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what have hindu gods have 2 do with psytrance?
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Bloodclot
Bloodclot
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2190
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 09:49
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I hate to point directions - But why is it that the west is so fascinated with hindu gods? Or other religions that they go over board and make into a huge commerical gimmick? Is it because we don't have our gods in human form? Whats the fascination?
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HandA
Inactive User
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890
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 10:00
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I would love to see a scene that concentrate on the music and leave out all the pseudo religious symbols and "fashionable" religious words. |
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floatyhippyflower
Started Topics :
5
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538
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 11:32
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But Handa why? If people take enjoyment or meaning from them then frankly, what has it got to do with you?
Music is NOT a strictly secular activity for me on the whole (I can of course only speak for myself) and there are certain symbols that I find very gratifying. I was fascinated with the Om symbol and listened to Hindu bhajans long before I fell into psy (to pick just two examples). And thus one of the things I like about the genre is that it brings together many elements that are of natural interest to me on top of the music I already love - in particular some of the spiritual/healing aspects. I think they add to the music and the scene more than they take away from it.
Sorry - you can wish away all you want but it's not for you to tell me how to listen to my music. And I don't give a shit about fashion.
Edit; I apologise, I'm feeling a little grumpy this morning Handa. I don't mean to sound rude. I just think it's a case of 'horses for courses' and you should leave people to it that's all. Have a lovely day  |
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HandA
Inactive User
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 11:48
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On 2005-08-11 11:32, floatyhippyflower wrote:
But Handa why? If people take enjoyment or meaning from them then frankly, what has it got to do with you?
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Did I say that people could not use the symbols? I merely expressed my point of view. You might think Shiva and whatever religious symbol are cool. All peace with that. But it does not change the fact that 99% of all people in this scene got no clue about what the symbols stand for and just think it's cool to be like everybody else in this scene and smoke the bong under a backdrop of shiva in fluro. Maybe little too predictable?
Let me make an example. At this years Transylvania Gathering they did a music workshop in a old castle that mainly function as a sourounding to a Church. What did they do? They hang up countless of shiva backdrops etc. And what was the result? That they got thrown out for disrespecting the Churh that got offended because a bunch of people did not respect the fact that they were in a Church that pratice another religion. Just one small history of how people use the "cool" Indian religious symbols without using their intelligense or thinking about what other people might think.
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On 2005-08-11 11:32, floatyhippyflower wrote:
Music is NOT a strictly secular activity for me on the whole (I can of course only speak for myself) and there are certain symbols that I find very gratifying. I was fascinated with the Om symbol and listened to Hindu bhajans long before I fell into psy (to pick just two examples). And thus one of the things I like about the genre is that it brings together many elements that are of natural interest to me on top of the music I already love - in particular some of the spiritual/healing aspects. I think they add to the music and the scene more than they take away from it.
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Now as I said people can do what they want as long as they respect other people's opinion and right to reject those symbols and "spiritual insights". All peace with what you get out of the symbols and the music but can you sit there and deny that the majority of the people entering the scene daily all know about Indian religion and the meaning of the symbols? I doubt it. And isen't it getting a bit of a "brainwash" that one religion has to be the "spokesman" of our scene? The idea of this scene was that it's a non-religious scene and that everyone no matter religion, color, clothes or sex can join... I hardly see it's as a non-religious scene when mostly one religions symbols and "spirtual" philosphies are being forced down people's throaths almost every time they enter a party!
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On 2005-08-11 11:32, floatyhippyflower wrote:
Sorry - you can wish away all you want but it's not for you to tell me how to listen to my music. And I don't give a shit about fashion.
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I dont tell you what to do I express my opinion just as you and everybody else do. Maybe you should learn not to take things so personal when someone write their opinion in a debate like this  |
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floatyhippyflower
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
538
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 13:04
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On 2005-08-11 11:48, HandA wrote:
Did I say that people could not use the symbols? I merely expressed my point of view. |
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That you did, but it doing so expressed a desire for these symbols to be exempted from the scene without giving a second thought as to what some of them might actually mean to other people.
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| You might think Shiva and whatever religious symbol are cool. All peace with that. But it does not change the fact that 99% of all people in this scene got no clue about what the symbols stand for and just think it's cool to be like everybody else in this scene and smoke the bong under a backdrop of shiva in fluro. Maybe little too predictable? |
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Your point being.....?
The thing is Handa it makes no difference to me that I know something of the history of Hinduism and other members do not. It doesn't make me more worthy and it doesn't mean I have more of a right than anyone else to adopt some of the iconography into my enjoyment of psy. You can look at it in one of two ways - your way, where it's just a fashion/drug/party thing and therefore something to be derided, OR you could say that actually the appearance of a Shiva image or an Om symbol encourages tolerance and perhaps inspires some of us to go out there and learn more about their origin. I discovered the music of Bollywood star Asha Bhosle as a result of hearing samples of her voice in psy tracks for example. More recently I've been on a hunt for a certain mantra I heard sampled in a chill track because I find it incredibly powerful and moving. I could cite other examples but I think I have made my point. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been able to broaden their knowledge and horizons of other cultures/music as a result of my love for psy.
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| Let me make an example. At this years Transylvania Gathering they did a music workshop in a old castle that mainly function as a sourounding to a Church. What did they do? They hang up countless of shiva backdrops etc. And what was the result? That they got thrown out for disrespecting the Churh that got offended because a bunch of people did not respect the fact that they were in a Church that pratice another religion. Just one small history of how people use the "cool" Indian religious symbols without using their intelligense or thinking about what other people might think.[ |
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I would agree that this is in pretty poor taste but it does boil down to human stupidity and lack of respect at the end of the day, not the existence of a few Shiva backdrops here and there. This kind of insensitivity to others is something which can be found in all walks of life, in all genres of music, not merely those who like psytrance. And let's face it, this is an extreme example Handa. How many psy parties do you know that have been held in churches for goodness sake? The majority are in clubs or out of doors where this would not apply.
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| Now as I said people can do what they want as long as they respect other people's opinion and right to reject those symbols and "spiritual insights". |
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Personally I do. I wholeheartedly respect your right to reject them. I realise that we have members from all walks of life, both religious and secular. I accept that many people on Isra, including yourself, do not share my affinity with the symbolism synonymous with our genre. Ironically I was inspired to write because I felt that it was you did not respect my right - and the right of others - to experience these things in making the statement "leave out all the pseudo religious symbols and "fashionable" religious words"; to be fair this is rather patronising and doesn't seem to take into account anybody elses needs or desires but your own. So without meaning to be rude in any way, right back at you mate.
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| All peace with what you get out of the symbols and the music but can you sit there and deny that the majority of the people entering the scene daily all know about Indian religion and the meaning of the symbols? I doubt it. |
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No I don't deny it. But so what? It's like I said before - you can look at it your way or look at it as an opportunity to broaden peoples minds and encourage tolerance, and if nothing else, we can appreciate the beauty of the art work and allow it to enhance our experience of the music.
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| And isen't it getting a bit of a "brainwash" that one religion has to be the "spokesman" of our scene? |
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Again I would say this is a very patronising statement to make. It infers that psytrancers do not have the ability to look beyond the symbolism and are easily "brainwashed" into only one way of thinking. In that respect I completely disagree. Sure there will be a few who take on these symbols as being the be all and end all of psy, but I suspect the vast majority of us understand why they are there and have the ability to think for themselves when choosing what to implement into their own experience of trance.
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| The idea of this scene was that it's a non-religious scene and that everyone no matter religion, color, clothes or sex can join... I hardly see it's as a non-religious scene when mostly one religions symbols and "spirtual" philosphies are being forced down people's throaths almost every time they enter a party! |
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I think there are many people who might beg to differ Handa, given that despite all the Indian iconography we have members who are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Athiest, of New Age persuasion...all kinds of beliefs, all over the forum. Psy is a very inclusive genre, more so than most. Speak only for yourself.
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| I dont tell you what to do I express my opinion just as you and everybody else do. Maybe you should learn not to take things so personal when someone write their opinion in a debate like this
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I certainly don't take anything you say personally Handa and that's the truth. In fact you are one of the members whose posts I always take time to read in the debate topics even though I have often disagreed with you on issues you have raised simply because you are so opinionated and I like to consider myself open to new ideas. In personalising my response it was merely a desire to avoid speaking for other people and in doing so present you with my take on it - and my take on it only. It's something I feel very passionate about however, hence the strong language, for which I do apologise.
Peace and love 3;~ |
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Gopendragon
IsraTrance Full Member
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55
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2394
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 13:19
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On 2005-08-11 10:00, HandA wrote:
I would love to see a scene that concentrate on the music and leave out all the pseudo religious symbols and "fashionable" religious words.
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when you produce music or listen and dance is good to have an idea how the music started before thousand years...the roots...
is not bad to respect shiva who gave his knowledge and magic in a dance form to express feelings with music and drum beat before 6000 years,religions gave civilazation and help traditions to evolute their life with values like mariages,love eachother, respect... wich make them pass away the barbarian spirit,and be more human.
 ~~~~~~~namaskar~~~~~~~~~
After the End,a new Begining startS.. |
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Bloodclot
Bloodclot
Started Topics :
93
Posts :
2190
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 13:48
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God this is getting hard to read.
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HandA
Inactive User
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9
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890
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 13:49
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On 2005-08-11 13:19, Gopendra wrote:
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On 2005-08-11 10:00, HandA wrote:
I would love to see a scene that concentrate on the music and leave out all the pseudo religious symbols and "fashionable" religious words.
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when you produce music or listen and dance is good to have an idea how the music started before thousand years...the roots...
is not bad to respect shiva who gave his knowledge and magic in a dance form to express feelings with music and drum beat before 6000 years,religions gave civilazation and help traditions to evolute their life with values like mariages,love eachother, respect... wich make them pass away the barbarian spirit,and be more human.
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I see you haven't understood what i meant. I am sorry if I did not write it clear enough. I just fail to see why a scene that's surposed to be non-religious use any religion or it's symbols at all. |
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Bloodclot
Bloodclot
Started Topics :
93
Posts :
2190
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 14:07
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On 2005-08-11 13:19, Gopendra wrote:
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On 2005-08-11 10:00, HandA wrote:
I would love to see a scene that concentrate on the music and leave out all the pseudo religious symbols and "fashionable" religious words.
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when you produce music or listen and dance is good to have an idea how the music started before thousand years...the roots...
is not bad to respect shiva who gave his knowledge and magic in a dance form to express feelings with music and drum beat before 6000 years,religions gave civilazation and help traditions to evolute their life with values like mariages,love eachother, respect... wich make them pass away the barbarian spirit,and be more human.
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I completely agree with you on that, but in this day and time - nobody really follows their own traditions, respects god or even fear the consequences of wrong doings like it was 10's and thousands of years ago. Today its easy to learn about a religion cos its easily available. Problem is nobody really gets deep into it. Its more like they judge the book by its cover and then mock it for their own self gain.
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floatyhippyflower
Started Topics :
5
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538
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 14:14
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On 2005-08-11 13:49, HandA wrote:
I see you haven't understood what i meant. I am sorry if I did not write it clear enough. I just fail to see why a scene that's surposed to be non-religious use any religion or it's symbols at all.
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I don't know where it is written that the scene is supposed to be anything but exactly what it is. People make the scene Handa; the symbolism that has become attached with psy exists because we (fans, musicians and artists alike) have made it so, whether you like it or not.
Surely the relationship psy has with spirituality has to do with the origins of dance and trance-like states as spiritual/meditational tools throughout the ages, coupled with the geographical history of our music, i.e. it's relationship to Goa and the East in general. That's how I understand it anyway.
I would also make the point that I am NOT religious. I do not follow any particular set of beliefs having being forced to do so as a child; I follow my own path and do my best to implement into my life whatever is resonant with me at any one time. I consider my beliefs to be open and fluid depending on my actual experience of them.
Do not mistake 'religious' for 'spiritual'. Very often they are completely separate entities.
Smile 3;~ |
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floatyhippyflower
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
538
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 14:14
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On 2005-08-11 13:48, Bloodclot wrote:
God this is getting hard to read.
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 I agree.  |
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Gopendragon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
55
Posts :
2394
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 14:20
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@HandA
If I understand what you mean your problem is all those religious symbols that have been used in our scene all these years?
it is because some artists are inspired to write music from the pricniples of the hindu trinity as a theme subject,to make patterns in tracks, and present their music,what those hindu gods represents as a symbol got some interesting values in life.
psy-prog-techno/trance have roots from goa-trance and goa is a party paradise place in india so is natural to see hindu symbols.
~~~~~~~namaskar~~~~~~~~~
After the End,a new Begining startS.. |
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other_reality
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
43
Posts :
365
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 16:38
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Gopendra, I see your point. But, some things are misunderstood. Patterns in tracks are not directly inspired by principles of the hindu trinity.
Music is about sound, and sound is about frequency. Frequencies are divided into several categories, regarding the velocity, the aural phasma they cover, the cycles of repetition, and more.
As such, the human brain is reacting in a specific manner, to specific frequencies. ALL the religious ceremonies (mystical or not) ie. The whirling dervishes in Turkey, the Elephsinia Mysteries in Ancient Greece, the Nomad tribal dance around fire in Africa, are BASED in the erection of the human brain, and the "tuning" into specific "hypnotic" frequencies.
That's what Timothy Leary meant with that "tune in..." slogan. This is achieved by rhytmic and repetitive procedures, which put the human brain into the state of "trance". So there is alpha, beta frequency, and so on. It's about physics and brain anatomy, not about religion. Religion is only an invention, which helps into understanding deeper cosmic rules, which are in truth "hi-tech physics".
Symbols, books, philosophers, artists and all that is going round and round, because people need to identify themselves with images and ideas that are being recognised, rather than being a random approach of what's happening in this chaotic universe. Ahh, that's my point of view...Chips anyone?
Bring yourselves into the light
www.youtube.com/otherreality |
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offthenutboom
IsraTrance Full Member
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55
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928
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 19:07
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On 2005-08-11 09:49, Bloodclot wrote:
I hate to point directions - But why is it that the west is so fascinated with hindu gods? Or other religions that they go over board and make into a huge commerical gimmick? Is it because we don't have our gods in human form? Whats the fascination?
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I my personal western view I am fascinated on all kinds of religions and mythologies. All diffrent perspectives of one Truth. But, in my personal unique story, one day I opened a closet and this book fell onto my head. It was the Bhagavad Gita. It had been in the closet for years after a friend of my parents read it and went to follow a religious life. I read it and it opened my mind to God after I had become an Atheist while studying science.
That is how I personally started to be interested in Hinduism |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
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787
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 00:07
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Today its easy to learn about a religion cos its easily available. Problem is nobody really gets deep into it. Its more like they judge the book by its cover and then mock it for their own self gain.
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Bro that's powerful what you said right there.
It's so true what you say... at least for me. I do my Google searches and visit my local library in search of the answers to the mysteries of the universe... but is that the right way or am I getting myself caught up in my own book-matrix and failing to directly interact with the God(ess)-power manifest in the real world? The ease of finding information has allowed me to learn about so many traditions, and my reading about all of them has come to make a syncretic amalgamation of spiritual beliefs that I go by (methods of divination/interpretation of omens, making votive offerings etc). However I never end up getting deep into any of these religions, I just take what I need for my own ends... which is very practial but perhaps exactly for that reason maybe I do mock it for my own self gain.
Why is my relationship with the divine in the scatttered, syncretic, amalgamated way, as opposed to something already firmly established? I think it may have to do with another thing bloodclot said:
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Is it because we don't have our gods in human form? Whats the fascination?
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Not exactly that Hindusim doesnt have Gods in human form... but your on the right track I think. I think that there is this incredible sucking vacuum in Euro-American culture that was created when the pagan relgions were destroyed and Christianity took over. You see Christianity does not do a lot to address the primordial forces of the universe. It is more about moral/ethical teachings, salvation etc. It is not about the mechanics of the universe.
Hindu, Bhuddist, Central/South American traditions offer some really fascinating perspectives about humanities relationship to the cosmos, as do the now defunct religious orders of Ancient Greece, British Isles, Germany and elsewhere in Europe. Just read the Greek myths and see how the tales of the Gods are like metaphors for the personalities of the forces of nature (e.g Persophne in her light aspect of spring and summer and her dark aspect as the Bride of Hades in fall and winter). That kind of thing reminds me of, say, Kali in her creative and destructive aspects.
So my point with all this is there something that Europeans once had but have lost, and many of us want it back. Its like there is a hole in our souls that we can only fill by learning from other cultures that still keep that part of their sprit alive. Maybe someday Euro-America will come out with a cool new mystical tradition to make up for all the borrowing we're doing now in this weird little transition phase from the Christian era to whatever-the-fuck this thing thats been building since the industrial revoution is going to become.
Lets hope it turns out OK
Peace
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