people fuck up with things like cd players or records happens just like people with laptops, but the thing is you can correct the error with cds and records, ableton isn't something to can correct the mix in mid-mix. Tactile control is basically using your hands to adjust something, instant gratification if you touch something to adjust the speed you can feel it and hear it. Can't do that with just a laptop. If you have some controller, you'll get that type of control. Why is it's necessary to have tactile control? You try to scratch with a laptop. But performing is so much more than just playing music. A performance requires connecting with the crowd, and the crowd connecting with you. Otherwise, a software program could do the same job.
For instance, I could rig up an Ableton set that using a combination of follow actions, dummy clips, and clip automation would make a one touch full dj set. Not so interesting if you ask me. But just to prove my point, I'll set up a mix for you guys and upload the project.
I just feel that unless you're adding more to tracks with extra loops and whatnot, then why use Ableton to play other people's music.
I have one final question for you in particular Will, do you know how to beatmatch? Can you determine the individual tempo of a song without using a beat counter, just based upon it's relationship to another track? I invite you to just try mixing with a physical medium and you will see the difference. It is a bit more difficult than playing music through Ableton.
I guess I'm just a bit old skool cause I used to use Vinyl in the beginning and went to cd players. I use live to perform my own music, but the act of beatmixing and matching the beats of other people's music is both meditative and employs some interesting brain functions too.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
93
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Posted : Jul 20, 2011 18:37
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No, I don't know how to beatmatch without ableton. Before I found ableton I used another software program that didn't auto-beat match, and while I could get it after a while it wasn't worth it to me once I found ableton and realized that this software can beatmatch better than any human being alive.
However, just because I don't know how to do that doesn't mean I am not familiar with the basic concepts of CDJs or Vinyl or manual beatmatching. Also, when I warp a track I sometimes get it not quite right and I can identify when a track is playing out of time with another and I know what to do to fix it.
It's like saying, oh man, you never rode a bike and you use a car? YOU'RE TOTALLY MISSING OUT and can't even TRY to talk about what riding a bike is all about.
I could rig up an Ableton set like that too...I could also mix a CD beforehand and press play on that....Again you are creating a straw man laptop DJ for the purposes of this argument. The person you are talking about is not even using a MIDI controller...yeah I wouldn't book that DJ. I completely agree that without some controller/tactile interface you can't DJ effectively.
However, I consider manual beatmatching to be utterly unnecessary considering the state of technology right now. In a minute or so I can take pretty much any trance track and warp it so that it can be played in any tempo with any number of other clips at the same time. You know this, you use Ableton as well. I don't see what the big difference is between consciously knowing and setting the tempo and then saving that information so that you don't ever have to do it again and doing it manually every single time you want to play a track.
The quaint manual beatmatching issue. It doesn't matter!
I've said this a billion times on this forum, but it bears repeating. Manual beatmatching is simply a technical skill, not an artistic ability. As long as someone is playing tracks in-time and mixing well I could give a fuck what they're using. I don't care if the person is using a CDJ or Vinyl and its 'harder' to line the tracks up - I care about the mixing, the energy that the DJ brings to the performance, the track selection etc.
When have you ever said to yourself "man, that guys beatmatching is so sick! Did you hear how he played those two tracks together and they were in time!?!? OH MAN!!!!"
I can completely see why people who learned on Vinyl or CDJs stay with it - because they are familiar with it and they can utilize it to get what they want.
But for me? Fuck beatmatching. I don't want to pay attention to that trivial, completely technical aspect of playing music *when I don't have to*. When I DJ with ableton I'm using an APC40 for triggering/mixing and 2 iPads for live synth work and FX over the top. I have 4 virtual decks, a plethora of live synth patches to work with, my own mixer that I know like the back of my hand, my entire music library at my disposal instantly, and a bunch of other crap that you probably already know about because you use ableton to perform as well.
....but nah, I really like to beatmatch so I'll just go back to using CDs? Do you see how this doesn't make any sense to me?
Again - this is not dissing other DJs who don't use Ableton - it's just a defense against what I see as a very silly argument against Ableton for DJing. To each their own - and if you're going to diss bad DJs, diss them on their own demerits and not because of the technology that they're using.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Jul 20, 2011 18:50
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No, but when you can't tell that the guy has mixed and you can hear a seamless transition without relying on a computer crutch to do it, that's impressive... When I play other people's music I like to have respect for the person who made it and not layer a bunch of stuff on top of it that it doesn't need. If it needs a couple of layers, then I can start mixing parts of the next track on top of it. And my argument about Ableton djing can be put to a simple analogy that is happening in the world today.
Why learn math when you can google the answers?
And if you never rode a bike, then you can't actually operate a motorcycle because the basic concept of a bicycle teaches you about weight distribution and balance especially when turning. But that being said, if you drive with an automatic and then you are put into a situation where you HAVE to use a manual transmission, what are you gonna do? I like to beatmatch, and if I use software to mix, then I'll use software that allows me to use cd player or vinyl to manually adjust tracks. I can still play on 4 decks, I can still add effects or even do synth work if I felt so inclined, BUT I still get to beatmatch because that is still important to me. And if you can mix a flawless set, cool for you, but I'm gonna watch too and if you're not doing anything and it's kinda just happening on it's own, I'm not gonna be too interested in having you play for me.
I actually have a question though... if you warp a track and it sounds just a bit off, what do you do to correct it?
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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A.Rosengren
Solid Snake
Started Topics :
266
Posts :
4138
Posted : Jul 20, 2011 19:01
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I'm learning traktor, it's loads of fun! And personally I don't give a shit if someone plays you music using 2 forks 1 piece of tape and a bag of chips as long as he is making the floor bounce and putting smiles on people faces.
A
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Jul 20, 2011 19:07
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fair enough, I just come from a different view.. for instance, when I first started djing drum and bass I really was shitty at beatmatching, so I fade mixed. The first gig I got to play at a party (a house party at that) I fade mixed and I trainwrecked twice attempting to beat match and was blacklisted from playing for 6 months till I could prove I could mix. This made me care a lot more about learning the technical skills needed and also taught me about touch... These skills have helped me in many things even outside of djing...
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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