Mike A
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 10:35
Quote:
On 2011-02-09 00:05, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
it is not only important to know that heavy water has different physical properties than light water H2O , like freezing and boiling point, but it is important to know that it is the " only known chemical substance that affects the period of circadian oscillations, consistently increasing the length of each cycle". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm this is the 24-hour cycle in biochemical, physiological, or behavioural processes.
True. Everything is correct. I have to note something though - I've actually read the article which says this is increasing the circadian cycle:
http://www.pnas.org/content/70/7/2037.abstract Seems like there is very minor increase in duration when it's increased to tens of percents, in flies. This is an old article and I'm sure more experiments have been made since then, on more types of organisms, but it doesn't change the fact that yuo need like 40% of Deuterium in order to see in increase. The concentration of D2O in regular water in measured in ppms. That's part per million. Much much less than anything they reported in their experiment.
Quote:
nowadays science knows more than 150 isotopes of water and 200 of ice, may be even more today, i am not an expert on that.
What you just said that shows that you have very little knowledge of science.
First of all, there is no such thing as "isotope of water". An isotope can only be "of" an element, such as hydrogen or oxygen.
The three isotopes of H are H, D and T. T has a half life of several years so I will consider it stable for out discussion (even though you don't want to be near it since it will give you cancer). Three stable of isotopes of oxygen (16, 17, 18). The rest have half lives of seconds or less so they are irrelevant.
Chemical structure of water is XYX, hydrogen goes to X, O goes to Y. Most common is H16H.
All combinations are: 3 times 3 times 3, 27 total combinations. Since water belongs to the C2v symmetry group, DOH is he same as HOD so there are even less than 27. So assuming that you meant this instead of "isotopes of water", there are definitely not 150 and not 200.
Since ice and water is the same thing, it can not have a different number of "isotopes". You do not change the nuclear structure of water by freezing or melting it.
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there is a scientist from the russian academy of science , called stanislav zenin.
No there isn't:
Your search - stanislav zenin site:ras.ru - did not match any documents. Googling his name only gives metaphysical sites and sites selling devices for detoxifying water. Just another proof that this is all a scam (read my first post here about Glen Rein).
Quote:
i assume
Do you? Prove please.
To summarize, you mentioned here some real science, which has nothing to do with metaphysics. You also mentioned some bad science which I corrected, but it still has nothing to do with metaphysics. Then you mentioned some guy who tries to sell (non working I assume) devices for detoxifying water, based on bad science.
mk47
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 10:58
mattman
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 11:25
I'm surprised by the sobriety of some of the posters in this thread, I love the emphasis on the scientific method - and one will just have to deal with the strict materialism of the attached arguments.
I have no experience in hard sciences, but I've been in the university loop for humanities for almost 5 years now. My contribution to this discussion - from that perspective - is that the people pushing the frontier of science today such as in quantum physics and astrophysics develop their own kind of fascination and, if you will, spiritualism in their fields of study.
To put it bluntly, they have transcended the first level - the "all form, no content" spirituality, the second level - the "strict materialism", which is the idea that empiric data governs us completely, and locate themselves on a third level (that takes nothing away from the previous two) which is a state of mind that dwells in dialectics and 'wonder', in lack of a better word.
So, knowing that those kinds of people are really the muscle behind "science" today, we can all rest easy that knowledge and understanding isn't at all run by silent grey people in lab coats. We see these great people on TED.com from time to time, although there are people outside the hard sciences there too, of course.
By the way, don't hold your breath for a quantum biology. Physics govern sciences such as biology and chemistry as an understanding of all subordinate processes.
As for frequencies resonating with our physical worlds, - sure! But it only gets remotely interesting once the great thinkers dabble in its understanding. Otherwise we can often find ourselves left with fifteen penis pumps and a pack of cigarettes.
Oh and I totally dig the first video here. So awesome.
Goa Goa-trance & Psytrance parties in Oslo, Norway:
moki
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 13:53
Quote:
On 2011-02-09 10:35, Mike A wrote:
Quote:
there is a scientist from the russian academy of science , called stanislav zenin.
No there isn't:
Your search - stanislav zenin site:ras.ru - did not match any documents. Googling his name only gives metaphysical sites and sites selling devices for detoxifying water. Just another proof that this is all a scam (read my first post here about Glen Rein).
well, i guess the only thing that can help here is to give you the source of my investigation. it is a book called the harmony of chaos, written by russian authors tihoplav and tihoplav in 2003 in russian. i have searched for a translation in german to give to some friends and i know that there is no translation of that. i would give you a link as well if i knew about any.
at page 116 it is written and explained that there are 150 different isotopes of water and 200 of ice ( or different isotope varieties).
but i hope you realize that your argument about me not knowing anything about science because of quoting that, will not at all be able to give me any new argumentational hint and i will not change my opinion and direction because of this statement. although you are right, i am much more a mathemtician and not a scientist. but i trust an author or two if he is able to explain to me with the language of mathematics what he is doing. especially if he talks about statistics and his experimental observation.
may be you have more luck to find information about a scientifical group from berkeley california, that also found out a very interesting steady cluster structure in the water that was very similar to the bodies of plato. it is mentioned in the same book.
about stanislav zenim, i guess it is now time for you to find other scientists from russia to tell you more about their search in the internet on that name. he is a doctor in biology.
to summerize, you have some great arguments and lots of knowledge but i stuck sometimes in bad argumentation that whatever you dont know, cannot be real and true and it must be due to the conversation partner that he is not well informed enough.
i will ask one more thing. about this japanese guy experimenting with sound and water structure. i am really very interested to know why do you think he is not correct or not serious or whatsoever. really. but from your perspective. you are right about the problem with reproduction in science, which is the first great challenge for science in the field of hexagonal water. the problem is that you never have two times the same picture of the structure in the water, as well as you never have two times the same snowflake. this makes the scientifical prove, as you know, impossible, at least what the reproduction of experiments is concerned. but still, it is there, it can be seen so clearly under microscope that the water has sometimes hexagonal structure and sometimes not. what bothers you so much about masaru emoto and where do you think he is wrong and unserios?
Mike A
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 14:38
Quote:
On 2011-02-09 13:53, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
at page 116 it is written and explained that there are 150 different isotopes of water and 200 of ice ( or different isotope varieties).
may be you have more luck to find information about a scientifical group from berkeley california, that also found out a very interesting steady cluster structure in the water that was very similar to the bodies of plato. it is mentioned in the same book.
Please give me names, since berkeley is a huge institution and I don't want to waste time trying to find a single article from the hundreds they publish.
There are structures. When you dissolve anything in water (salt, NaCl is a good example) the water molecule surround the sodium nd chloride ions in an octahedral shape.
There are more complexes of other metals (such as nickel if I remember correctly) in which the water molecules surround the ions in a tetrahedral shape. Both the octahedral and tetrahedral are platonic shapes, as we all know.
Water molecules also arrange themselves in clusters without any ions as well, and these shapes are frequently one of the Platonic shapes. Does it mean that Plato somehow magically prophetized the structure of water? No. Those shapes have mathematical "beauty" of symmetry and stuff, and many pattens in nature are organized in this way. The metal atoms in the knife you cut your food with are sometimes hexagonal, the calcium phosphate in your teeth is hexagonal, and snowflakes are hexagonal. Does it mean that it's all magically connected? No. It just means that all those shapes are a result of mathematical rules. But, there is no such thing as hexagonal water. Octahedrons and tetrahedrons are three dimensional shapes. Hexagons are only two dimensional. Water molecules arrange themselves in three dimensional shapes, not two. Even if it happens to be hexagonal, this will be short lived and it will happen in every water, not just water run through a special detoxifying machine or water from a spring in a holy monastery in Japan. The shapes will also constantly morph and change form because it's a liquid. If it wouldn't change, it would be ice. The structure of ice is widely studied, and it doesn't have any magical hexagonal structure.
Quote:
but i hope you realize that your argument about me not knowing anything about science because of quoting that, will not at all be able to give me any new argumentational hint and i will not change my opinion and direction because of this statement. although you are right, i am much more a mathemtician and not a scientist. but i trust an author or two if he is able to explain to me with the language of mathematics what he is doing. especially if he talks about statistics and his experimental observation.
I am trying to educate you (and other readers of this thread). This is why I'm giving links and lengthfully explaining the real science.
I could just say "haha you know nothing" and that's it, but I don't.
Quote:
to summerize, you have some great arguments and lots of knowledge but i stuck sometimes in bad argumentation that whatever you dont know, cannot be real and true and it must be due to the conversation partner that he is not well informed enough.
I'm not saying that what I don't know can't be real. I'm just saying I want proof. And websites that sell products which are based on that "bad science" invented by non existing people is not proof.
Quote:
the problem is that you never have two times the same picture of the structure in the water, as well as you never have two times the same snowflake. this makes the scientifical prove, as you know, impossible, at least what the reproduction of experiments is concerned. but still, it is there, it can be seen so clearly under microscope that the water has sometimes hexagonal structure and sometimes not. what bothers you so much about masaru emoto and where do you think he is wrong and unserios?
I explained about water structure earlier.
About his "photos".
Photos of what are these?
The "negative photos" he has looks like regular photos of water drops under some magnification, colored to nasty colors.
You can NOT see the internal structure of water in those photos. To see atoms and molecules you need stronger microscopes, and as far as I know you need your sample to be a solid, not a liquid. I could be wrong though. Anyway, the photos mean nothing.
The "positive photos" look like snowflakes. That's ice, not water. Same magnification like the "negative" ones. And yes - snowflakes are hexagonal (as seen in the macro). Anyway, this is NOT liquid water.
The claim that the transition between those "states" is caused by talking to the water is ridiculous. Since the "positive" photos are of ice, I understand that mr. professor took water, talked to it and it froze to snowflakes. You can test that for yourself. Nothing too high tech needed.
Snowflakes have been hexagonal even before human life evolved on earth, and actually before any life evolved on earth. It's hexagonal also on other plants, far away from any people.
To summarize, all of this is mixing of real science together with pseudoscience. It makes it hard for the non scientist to distinguish the truth from the bullshit and I understand why a lot of people fall for it (and then buy the crap they sell), but it doesn't mean it's any true.
Pavel
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 14:42
Mile A by 3rd round KO.
Seriously Moki and Minus, it's ok to admit you were wrong. Everybody makes mistakes some times.
Everyone in the world is doing something without me
Nectarios
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 14:42
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 16:06
The truth is just the latest lie that hasn't been discovered to be a lie yet
moki
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 16:57
Quote:
I explained about water structure earlier.
About his "photos".
Photos of what are these?
The "negative photos" he has looks like regular photos of water drops under some magnification, colored to nasty colors.
You can NOT see the internal structure of water in those photos. To see atoms and molecules you need stronger microscopes, and as far as I know you need your sample to be a solid, not a liquid. I could be wrong though. Anyway, the photos mean nothing.
well, lets put it like this. i completely disagree with your statement that the photos mean nothing. and although i agree with the scientific community, that some major changes in the scientific methods of masaru emoto are needed, i totally disagree that the photos mean nothing. they do mean that SOUND CAN AFFECT WATER!
you ask, photos of what are these. the method is very simple : 0.5 mL samples of liquid water from a specific sample are placed on 100 petri dishes that are then frozen and stored at a temperature of -25°C for three hours in a freezer. then he removes the sample from the freezer and observes it under a microscope with a camera in a room with a temperature of -5°C . a photo of the crystal is taken. and yes, the magnification of the electron microscope is quite low in his experiments, 100-200 times . consider that there is magnification up to 1 000 000 in some microscopes. as far as i know and as far as the internet is telling me. and nevertheless, are you trying to tell me that an experiment with a microscope with low magnification that is leading us to clear observations in terms of statistics are not scientific enough??? i guess no, arent you? it is clear that the photos can be arranged in groups of clear hexagonal structures and more chaotic structures that are not hexagonal . so a real scientist would ask himself why are the photos different from each other and is there a method to explain the defference and to divide the process in different cause-effect groups. there must be a reason for this difference. there must be a different impact of sound (note that he is not only experimenting with thought but also with sound ) on water.
and yes there are some scientific principles which are critical in the work of emoto. for example the bias ot the experimentator, the possible errors in the procedure such as the temperature and humidity on different days of observation, incl. even the breath of the experimentator. and most important i have seen hundreds of photos of water crystals but not all of them and i guess i see only those that support the thesis which is not scientific method. and still, i am sure that there is a very important meaning in what he presents. we are far from a complete scientific prove but we are in the right direction.
i dont believe in this frequency in the topic. i think it is much more complex than that. but still, i think this is not off topic because it is the very basic of it. HOW DOES SOUND AFFECT DNA.
about the other thing with the isotopes, i am actually aware about what common science says about isotopes. but wouldn'T it be possible that these isotopes build 200 different variations that are observed in nature???
as far as the names, i dont see any in the book. it explains about a goup of scientists with a source which is another book in russian called the secret of life by zailer , page 40. ( or seiler, i dont know the latin letters for the name). but i guess you are the one to have access to all books and libraries.
Cardinals Cartel
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 16:59
Thank you water ..
Psytones .. We already heard about Mr. Emoto and his blessed water when he visit in israel few months ago ..
He can fool the world but here theres scientists thats abolish this theory from the base . I also read somwhere in
the israeli net news sites that this Mr. Emoto is not a Dr. At all and he buy his license somewhere in an unknown
university that he dont want to tell where and in all his interviews all over the world he evade and refuse to answer
on this simple question .
So .. judge yourself ..
Pt.
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 17:53
I don’t have a good selections of words for what I want to say, but I will think –apology- is close to what I mean, I guess I didn’t put much though in to this before presenting this in public… but I hope this doesn’t ruin it for the rest.
And I hope that for those interested in this subject and any other of similar nature, don’t feel discouraged by the debunking… remember most of the facts today have been debunked by others in the past, but if I can present a suggestion, there are some steps that can help get closer to understanding many subjects.
The popular scientific method:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml
Mike A
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 17:56
Let's go again...
Quote:
about the other thing with the isotopes, i am actually aware about what common science says about isotopes.
You keep talking about statistics. Probability theory is the basis of statistics. A very fundamental exercise in probability is determining the number of possibilies you can combine stuff.
So we have 3 slots (3 atoms in water), each having 3 different isotopes possible.
That's 3 times 3 times 3 = 27.
So for your question:
Quote:
but wouldn'T it be possible that these isotopes build 200 different variations that are observed in nature???
No.
Next:
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and yes, the magnification of the electron microscope is quite low in his experiments, 100-200 times . consider that there is magnification up to 1 000 000 in some microscopes. as far as i know and as far as the internet is telling me. and nevertheless, are you trying to tell me that an experiment with a microscope with low magnification that is leading us to clear observations in terms of statistics are not scientific enough???
DNA is molecular sized. If water will affect it in any special way, the structures should be molecular as well. Yet, the photos are weak magnification.
It's like taking a satellite photo of a large area, seeing that it's mostly flat and then saying it's easy to walk on. Then, you try to walk and you see lots of hard stones which are difficult. So I guess it wasn't so, after all. Same is here.
I googled for a picture of hexagonal water. It looks like this:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Health_Concerns/hexa-water.gif Obviously wrong. They got the polarity bonds wrong. The positive part of the water is attracted to another positive part? wtf?
Quote:
and although i agree with the scientific community, that some major changes in the scientific methods of masaru emoto are needed
Indeed. Let's look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto First of all, his formal education is in International Relations. Not related to science. Then he became a doctor in alternative medicine (which some work, some not, some pseudowork). I wouldn't call him a scientist yet.
A quote:
Quote:
Emoto freely acknowledges that he is not a scientist, and that photographers are instructed to select the most pleasing photographs.
Ok.
In his "triple-blind" test which should be the most accurate he could not recreate his results.
So why is Mr. Emoto lying to us?
Here is why:
Quote:
Emoto claims to have sold 2 million copies of his books.
...
In addition to his books, Emoto also sells various water products from his websites and catalogs, which are purported to have healing properties derived from his research and experiments.
Reminds me of Glen Rein from earlier in this thread.
Google for "hexagonal water" (bad science).
You see lots of products selling devices for cleaning water and stuff like that.
Google for "isotopes of oxygen" (real science).
No one is trying to sell you anything! Websites of universities and nasa come up.
BUT! There is still hope for you. I'll quote a paragraph from a website that debunks this:
Quote:
Will water that is "clustered" or altered in structure make me feel better, younger, more vigorous, etc.?
Very likely, yes! Studies have shown that placebos can relieve the symptoms in about 40 percent of those who suffer from chronic ailments. They are probably even more effective for those who are inclined toward "alternative medicine" or the "wellness" industry. In other words, if you "believe" that something might help, it may well do so, and the more people are made to pay for it, the more eager they will be to have their beliefs confirmed.
So the regular people buy this crap, believe it will help them and it does help to some degree (as much as mentally possible), and Mr. Emoto gets rich for selling you stuff that doesn't work.
willsanquil
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 18:48
You keep winning this thread over and over. I love it. Especially the Emoto parts, as all the super hippies LOVE to talk about the water stuff...even though its been very widely debunked. No need to look into things and see if they're actually true if they sound appealing to you
Cardinals Cartel
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 19:06
And dont get me wrong .. I like Mr. Emoto and peoples like him very much .. Not because of his water legends but because of the way
he have found to get all those millions from an innocent peoples without steal (And i dont think he lie , This is what he belief and for me
its fine) We have to appreciate him for that .
Well .. The night is come .. Ill go outside to smoke a cigarette and to talk with the moon and the stars ..
I want my cat be the president of france ....
moki
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Posted : Feb 9, 2011 19:15
Mike A,
even without chemistry i see immediately that the theory of probability you suggest cannot be true. silly question, what if one isotope connects to the second isotope, what happens then? for example what happens if i have some isotopes or heavy water in my body together with light water - then it would depend completely on the quantity what variation i have. for example one molecule of heavy water together with 56 of light water. whatever. i am not persuaded at all. alone by means of mathematics this theory cannot be complete.
i dont accept the comparison with the satellite photo either. because what we have here are hundreds of satellite photos which are not the same but different from each other - and i can clearly see 30 of them look red, 40 look blue and other 30 are mixed. i will definitely know more about the surface of what i am observing according to what colour the photo has. it is my logic and i am a person who is only interested in logic and not at all in what the majority of people or scientists might say. i assume a very very high possibility of mass consciousness and people who have forgotten to ask questions but just repeat what others said.
but also here, whatever. i suppose you are one of those students who dont ask much during a lecture but know exactly what the prof said and wrote in a couple of books. it is great and it might help you to a great carrier with a great big car and a villa in california and you will be a great scientist with a big name, but it is not what i am looking for so i will concentrate on the more important things. btw another thing that i want to mention is that europe and in particular germany had vaaaaast knowledge of the qualities of water during the world war but most of it belongs forbidden now. for example schauberger has some absolutely mind blowing investigations about water and cancer but he became too dangerous at some point.
whatever, greets and keep your mind open for new ideas.
