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BPM Counters

krelm
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  67
Posts :  648
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 14:56
Quote:

On 2004-08-17 12:43, zooter wrote:
i did NOT read all the views in this thread....but i quite frankly find it quite irritating that ppl want all things real hard! they don't accept changes that easily....why?



It has nothing to do with not accepting changes. I love to see better technology interacting with DJing. I like all that the CDJ1000 can do, creatively - check James Zabiela's new CD "Alive" for an example of how technology allows a DJ to completely de-construct and re-construct tracks into something totally new. I like the fact that Abelton Live software can completely change the face of digital DJing. A tool like Final Scratch that bridges the gap between physical DJing and digital DJing is great as well.

But my point is that a little and flawed tool like a BPM counter should not be used as a crutch by DJs since eventually they will have to get by without it at some gigs. I've seen this happen - a DJ only know how to beatmatch with a BPM counter, then they go to a gig where one is not available. Hello trainwreck city.

Something like a BPM counter is great to supplement or simplify beatmatching *after* the basic skills are learned, but they should never replace the basic skills themselves. Beatmatching by ear is very quick and easy to learn, and is a necessary skill to have - even if just as a backup when the BPM counter isn't available. Why be lazy and not learn it first? Just doesn't make sense.
          -----------------
Dr. Krelm DJ Mixes and Broken Symmetry archives - http://www.krelmatrix.com

Broken Symmetry on MCast - coming in 2007....
EYB
Noized

Started Topics :  111
Posts :  2849
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 15:24
'Just doesn't make sense.' maybe for you.

I learned a lot of mathematical functions last year, but i never learned to solve a root function without a calculator, coz it makes no sense to do it without.
I would need much more time to solve the hole problem.

peace            Signature
blueOrb
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  100
Posts :  1698
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 15:57

well all i can say is that why do u even really care........do u feel insecure??.......ok if some djs uses bpm counters to mix or beat match whats wrong with that.......i sometimes find it sad to see that most people think that djing is all about beat matching.....common its not just beat matching........

and before anyone attacks me......well iam not a dj......but yes i am learning......and iam sure ill get my beat matching too pretty soon.....iam already past half way.......theres more to being a dj than just beat matching...........

peace
          New mixes on
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Older Mixes on
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KakoOlalaJwal
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  116
Posts :  2565
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 17:19
Quote:

On 2004-08-17 15:57, psyk wrote:
theres more to being a dj than just beat matching...........




That's right !

The story telling and the dialogue with the crowd ! THESE are the magic words

As I said before : choosing the following track because the one currently spinning is 140 bpm pitched -1.4 by eargerly looking for a 138 bpm (written on the dj sleeve) is not a way of telling a story..

          .
.
"Get your dose of BoOgie !"

http://www.bunkum-records.com
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Zombi
IsraTrance Senior Member

Started Topics :  375
Posts :  5032
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 17:50
i dont need a bpm counter, but in case i play in party with cdj 1000 so i look at it for first big adoptation pitch move then on ear i make proper beatmatch,
clown - to know make proper beatmatch it is may be 20% of dj work, imo dj that realy proud that he can make a proper beatmatch just lame.
cheers.
          Believe your soul !
clown
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  97
Posts :  1777
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 18:12
Quote:

On 2004-08-17 10:09, helen wrote:

Clown, are you using CDJ or Vinils? if u use the first, then you are probably as lame as the DJs who use the BPM counters.




I use both.. Mainly cd's for psytrance and full-on, and vinyle for techno, breaks, electro and some techtrance..

Someone mentioned something about doing math with a calculator.. well, i think your example was bad.. because the calculator is the medium.. like the CD's or vinyle.. or the mixer.. but to have a cheat sheet under your calculator, that would be the BPM counter (IMPO)..

And my argument is that the new technology is "incorporating" this BPM counter in all that they produce.. as if it was the only way.. And that's the part i don't agree with.. look at the pioneer CMX 3000's (the rack mount).. find a way to turn that damn BPM counter off.. well what do you know, you can't.. how ironic.. maybe they feel that dj's are so horible these days that they need this tool to work..

And i agree that beatmatching is only 20% of Djing.. the rest is track selection, cueing your track at the right point, and letting your mix flow and create new music.

Also, maybe we don't even need dj's anymore.. lets just throw up a computer in parties with a winamp tracklist.. put an inflatable doll behind the computer, and voila.. Thats what you'd like right??

Its not about making things harder for the dj, its about being a dj.. Its just like actors that read off cards as apose to improvising and going with the flow. It just doesn't come out right.. (IMO)           "VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca
psypox
Psypox / Bufo

Started Topics :  53
Posts :  768
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 18:24
STATEMENT!!!!

clown : put a gum over the beat counter next time!

rest of you : use tehh shiiit!           www.myspace.com/psypox
krelm
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  67
Posts :  648
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 18:49
Quote:

On 2004-08-17 15:24, EYB wrote:
I learned a lot of mathematical functions last year, but i never learned to solve a root function without a calculator, coz it makes no sense to do it without.
I would need much more time to solve the hole problem.



Major difference between the two. One thing is something that *anybody* can learn with a month or two of practice. I've even heard of people learning how to beat match by ear within a few hours.

The other (solving root functions) is something which is generally beyond the ability of the normal human to solve precisely without "help" from the calculator - excluding the rare examples of savants.

Also, you can carry a powerful calculator in your pocket anywhere you go. But you aren't always able to guarantee having an accurate BPM counter available at a gig.

I don't have a problem with the existence of BPM counters or people using them. They definitely do make life easier. I have a problem with people depending on them because they were too lazy (or impatient) to learn how to beatmatch by ear.

Why?

What happens when the BPM counter magically isn't there? Emergency! Failure! Boots in the dryer - bad mixing, trainwrecks. Bleh. I don't like hearing that shit, especially if I have spent money to get into a party. It also hinders the dancefloor - at a party I attended last weekend, there was one DJ who couldn't mix worth a damn. Every mix was a horrible mess. The dancefloor was confused, people walked off - the reaction was generally bad. On the other hand, there was another DJ who mixed fairly well a few hours before. He kept the dancefloor rocking and was able to keep the energy strong.

Of course there is more to DJing than beatmatching. Sort of a no-duh point there. But it is still a simple, basic, and IMPORTANT skill that there really is no excuse to not learn - one of *many* skills that should be learned before potentially torturing the ears of the dancefloor. BPM counters are handy, but they are a flawed shortcut that is bound to fail at some point or other.

And seriously, why are people so afraid to learn a simple skill like beatmatching by ear? It is important to be prepared for *any* situation!!

My words on it.
          -----------------
Dr. Krelm DJ Mixes and Broken Symmetry archives - http://www.krelmatrix.com

Broken Symmetry on MCast - coming in 2007....
spannungsbogen
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  14
Posts :  71
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 18:49
Vince, if you're not using the BPM counter, why do you care it's there??? LOL hard not to look isn't


Ok i spin CD and Vynil's too(win a vynil contest 2 week's ago) And i like to have a BPM counter for the only reason that i know the speed of my current set. It's only for my personal pleasure, i'm always driving around 145 for Full On and 140 for prog. I just use it has a speed-o-meter.

I would never use it to make my beatmatch, i tried it a few time and seriously, the times it take to chek the BPM on a Deck his about the time it would have took me to Beatmatch my track with my ear. So it's useless since after i found out that track A is slower i would have to beatmatch it manually.

Sadly most full on track are 145... i even made a DJ set once with 7 out of 8 track at 0.0%... that was the borest set i ever made, sure ppl liked it but damn i was bored behind the deck...

Has for the calculator, it's useless since around 140-150 BPM, 1 BPM is around 0.7% on the pitch. So basicly if a track is slower you put it at +0.7, +1.4,+2.1 on and on until it's close then you adjust it to the precise beatmatch...


The thing that piss me off is a DJ who CAN'T CATCH is track when they start debeating...

DUDE the EQ arn't hiding you're train wreck, put it to -+0.2 for a few sec and regain control damn it!           http://www.spannungsbogen.com
For information, boooking and Demo
DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  70
Posts :  2299
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 18:52
Bah. BPM counters are more misleading than helpful. You can mix a lot faster and more accurately without them, usually.

Now if you get so irate over those, what do you think about Computer-Assisted mixing? hehe.. just input all the tracks, and Bam! out comes a perfect mix. kinda like playing a pre-mixed CD at a party, imo - pretty lame.

spannungsbogen
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  14
Posts :  71
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 18:55
Computer don't have the ability to put tracks in-time and don't know when to cut a specific EQ

A DJ using a computer could be really impressive if he would blend the track perfectly!

DJ ability:

Track Selection
Beatmatching
Keeping the beatmatch
Mixing track ON time
Ajusting EQ so there no overkill sound
Dancing so the crowd feel the grooves

and obviously, not taking the job too seriously...           http://www.spannungsbogen.com
For information, boooking and Demo
EYB
Noized

Started Topics :  111
Posts :  2849
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 19:15
Quote:

On 2004-08-17 18:52, DiMiTry wrote:
Bah. BPM counters are more misleading than helpful. You can mix a lot faster and more accurately without them, usually.

Now if you get so irate over those, what do you think about Computer-Assisted mixing? hehe.. just input all the tracks, and Bam! out comes a perfect mix. kinda like playing a pre-mixed CD at a party, imo - pretty lame.





Lame or not lame?
Lame is wanna be the cool dj!

We made a lot of great partys only with a computer, a dj program and a lot of mp3s.

Anyone could go to pc and play some songs no need for a 'wanna be cool' dj.

peace            Signature
DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  70
Posts :  2299
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 19:25
EYB - it's not about "cool DJ" - it's about people who know the music and know how to put it together and make people experience deeper things than they otherwise would.

you can queue up tracks in a computer, but you will never make a good party that way - maybe with you and 5 friends, but not a lot of people. because anybody can do it at home - people go out to hear the dj play because good dj's can take you places a pre-programmed computer never will.

peace
EYB
Noized

Started Topics :  111
Posts :  2849
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 20:13
Quote:

On 2004-08-17 19:25, DiMiTry wrote:
EYB - it's not about "cool DJ" - it's about people who know the music and know how to put it together and make people experience deeper things than they otherwise would.

you can queue up tracks in a computer, but you will never make a good party that way - maybe with you and 5 friends, but not a lot of people. because anybody can do it at home - people go out to hear the dj play because good dj's can take you places a pre-programmed computer never will.

peace



LOL no good party this way! Big laughing about that comment!

Maybe no poser commercial party, but we rock the underground dude.

This are the most phreaky and powerful energy partys around and i think u never (maybe i am wrong) rocked such a party with about hundret friends and family people in the dark forest for some days.

If you did you should know that the community plays the music that it needs, a dj a pc or some freaks with they bongos and didges.

peace            Signature
clown
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  97
Posts :  1777
Posted : Aug 17, 2004 20:53
Krelm said it best.. even better than me, because he's less agressive than i am.. hehehe..

Maybe you can have fun in your underground parties with 100 people, spinning your MP3's, but im talking about proffessional usage here.. when you play at a REAL party, with people that expect things out of there dj's and artists.. a place where dj's that play Mp3's are banned.

But whatever, maybe you are right.. im guessing people that like bpm counters to mix music are one's that use cheats or walkthroughs in videogames.. Yeah, its just as fun to play Final Fantasy games with the walkthrough, but what have you accomplished?? your only lying to yourself..

What really gets to me, are the one's that use the BPM counter, then deny the whole thing to take credit for there "skillz"..           "VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca
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