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Yet another 432hz thread
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Oct 25, 2013 16:58
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In any case, I will make a 432 just for the hell of it, see how I like it. See if its worth doing more.
Need to listen to this stoned off me tits to decide for sure as I had to be straight all day to find what off sets I needed to have on the Virus and the Nord to match the 432hz tuning in Logic.
 
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Taisto
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
252
Posted : Oct 25, 2013 17:06
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Oho, yeas you are right, there is another part different already.. ( first you have to finish the loop i guess  )
But yeah, 440 feels faster and seems rushing things while 432 is 'taking its time' and feels more clear.. easier to focus i think.
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jekvan
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
Posts :
406
Posted : Oct 25, 2013 17:42
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Quote:
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On 2013-10-25 15:43, frisbeehead wrote:
I think it sounds better here! (and don't think it will matter for djs, since anything is heavily repitched anyways, so it would take an audiophile with super ears to be able to say "hmmm... this sounds slightly out of tune...")
will try to adjust the tunning in the settings as you say and will let you know what I think. have you tried to compare this to a simple "varispeed", pitching it down to 432Hz?
by simply pitching a track (like what happens on most dj sets anyways), the notes we played will go up or down, but the whole thing will, and that means that the harmonic balance between the elements will remain the same and, therefore, to my mind, the harmonic intervals between the elements will to.
tunning is something different, specially when we do it on the instruments themselves, mainly because "note lengths remain the same", so there's no actual time-stretching but just the scale has slightly been pitched down, not the frequency content of an entire piece, right?
never even crossed my mind that Logic would do this just by editting one option...
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Nope.Transposing entire track will make stuff sound weird.
Simple example:Record two sounds.Lets say C2, and D2.Let's say,respectively,first one frequency is 65.4 Hz,second one is 73.41 Hz.
The distance between C2 and D2 is 2*sqr(2,12).That is the way the tuning system of today is (12-TET).
Pitch that record down.
By doing that,you pitch down the first,and second sound by exactly the same amount.If for example ,you pitch down one sound 8 Hz,the other goes down 8 Hz.
Now,simple math: if A/B=2*sqr(2,12)
A-8)/(B-8)=/=sqr(2,12).
The ratio is no longer there.If you pitch down track,you pitch all the notes at the same time,and when before they had ratio,when you add the same value to both ,they do not have the same ratio anymore.
In case of small changes,you probably ain't gonna notice it so much.
From all the things I lost,that sandwitch cost me most :)
http://soundcloud.com/jekvan |
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Oct 25, 2013 18:10
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i prefer it for guitar, but i think it's just cos i like hippie bollocks and the idea of going back to an older tuning standard, and the strings are quite a bit looser (i play with 12s on my electric cos i like the sound and feel and chugga chugga they give), and so it is easier to play.
is the hippie theory that the harmonics are better inter-related when changing keys? i don't really get that. i get just intonation, totally, but then you can't change keys without it sounding shit.
http://hermetechmastering.com : http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gregg+Janman : http://soundcloud.com/babaluma |
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jekvan
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
Posts :
406
Posted : Oct 25, 2013 18:29
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 25, 2013 19:03
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Quote:
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On 2013-10-25 17:42, jekvan wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-10-25 15:43, frisbeehead wrote:
I think it sounds better here! (and don't think it will matter for djs, since anything is heavily repitched anyways, so it would take an audiophile with super ears to be able to say "hmmm... this sounds slightly out of tune...")
will try to adjust the tunning in the settings as you say and will let you know what I think. have you tried to compare this to a simple "varispeed", pitching it down to 432Hz?
by simply pitching a track (like what happens on most dj sets anyways), the notes we played will go up or down, but the whole thing will, and that means that the harmonic balance between the elements will remain the same and, therefore, to my mind, the harmonic intervals between the elements will to.
tunning is something different, specially when we do it on the instruments themselves, mainly because "note lengths remain the same", so there's no actual time-stretching but just the scale has slightly been pitched down, not the frequency content of an entire piece, right?
never even crossed my mind that Logic would do this just by editting one option...
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Nope.Transposing entire track will make stuff sound weird.
Simple example:Record two sounds.Lets say C2, and D2.Let's say,respectively,first one frequency is 65.4 Hz,second one is 73.41 Hz.
The distance between C2 and D2 is 2*sqr(2,12).That is the way the tuning system of today is (12-TET).
Pitch that record down.
By doing that,you pitch down the first,and second sound by exactly the same amount.If for example ,you pitch down one sound 8 Hz,the other goes down 8 Hz.
Now,simple math: if A/B=2*sqr(2,12)
A-8)/(B-8)=/=sqr(2,12).
The ratio is no longer there.If you pitch down track,you pitch all the notes at the same time,and when before they had ratio,when you add the same value to both ,they do not have the same ratio anymore.
In case of small changes,you probably ain't gonna notice it so much.
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I know, but the harmonic balance between sounds will remain the same just transposed, but compressed or stretched in proportion - that's when the ratio gets altered.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1470304/timeandtimeagain.wav
vs
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1470304/timeandtimeagain432hz.mp3
(minor volume difference between the two, this isn't meant to be a scientific test anyways)
I seem to like the second better to even though there isn't much discernable pitch information here (yet, just what was open here really...)
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 10:43
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most synths have a mastertune section nowadays. for you blofeld users you just need to go to global -> mastertune.
so, here´s an example i made in 5 minutes, not that nice, but rare ^^
i made a simple D# phrygian pattern in zebra, feel free to judge yourself.
i think the files should be labeled, sorry if i missed. zebra2 is 440hz n zebra3 432hz (exept few decimal cents).
http://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/t4c3JHGlNOiAX%2Fo6cnsabA
naaah, found i switched off the arp in the first one, never mind, shouldnt be an issue. i can upload again for sure, but it should not effect the result.
i think its just a feeling occuring in those clips. it should be very clear if you got two tracks to compare. just write a track, keep it midi and record two versions of it. you´ll be surprised i guess!
cheers
FUCK GENRES, LOVE MUSIC!!!!
http://soundcloud.com/mandarimedia
http://banyan-records.com |
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 12:39
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 14:08
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Quote:
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On 2013-10-26 12:39, Babaluma wrote:
so, what exact differences are people noticing when changing global tuning from 440 to 432, apart from the obvious drop in pitch?
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That's about it! While the bpm obviously remains the same, there's a more laid back feeling to it.
Will certainly make tests with melodic stuff once I get back home, since it's hard to judge on the elements with highly modulated FM leads like I have there, besides the low end, which was what I liked best, in all examples posted here.
On youtube there's some videos with non electronic music where you can definitely tell a difference. |
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 19:45
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Then it's completely arbitrary, right? Then why not drop it to 417, or 400, or 12 (joke)?
There are some strange claims made for it on websites, which I've never really understood.
With Just Intonation, it's easy to understand that, whilst remaining within one key, all the notes are perfect whole number ratios of the Tonic, and it's VERY easy to hear a difference from regular Equal Temperament.
But this 432 thing seems to have a lot of claims made for it that don't stand up to logical analysis. I love it, as I said earlier, for being historical, and for the fact that it makes my guitar easier to play, but that's about it.
http://hermetechmastering.com : http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gregg+Janman : http://soundcloud.com/babaluma |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
Posts :
3394
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 22:00
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
Posts :
3394
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 22:01
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History of pitch standards in Western music[edit]
Historically, various standards have been used to fix the pitch of notes at certain frequencies.[1] Various systems of musical tuning have also been used to determine the relative frequency of notes in a scale.
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
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3394
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 22:01
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Pre-19th century[edit]
Until the 19th century there was no concerted effort to standardize musical pitch, and the levels across Europe varied widely. Pitches did not just vary from place to place, or over time—pitch levels could vary even within the same city. The pitch used for an English cathedral organ in the 17th century, for example, could be as much as five semitones lower than that used for a domestic keyboard instrument in the same city.
Even within one church, the pitch used could vary over time because of the way organs were tuned. Generally, the end of an organ pipe would be hammered inwards to a cone, or flared outwards, to raise or lower the pitch. When the pipe ends became frayed by this constant process they were all trimmed down, thus raising the overall pitch of the organ.
Some idea of the variance in pitches can be gained by examining old pitchpipes, organ pipes and other sources. For example, an English pitchpipe from 1720[2] plays the A above middle C at 380 Hz, (info) while the organs played by Johann Sebastian Bach in Hamburg, Leipzig and Weimar were pitched at A = 480 Hz, (info) a difference of around four semitones. In other words, the A produced by the 1720 pitchpipe would have been at the same frequency as the F on one of Bach's organs.
From the early 18th century, pitch could be also controlled with the use of tuning forks (invented in 1711), although again there was variation. For example, a tuning fork associated with Handel, dating from 1740, is pitched at A = 422.5 Hz, (info) while a later one from 1780 is pitched at A = 409 Hz, (info) almost a semitone lower.[2] Overall, there was a tendency towards the end of the 18th century for the frequency of the A above middle C to be in the range of 400 (info) to 450 Hz. (info)
The frequencies quoted here are based on modern measurements and would not have been precisely known to musicians of the day. Although Mersenne had made a rough determination of sound frequencies as early as the 17th century, such measurements did not become scientifically accurate until the 19th century, beginning with the work of German physicist Johann Scheibler in the 1830s. The unit hertz (Hz), replacing cycles per second (cps), was not introduced until the 20th century.
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
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Posted : Oct 26, 2013 22:02
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Pitch inflation[edit]
During historical periods when instrumental music rose in prominence (relative to the voice), there was a continuous tendency for pitch levels to rise. This "pitch inflation" seemed largely a product of instrumentalists' competing with each other, each attempting to produce a brighter, more "brilliant", sound than that of their rivals. (In string instruments, this is not all acoustic illusion: when tuned up, they actually sound objectively brighter because the higher string tension results in larger amplitudes for the harmonics.) This tendency was also prevalent with wind instrument manufacturers, who crafted their instruments to play generally at a higher pitch than those made by the same craftsmen years earlier.[citation needed]
On at least two occasions, pitch inflation had become so severe that reform became needed. At the beginning of the 17th century, Michael Praetorius reported in his encyclopedic Syntagma musicum that pitch levels had become so high that singers were experiencing severe throat strain and lutenists and viol players were complaining of snapped strings. The standard voice ranges he cites show that the pitch level of his time, at least in the part of Germany where he lived, was at least a minor third higher than today's. Solutions to this problem were sporadic and local, but generally involved the establishment of separate standards for voice and organ ("Chorton") and for chamber ensembles ("Kammerton"). Where the two were combined, as for example in a cantata, the singers and instrumentalists might perform from music written in different keys. This system kept pitch inflation at bay for some two centuries.[3]
The advent of the orchestra as an independent (as opposed to accompanying) ensemble brought pitch inflation to the fore again. The rise in pitch at this time can be seen reflected in tuning forks. An 1815 tuning fork from the Dresden opera house gives A = 423.2 Hz (info),[2] while one of eleven years later from the same opera house gives A = 435 Hz (info). At La Scala in Milan, the A above middle C rose as high as 451 Hz (info).[2]
19th and 20th century standards[edit]
The most vocal opponents of the upward tendency in pitch were singers, who complained that it was putting a strain on their voices. Largely due to their protests, the French government passed a law on February 16, 1859 which set the A above middle C at 435 Hz.[2] This was the first attempt to standardize pitch on such a scale, and was known as the diapason normal. It became quite a popular pitch standard outside France as well, and has also been known at various times as French pitch, continental pitch or international pitch (the last of these not to be confused with the 1939 "international standard pitch" described below).
The diapason normal resulted in middle C being tuned at approximately 258.65 Hz (info). An alternative pitch standard known as philosophical or scientific pitch, fixed middle C at 256 Hz (info) (that is, 28 Hz), which resulted in the A above it being approximately 430.54 Hz (info). The appeal of this system was its mathematical idealism (the frequencies of all the Cs being powers of two).[4] This system never received the same official recognition as the French A = 435 Hz and was not widely used. In recent years, this tuning has been revived, sometimes as 432 Hz under the name "Verdi tuning" since Italian composer Giuseppe Verdi had proposed a slight lowering of the French tuning system.[5]
British attempts at standardisation in the 19th century gave rise to the old philharmonic pitch standard of about A = 452 Hz (different sources quote slightly different values), replaced in 1896 by the considerably "deflated" new philharmonic pitch at A = 439 Hz.[2] The high pitch was maintained by Sir Michael Costa for the Crystal Palace Handel Festivals, causing the withdrawal of the principal tenor Sims Reeves in 1877,[6] though at singers' insistence the Birmingham Festival pitch was lowered (and the organ retuned) at that time. At the Queen's Hall in London, the establishment of the diapason normal for the Promenade Concerts in 1895 (and retuning of the organ to A = 439 at 15 °C (59 °F), to be in tune with A = 435.5 in a heated hall) caused the Royal Philharmonic Society and others (including the Bach Choir, and the Felix Mottl and Artur Nikisch concerts) to adopt the continental pitch thereafter.[7]
In England the term "low pitch" was used from 1896 onward to refer to the new Philharmonic Society tuning standard of A = 439 Hz at 68° F, while "high pitch" was used for the older tuning of A = 452.4 Hz at 60° F. Although the larger London orchestras were quick to conform to the new, low pitch, provincial orchestras continued using the high pitch until at least the 1920s, and most brass bands were still using the high pitch in the mid-1960s.[8]
The Stuttgart Conference of 1834 recommended C264 (A440) as the standard pitch based on Scheibler's studies with his Tonometer.[9] For this reason A440 has been referred to as Stuttgart pitch or Scheibler pitch.
In 1939, an international conference[10] recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz, now known as concert pitch. As a technical standard this was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 and reaffirmed by them in 1975 as ISO 16. The difference between this and the diapason normal is due to confusion over the temperature at which the French standard should be measured. The initial standard was A = 439 Hz (info), but this was superseded by A = 440 Hz after complaints that 439 Hz was difficult to reproduce in a laboratory because 439 is a prime number.[10]
Current concert pitches[edit]
Despite such confusion, A = 440 Hz is the only official standard and is widely used around the world. Many orchestras in the United Kingdom adhere to this standard as concert pitch.[11] In the United States some orchestras use A = 440 Hz, while others, such as New York Philharmonic and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, use A = 442 Hz.[12] The latter is also often used as tuning frequency in Europe,[2] especially in Denmark, France, Hungary, Italy, Norway and Switzerland.[13] Nearly all modern symphony orchestras in Germany and Austria and many in other countries in continental Europe (such as Russia, Sweden and Spain) tune to A = 443 Hz.[14][15]
In practice the orchestras tune to a note given out by the oboe, and many oboists use an electronic tuning device. When playing with fixed-pitch instruments such as the piano, the orchestra will generally tune to them—a piano will normally have been tuned to the orchestra's normal pitch. Overall, it is thought that the general trend since the middle of the 20th century has been for standard pitch to rise, though it has been rising far more slowly than it has in the past. Some orchestras like the Berliner Philharmoniker now use a slightly lower pitch (443 Hz) than their highest previous standard (445 Hz).[16][2]
Many modern ensembles which specialize in the performance of Baroque music have agreed on a standard of A = 415 Hz.[2] An exact equal-tempered semitone lower than A = 440 would be 440/21/12 = 415.3047 Hz; this is rounded to the nearest integer. In principle this allows for playing along with modern fixed-pitch instruments if their parts are transposed down a semitone. It is, however, common performance practice, especially in the German Baroque idiom, to tune certain works to Chorton, approximately a semitone higher than A-440 (460–470 Hz) (e.g., Pre-Leipzig period cantatas of Bach).[17]
In the realm of popular music electronic keyboards (those, that is, whose tuning cannot be adjusted which includes almost all the cheaper ones for home use) are still tuned to the A=440 Hz standard in the 2nd decade of the 21st century. Electronic tuners for guitar or bass incorporated into guitar or bass amplifiers (such as those incorporated into some of the amplifiers of the Roland CUBE series) also use a fixed A=440 Hz tuning with no possibility for adjustment.
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
Posts :
3394
Posted : Oct 26, 2013 22:02
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