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The future of the trance industry
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 22:38
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good post spindrift (i mean it goes into the right direction and level of discussion)!
the future is simply THE INTERNET.
CDs will be just the medium to transmit downloads physically between the webinterface and the hifi/pa.
The label of the future is an online-provider for sure, maybe you pay 10€/$ each month with 1 year contract and you will be download a full spectrum of exclusive music dierct from the artist (if you sign up for one year you gonna get 25% bonus on new pioneer cdp price, something like this for example, the marketingideas are endless). the artists are simply payed for each download.
this all will happen and is just happening. maybe with or without trance music, the key is just the permanent improvement of broadbandinternetconnections and the decrease of telecommunication prices. the DSL/cable market in germany for example is one of the most growing markets in europe, prices are falling, speed is going more and more. its not only about music-selling. if i want to buy new equitment for my studio or pc, the e-shops have just 80%-95% of the store prices in most cases, because the e-shops dont have the same totall costs like the "real-stores" and often got more costumers which allow them to sell on lower prices.
what can we do to improve our scene and distributions? my tip for everyone:
buy different. push the market-competition between the labels, artist and distributors. do not buy always from the same label, byue from different ones and they all start to have a chance to grow and need to find ideas. competition is always good, ist same same as demogracy just not in political way but in business-relations. if you have just hommega and solstice music, there will be no improvement anymore. there will be marketdictation, no improvement, always the same way. (sorry, I have nothing against this superb labels! dont get me wrong) spread your support, this is an old marketrule for costumers which like to influence in a good way. |
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CoversBrasil
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
15
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 00:15
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I have to say that this issue is very important. And if we try to see from diferent points of view, we´ll be abble to get more out of it(the thread).But its a fact that:
If labels dont adjust to the new technology they´ll fail. If stores dont start to offer better deals and hook on the Internet, they´ll break down. Providers are actually the new trend for music shopping, and if their abble to provide good quality(wav) instead of mp3 quality, for a good price and with excellent velocity, they chances to get the market are obviously much bigger.
About parties: Parties are where every good producers and djs make money(and they even get to travel around for free, and meet a lot of cultures and interesting people). I agree that labels should join up to make parties together and that they should do bigger marketing of their artists through the internet(and even start to selling with better deals too).
But my first contact with trance was through donwloading MP3, and for most of the trance fans that is true. There is no way of impeeding anyone from downloading. I spend a great amount of my money on parties. That way I dont feel bad about donwloading, because I know that im doing what is affordable to me. So I support the artists, the labels and the scene by going to the parties. I have to say that labels which make parties and festivals earn money. Here, in Brasilia, there is at least 1 trance party every weekend. And if there isnt. U bet there is a good festival coming up, or a party still close. And I see a lot of people making money from it, and living from it(Djs & Producers). That are local DJs that play every week, and if they dont play here, they´ll be playing somewhere else. So I believe that if u make music because u love it, and if u have talent, u´ll make it. U just cant expect to live out of trance if people dont like your music or if u arent abble to make the effort to start it. And if the fans know your stuff and like it(through the internet and anywhere else) the party will be crowded. Thats just the scene up here, in Brasil, and i dont see why isnt like this all around. That´s just my opinion. An there is that stuff about old freaks sayng that the parties are not like they were before(thats what u get when more people get a hook on trance music), that really happens...
Peace... |
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
103
Posts :
2184
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 00:42
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Just a thought concerning this topic:
No matter how many people go to parties, it's still electronic dance music. The masses of people who attend these parties are there for the dance party and are not necessarily the kind of fans who care to own the music.
I just don't think you can count on the number of people attending partys be representative of the number of people who will potentially want to own the music.
Seems like only real fans (like the handful on this forum) and budding DJs and musicians care enough to own the music. For the rest, it's just party music to be heard when you go to partys.
Maybe the only thing that will change that is when (I know it's happening now) the scene produces pop stars.
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 00:52
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What about those artists that rarely get bookings? Ambient artist are a good example among many other artists out there that rarely get bookings (And yes I get plenty of bookings so dont even go there. I am not talking about myself. I am happy with my "career"). Where's the support in all those parties that rarely have a chill out or anything else than the usual "popular on demand music"? Where is the support for those underrated artists? So they should just be happy that you download their music for free (yes you know that you DO download their music too) and that you only support the "superstars" at your local parties? Where is the loyalty and support for those that do not get the BIG MONEY bookings around the globe? Or are you all so blinded with your selfproclamed so-called "support" that you fail to understand that in this scene the top 5% artists are the ones that take all the money via bookings. The rest are just to shut up and be happy that you the "buyers" listen to their mp3's without giving anything back to them! They sure dont get ant bookings because most "leechers" and the organisers just want the same supermarket music over and over again at the parties leaving no room for the alternative artists!
I see endless excuses that all the artists make lots of money via bookings and therfore dont need money for their music. Excuse me but who are you to decide if an artists should get paid or not? Isen't that up to the artist to decide if he/she like to get paid for the music he/she create?
If you dont like the artists music then just keep your fingers away from the music and go and buy what you like! BUT dont start to tell the artists that they should be happy that you listen to their music without paying for it.
YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY THAT AFTER ALL THE DISRESPECT AND BAD EXCUSES THERE'S STILL PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT BOTHER TO MAKE MUSIC FOR YOU TO ENJOY AND DANCE TO!!!!!!
Why dont you tomorrow go to work and tell your Boss you dont want any more payments for the work you do?
I have no problem whatesover if some artists want to share their music for free or sell it in various alternative ways. BUT it should be the artists decision if he/she want to work for nothing or not! NOT your choice! |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 01:08
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I am sure happy if people like to listen to my music, regardless if they paid for it or not.
But HandA, i cannot see your point.
Sure, everyone want to earn money, I would decide for earning money if I had the choice
But if people do not want to spend money on the music you can decide what you like, it won't matter.
We all know that is very hard to try to make a living out of trance. You think that the one and only reason for that is downloading.
Regardless of the reason the fact remains that it is hard, and people will not stop downloading because some anti Mp3 evangelists tell the that downloading is bad.
That should be pretty much obvious to everyone.
So, the artists have to find other ways to make money if that is their intention despite the current situation. Spend more effort on promotion and making interesting live sets or finding alternative means of distibuting the music to increase their profit.
It will not be easy, but if you enter the trance scene for a easy buck you have only yourself to blame if you fail.
So the parallel with the boss and work is very weak.
If you are stupid enough to take the "job" as a trance producer and start blame people that downloaded your music that you can't make a living I cannot feel sorry for you.
I have no problem with people who manage to make money out of their music, but the ones that expect it and look for who to blame when it does not work out I have a hard time respecting.
 (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
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HandA
Inactive User
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9
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890
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 01:27
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Well I hardly entered the scene for an easy buck. Actually last year I had 10 years aniversay as an artist in this scene. I doubt I would still hang around if I was into this scene for the money's sake  But there has to be a limit of how much people can piss on the artists! Sorry for my faul language but they do piss on the artists with one hand and with the other hand they pet the artists on the head and praise their work! I call it pathetic and to piss on the artists - simple straight forward language !
I know i cant change people's minds but I as everyone else have a right to say what i think and indeed speak up if someone steal my or my fellow artists music (which surely happens every day in high high numbers).
You see I might be one of the old school people that still think that an honest job should be paid. It all come down to moral and how you see things! I think people deserve to get paid for their work... Obviously a lot of you people dont think so!
Yes I know you think I am annoying and propelry a pain in the neck when I tell people they are stealing and that it's wrong. But that's what they do - like it or not! You can wrap it up in endless fancy excuses, surveys and statistics (all done for the established music industry, or the movements for free entertainment!!!). At the end of the day people steal music from artists that used a lot of time and energy in making that music!
Obviously in you mind artists are nothing but useless monkeys that dont deserve anything in return and should just bend their necks and be thankful that you listen to their music.... Thats what makes me most angry... That you (people in general) keep defending yourself over and over again instead of admitting that you dont care one bit if the artists get paid or not! That's the basic issue here.... Do you care or not? And dont start to drag in parties that not many artists benefit from anyway. I am talking about getting paid for the music the artists make! DO YOU CARE OR NOT?
PS! I fail to see that artists now are labeled "Evangelists" if they stand up for their legal rights to get paid for their music! |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 01:39
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If you are indeed old fashioned you should realize what the life of a musician used to be in the olden days.
Either you played music in the street and basically beg for money, or if you where very good you would get an appanage from a wealthy mentor.
So don't compare it to a miner not getting their salary for work they have done, because making music have never really been a work in that sense.
If you feel pissed on because someone download your track, thats something in your mind.
I sure do not feel that way.
But ask a hard working laborer how he feels if the boss decide not to pay him.
I think you will find that there it's not a matter of personal opinion, they all would get angry.
I sure would if I was not paid for work.
But, again, music is not work, it's art, and artists always been at the mercy of other people and if they feel like supporting them or not.
It might feel bad that people rather talk to their friends on a mobile than donate money for you because they like your music.
But you are in no position to make demands, and if people do not care go on to make music in your spare time and get a proper job.
Thats always been the case for an artists, even before downloading on the internet.
The difference is that people who listened to someone playing in the street or hearing music on a banquet was not considered thiefes if the did not pay the artists.
That is a very young phenomenon. (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 01:51
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I'm sorry, I needed to chime in here.... I do believe that an artist should be compensated for the work that they do, but on that same hand if they are making music to make money rather than making music because they enjoy then I feel that maybe they are in the wrong genre or making music for the wrong reasons. I have a day job. That is what I do to support myself financially. I write music purely for fun and self-expression. If it happens to make me a little money as well, great! But if I am not making money from it, I find it just as rewarding to have someone I never have met before tell that they downloaded some of my music and they really enjoyed it. Sure I would love to have some extra cash for the effort I put into making the song, but the real reward that I get is watching the people who are dancing to this song at the gigs that I do play. When it is all said and done, why did you decide to make music, and will you stop making music because you won't get any money for doing it? If writing music was the only way for me to make money, I'd make rap music.
I too understand that it sucks to see your music on P2P networks, I have found that most of my stuff both released and not have found it onto these sharing networks. But I could horde my tracks untill some label decides to pick them up, or I not be worried about the stuff that's already out and write more music. Perhaps if people happened to like the unreleased stuff, they would want to see me play or perhaps keep themelves posted on any new tracks that will come out.
HandA, don't get me wrong... I do understand your anger... but speaking harshly to people, especially those who are making an attempt to find a way to coexist with the status quo, isn't really going to get your point across. It will just make you look and sound like a fanatic.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 02:05
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Where did I ever say anything about becoming rich from the music or making a living out of it? But to be paid fair for the work you do is every Humans right. Even an artists right!
And to say that making music is not work and only art is pure nonsense. This old cliche that artist have to suffer for the sake of their art is boring and frankly ignorant and very naive.
If people think I am angry then be my guest. I am angry !!!.. Not so much about the fact that mp3's are here to stay.. I can too see the benefit in mp3's regarding promotion ect. or whatever the future bring... And I am all for alternative ways of selling music. Yes SELLING!!! I am angry because people use endless bad excuses, surveys and so-called valid statistics ect. instead of just admitting that they dont care. At the end of the day the conclusion must be that they dont care if the artist dont get paid for his/her WORK (yes work)! If they did care they would at least feel bad about what they are doing.. But I doubt they feel bad at all. One dollar/euro/yen saved is alfa and omega for the leechers!!!
And all I see from the people that "want to change things" are words, words, words. No action no solutions ! - Because there aren't any solution and there properly wont be any solution until the day when artist finally had enough and say stop and refuse to provide people with any more free music! Even if a CD or a track were to become super cheap people will still download and refuse to pay for entertainment!
So where are the changes? We have been talking about this now for more than 5 years! Yet nothing has changed. The situation is the same as always!
Why dont you people who think alternative ways are the ultimate solution to the problem prove to us that your solution work? So far none of you have had any luck proving anything. As I said - talk, talk, talk
iTunes sell a lot of music - yes agreed! Established multimillion dollar artists music! The small underground artists drown in the store simply because they cant afford to pay the high prices Apple charge for the promotion in the stores! And even if they manage to get some attention the cut is stil very much in favour of Apple and the labels. The artists are once again the ones that get the leftovers! So much for alternative support for the artists. It's just another normal shop. The only difference is that it's on the Internet!
At least I dont kid myself. There's no solution. Most people in this scene want and expect entertainment to be free.. Thats the the naked truth! The ones that pay for music are true heroes in my opinion. Sadly they get less and less. |
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mono mono
Onnomon
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
314
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 02:42
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Everyone can afford at different levels. Some people can't afford much of anything whether by choice or circumstance. Do you deprive them the option of enjoying your music? And those with bounty, are they conscientious enough to give the artists a little of their extra fruit? yes/no/maybe is the answer to all this. I'm all for the floating-pay-scale. I suppose the other option is make a style of music where the listeners can afford to purchase, like smooth ethnic-jazz, heh heh. What is your typical psytrancer? what do they do? how do they live?
But I do feel like chill artists get a bum rap. I love making all sorts of music but i've been concertrating more on the boom-boom-boom stuff simple because I want to meet people in other lands. Main-stage dance artists get the call, chill artists rarely get the call. Consider forming a "chill band" because there's usually demand for live performance music.
In the party world only a couple people always get paid: the landowner (grrr!!!!), the insurance company, the security company. Most unfortunate that an artist must work many years to build a set's worth of quality music and still flip burgers for a living.
-dz
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furthur
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
45
Posts :
1383
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 06:36
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I am not saying that downloading is not a problem; however things are not as black and white as some ppl say they are.
I have an example. Would you buy an artwork from a visual artist without seeing that work? Well, yes, you might if you know relatively well that artist's other works and believe you will not be disappointed. In other cases, though, that is why art galleries exist so that you can go see some works and decide if you want to have some of it hanging on your wall.
Why is music so different. Why must I blindly buy a CD and risk being disappointed when I can most of the time find it in relatively good quality with the full tracks, listen one or two times and decide whether or not it is a keeper of which I want to have the original. Of course there are some labels and artists where I do not feel the need for prelistening, but frankly, these CDs that I buy "blindly" (or deafly) make up not much more of a third of all the CDs I buy.
Of course, I am not so naive as to think that everyone does the same and downloads only the music that he thinks of possibly buying. But that does not mean that all downloading is evil. I think that had Iboga, Aleph Zero, Interchill, and downloading not existed, I would not own any psy CDs at all.
Load Universe into Cannon. Aim at Brain. Fire.
www.ganesha.ca |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 12:07
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HandA
I think you made your point.
If you want to hijack this thread and make it into one of the usual bad vibe creating accusing anti download discussions based on ungrounded suspicions i think thats sad.
You don't like to discuss facts and statistics, they seem to annoy you.
Be visionary then, and come with some creative input.
That relentless complaining won't help you or anyone alse to make a living out of your music.
Again, I think it's only sad and make you look bitter and miserable.
You compare it to a regular job, and think it's not art. But you cannot say it's naive that musicians always have to struggle for their living and that it was always only a few % that actually could make a decent living out of their music.
I think everyone here would like to change that, but welcome to reality my friend.
Even if you see it as a job, you have to relalise that we are all freelancers. A freelancer cannot demand that you have a income, there is more freedom, but no guarantee for a income. You have to work for it and try to find creative ways to use your skill. Otherwise you will starv or get a regular job.
You really remind me about a webdeveloper who have problem finding projects to work on and blame all the kids sitting in their bedroom making cheap websites for taking your work. It just sad, and will not help you land more work.
So please, if you feel like keeping on whinching about how ripped of you feel by people downloading, make another thread about it.
Otherwise please make your posts about the topic at hand.
Read the thread title again...it's called "the future of trance industry" not "please give us all your crap about how miserable you feel about the current state of the trance industry".
We had enough of that.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
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http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 14:02
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Quote:
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On 2005-02-01 12:07, Spindrift wrote:
HandA
I think you made your point.
If you want to hijack this thread and make it into one of the usual bad vibe creating accusing anti download discussions based on ungrounded suspicions i think thats sad.
You don't like to discuss facts and statistics, they seem to annoy you.
Be visionary then, and come with some creative input.
That relentless complaining won't help you or anyone alse to make a living out of your music.
Again, I think it's only sad and make you look bitter and miserable.
You compare it to a regular job, and think it's not art. But you cannot say it's naive that musicians always have to struggle for their living and that it was always only a few % that actually could make a decent living out of their music.
I think everyone here would like to change that, but welcome to reality my friend.
Even if you see it as a job, you have to relalise that we are all freelancers. A freelancer cannot demand that you have a income, there is more freedom, but no guarantee for a income. You have to work for it and try to find creative ways to use your skill. Otherwise you will starv or get a regular job.
You really remind me about a webdeveloper who have problem finding projects to work on and blame all the kids sitting in their bedroom making cheap websites for taking your work. It just sad, and will not help you land more work.
So please, if you feel like keeping on whinching about how ripped of you feel by people downloading, make another thread about it.
Otherwise please make your posts about the topic at hand.
Read the thread title again...it's called "the future of trance industry" not "please give us all your crap about how miserable you feel about the current state of the trance industry".
We had enough of that.
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Now dont twist my words.. Your very good at it!
I never said it's not art! i said it's also work!
And secondly I already said that I am happy for my "career". I do ok so dont start to turn it over as if I am a biter man that dont get any gigs. I get plenty of gigs mate.
A freelancer sure get paid doing a job or project. I should know. I work as a freelancer
Ok here's my view on the future:
More talk from those with the "solution" and more ripping, downloading!
And I actually did discuss things that you brought up.. Like the iTunes store.. But you failed miserabely to see that or just ignored it because it made points against your "expert" knowledge!
Last. How come I am hijacking this thread just because I express my opinion? If I hijack it you certantly do so too with your posts! So stop telling me to shut up.. It wont happen. I frankly also had enough of you and the way you think you are right all the time and how you think people should shut up when you dont agree with them... Get real dude! |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 14:12
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Yo crazy Dane,
I understand the fact that u take this issue close to the heart and I totally dig why...
But don't u think that u r too hard on the gas, in every thread that concerns with this issue, there is heeps of quarreling that goes between u and any other that shows an opinion that is not yours. It is not that I say u r wrong or something.
I say that those debates u create, kill the essence of the thread and other ppl that maybe would like to participate in it might feel there is something personal going on, so since we all know yout and spindrift's points maybe we let others talk as well, and try not to make this so personal?
Just a thought - no offence please
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 14:16
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Your absolutely right Yuli but I get offended when ridegious people like Spindrift think he have all the right to tell me to shut up when he infact himself write in almost every thread trying to be the big "expert" on almost every subject. That pisses me off. I dont tell anyone to shut up. I debate and yes sometimes heavely but i NEVER tell people to shut up!
But i will shut up now and let the expert come up with an solution to the problem. |
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