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the revolution of digital greed

maux
Mauxuam

Started Topics :  28
Posts :  546
Posted : Jan 4, 2008 16:44
I start a new topic since I want to speak about the new digital promised heaven (and not about Gaudi's remixes).

the download market is possibly just another way to screw over artists, again we bend on our knees ready to be f***ed.
the middleman is getting richer every second that you count.

and don't sell your music through snocap/myspace, it's a scum !!!

here are few links about it that you may find interesting:

The Revolution of Greed and the Music Industry
http://www.theflashbulb.net/doc/revolution.htm
(a great essay...check it out)

musicians-like-writers-left-out-of-online-revenues:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/01/03/musicians-like-writers-left-out-of-online-revenues-or-not/

about snocap/myspace:
http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/buying_music_via_snocap/



          "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain will never improve, and that's here." Aldus
Loopfreaks/Electrofreaks
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  14
Posts :  57
Posted : Jan 4, 2008 17:13
I don't agree at all.

Many many labels like us pay our artists up till 70% of the net income of the digital downloads. I fail to see how that's to cheat them from sales. Actually they earn way more this way (when downloads really start to pick up in a few years) than on CD sales where they if they are lucky get 14-20% max.           www.krisandersen.com
maux
Mauxuam

Started Topics :  28
Posts :  546
Posted : Jan 4, 2008 17:34
Quote:

On 2008-01-04 17:13, Loopfreaks/Electrofreaks wrote:
I don't agree at all.

Many many labels like us pay our artists up till 70% of the net income of the digital downloads. I fail to see how that's to cheat them from sales. Actually they earn way more this way (when downloads really start to pick up in a few years) than on CD sales where they if they are lucky get 14-20% max.




ya man !
did you actually bother to check the links I posted at all ???
I am not talking about indipendent small scale digital distribution (like yours I guess) that's great !!! you are doing what they all should be doing!

but I am pointing my dirty finger to the BIG BOYS screwing us up (iTunes MS, Snocap, Amazon.com) which most ppl use to buy music and where anyway most music ends up when you sign a deal with a digital distributor.

check the first link (it's a long article) and you may get it.

          "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain will never improve, and that's here." Aldus
MARGHERITA
Master Margherita

Started Topics :  156
Posts :  1442
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 03:31
Quote:

On 2008-01-04 16:44, maux wrote:
I start a new topic since I want to speak about the new digital promised heaven (and not about Gaudi's remixes).

the download market is possibly just another way to screw over artists, again we bend on our knees ready to be f***ed.
the middleman is getting richer every second that you count.

and don't sell your music through snocap/myspace, it's a scum !!!

here are few links about it that you may find interesting:

The Revolution of Greed and the Music Industry
http://www.theflashbulb.net/doc/revolution.htm
(a great essay...check it out)

musicians-like-writers-left-out-of-online-revenues:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/01/03/musicians-like-writers-left-out-of-online-revenues-or-not/

about snocap/myspace:
http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/buying_music_via_snocap/







can be good to have this on the first page,

like a parallel info to the shahar post
http://forum.isratrance.com/very-interesting-article-by-robert-rich/

&
please
read before write some wise comments


andrew interchill
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  435
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 05:46
Interesting articles...

i'll try and find out more info about the snocap story.

the first one is not entirely precise - specifically the revenue splits for iTunes. the splits will depend upon whether or not an artist has a label and whether or not the label works with an aggregator - and then different aggregators have different commissions and fees.

his example has the aggregator taking 30% which seems a little high. IODA takes 15%. I don't have rate or fee info for the others, but there was a recent article in mushroom that went into some of these details

if you just had one or two releases then you would not need the services of an aggregator. I look at our aggregator as another distributor; they encode and deliver our music to their services, report back with detailed accounts and pay up on time. The cut of 15% is well worth it to me; I save money and time. Physical distributors and retail apply higher mark ups than this.

sometimes an aggregator will also be able to secure and arrange for features for a title - and perhaps do this more effectively than an artist or label on their own. However 3 or 4 years ago it was easier to get a front page feature, or "brick" than it is now.

I look at iTunes with some respect - they employ some very switched on, passionate and smart people. Their service shows increased growth all the time. They have been quick to respond in copyright breach situations and have a fair and transparent process.

i don't buy music from itunes myself as i prefer higher quality files. still - lots of people do.

do you think they have created or stolen a slice of the music sales market ?

if they have created new avenues then how can we say they are ripping us off ? I think their markup is inline with most retail markups - and in many cases lower.

i think major distribution deals present a far greater potential downside to an artist [with many chargebacks and lower unit prices] than does the digital model - either direct or through a label.

the writer's experience won't hold true for everyone across the board. I'll reread it in more detail and see if there's anything else that strikes me.
andrew interchill
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  435
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 07:14
another important feature of an aggregator is that they are a useful filter. if IODA's business affairs people can come to terms with a service then I'm reassured. an aggregator has collective bargaining power that an artist or individual label does not enjoy.

there are so many new services appearing all the time - not all of them are offering a good deal. I'm able to review the terms of each deal we are opted into - and opt out of any new ones that do not look good.

so, before we disparage all middlemen and their % cuts, we need to fully establish what value they deliver and then make a judgement as to whether it represents value and a fair deal or not.

an aggregator will deliver your music to as many services as they can - but the aggregator cannot guarantee sales. just because an album is available on amazon or itunes does not mean that it is selling many units.

another relevant factor is companies' exposure to risk. when a large cd distributor goes down labels don't get paid. EFA in Germany were very highly regarded... as were MDMA in Israel and Studio in USA. Add to the list. Many labels lost a pile of $$$ when these distributors went bankrupt. because of the inherent efficiency of the digital model, it is far less likely that labels and artists will go through this kind of experience... one which can be hard to recover from.

with digital we have no exposure to returns of unsold goods. do a major distro deal and the exposure can be massive; your stock can be returned 12 months later - resulting in an ugly payable.

anyway - an interesting topic. worthy of more focus
elektric sheep
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  315
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 09:49
one thing about digital music...why do they charge what i consider ridiculous prices for mp3 files?

take the maux for e.g
http://www.addictech.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=10799

its $12 for 320kbs mp3
its $16 for FLAC

Now thats the same price as the physical CD throgh a distributor (with markup).

Surely digital media files should be a LOT less...

A friend gets his stock from arabesque, and I was shocked to find out how little actual CD cost (and what kind of markup he can put on each CD to match prices of CD's in this country)...he makes more than the artist. (although he risks by buying stock and having to push it)...still digital pricing is skewed.

MARGHERITA
Master Margherita

Started Topics :  156
Posts :  1442
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 13:58
1 question for sud africa:

how much you pay a cd produced in your country ?

for a band like, let say, Amampondo,
how much you pay for one of theird cd into a real shop in Cape Town ? (for example)



elektric sheep
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  315
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 20:00
Hi Moreno, i will list some examples of CD's printed here, first exchange rates

ZAR 7.60 = 1$
ZAR 11.88=1Euro

the new REM album:-

http://www.kalahari.net/music/Accelerate/19738/32722884.aspx

is on promo special for R121, normal price is R150 in most shops.

the new Goldfish which is the latest hot cape town electro jazz outfit

http://www.kalahari.net/music/Perceptions-of-Pacha/19738/32806530.aspx

is selling for R120 in the shops, on Kalahari shop there is a promo price of R100 (but you still have to add R30 delivery fee).

Imported CD's e.g psyshop trance/chill can cost ZAR169.00 in shops that get Cd's from importer (network77 & 4tune records)

If I order a CD from Saiko Sounds it cost about ZAR150 (inc postage)..recently Saiko upped the price by $1

...of course ordering parcels can add customs charges.

order froms cdbaby is usually $10-$15 and postage without plastic =$5 for 2 disks...so better.

to get a CD from arabesque cost about R90 if you order many units.

Anyway, the question I ask is that why is digital media stil at similar price to that of the physical CD?
Considering no manufacture ,shipping, inventory, packaging & stock holdikng cost?

I thought Fakescience had the right idea of $5 for mp3...i miss them ..maybe $5 was not enough to sustain the model!



andrew interchill
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  435
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 22:40
digital files are priced differently according to which service you use... and what you buy. fake science was at the cheaper end of the scale - too cheap IMO [artist & label making <2.50 US each per album sale] EMusic offer great value... but the file quality is not suited to playing tunes out.

A number of niche services get away with charging more - mainly because their market consists of dj's who are looking for a few tunes to cherry pick from an album - and not the whole album. [beatport, addictech etc]

as a label we would not get anywhere trying to persuade a download service to change their prices.

our job is to distribute the music widely and then try and let people know where they can find it.

with the addictech link for Mauxuam's album you can get individual tracks or the full album ahead of general release - if you want.

for physical cd markups - i'm with you... still we work with what is available. retail always mark up by 30-60%. I find arabesque a pleasure to work with - they earn their % IMO.




The Chilling Spirit


Started Topics :  1
Posts :  332
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 22:58
Do not forget about Magnatune!
http://www.magnatune.com/info/
Recently the founder published a in-depth study of their doings, can't find it at the moment.           http://enjoys.it
andrew interchill
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  435
Posted : Apr 27, 2008 23:12
magnatune looks cool... especially for an artist who wants to go direct and not work with a label.

magnatune is in effect the label - though it does not do all that labels usually do.

there's a store here in BC called Still Eagle which also has the sliding price scale... not a bad idea...


maux raised a flag about snocap - has anyone here been paid for music they have sold on their myspace pages ? just curious...

we tried dealing with them but were told our catalogue was too large... it is a model best suited for artists



maux
Mauxuam

Started Topics :  28
Posts :  546
Posted : Apr 28, 2008 00:07
few artists had troubles with snocap
between the others 302 acid           "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain will never improve, and that's here." Aldus
BrettFromTibet
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  61
Posts :  749
Posted : Apr 28, 2008 04:34
MY RANT:

The snail's crawl to the digital music revolution is really testing my patience... I've been waiting for about 10 years now (since I downloaded my first .mp3 on Napster in 1999).

I pretty much have thrown in the towel on buying plastic CDs (why wait 2 weeks to have shipped, then spend an hour ripping it onto my Macs and portable music player, and then stick it on the shelf to be unused). If the labels don't offer it, then someone else does. MYCEL and GEM are the new labels!

Piracy will continue, rampantly, until artists and labels can offer lossless digital music at CHEAPER THAN CD prices.

Like $10 for an album download. Or LESS.

When labels offer people the music they want, on demand, in a modern format, at a reasonable price that makes piracy seem like a tacky option, then they will prosper again.


We don't want less music (because it's more expensive), that is more restricted (due to DRM and propritary lock-ins), and harder to get.

In spite of my deep love of music, I am trying hard to refrain from buying, reviewing, promoting or recommending any CD-only releases online or to my friends.

ARTISTS: forget the middle man and the clueless labels. Make great music, promote it online (easy to do in this era), sell the downloads losseless and we will pay you the FULL PRICE. Win, win for everyone except the dinosaur middlemen (old-fashioned labels, expensive download services) that can't get with the program! I mean look at the the whole Twisted fiasco with Ott's album.. they took 6 months of heming and hawing and lying to get something printed on plastic - and it was available for download within seconds after the first copy shipped.

As a long time, loyal patron of the ambient arts,I am deeply frustrated with the whole situation, and I want to get back to enjoying the music and well as supporting and promoting it.

VISUALIZE AFFORDABLE, PRISTINE MUSIC DOWNLOADS!
andrew interchill
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  435
Posted : Apr 28, 2008 21:45
Brett...

i know you're a man of principle... so i don't accept that you're serious about going p2p just because you cannot get decently priced lossless digital from all the labels and artists you like.

that is like saying that because you think something is overpriced in a store you'll find someone who has stolen goods for sale at a cheaper price. that kind of consumer choice only reinforces piracy/ theft.

sure - it has been said that in order to dissuade piracy labels and distributors should make music available for less $.

that does not condone piracy though

you should also be aware that in USA you are in the most forward thinking territory when it comes to digital... the largest market too. so sure - i think that change in digital music sales and will continue to come from models tested in US. But only once the other major territories catch up will the vision you have be closer to reality.

we could do it from our site - but from an economic perspective and a workflow perspective it is a bit counter-intuitive. the key with digital is to place music where most people will see it, and within as many of the current business models as possible. that means that one's own site may not be the ideal place to generate the most sales.

your advice to artists is a little misleading - there are benefits to working with a label that may not be so easily replaced by going it alone.

what you're suggesting and what magnatune suggests, is going for a larger share of a smaller pie... and not having someone get behind production and promotion costs, as well as not benefitting from labels' licensing contacts and existing relationships.

i'm amazed by how quickly digital continues to grow...

so - while piracy bothers me a bit, i know i cannot control it... so i focus on what i can stimulate and try to generate positive outcomes there.


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