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Son Kite on playing live in trance
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clown
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
97
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1777
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 01:11
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so let me get this straight.
the people demande from the artists :
1. to produce top quality music
2. to ensure its unique and original
3. put together a live act
4. tweek and perform live once you get a LIVE gig (and take the change of missing a note and ruining the experiance)
5. practice your live act at home (as appose to make new music to ensure you don't miss a note)
6. self promote yourself as an artist so there's more than 100 people at the event to see you be so LIVE
7. When producing music at home, the artist must use quality platforms
all this and more to satisfy the 20some odd people in each country that really pay attention to what the artist is doing with his time durring his gig. Because if those 20 people aren't satisfied, they will complain to 20 different people EACH throughout the night saying how crappy and FAKE the live act was, not even thinking about what they just experianced musically. Yeah, maybe if the artists did play live people would enjoy parties more..
come on guys... and then we can all call the artists sell-outs for using there guitars live just like Skazi or say "this isn'y psy anymore" like we do with IM?!!
  "VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 02:43
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On 2006-07-14 01:11, clown wrote:
so let me get this straight.
the people demande from the artists :
1. to produce top quality music
2. to ensure its unique and original
3. put together a live act
4. tweek and perform live once you get a LIVE gig (and take the change of missing a note and ruining the experiance)
5. practice your live act at home (as appose to make new music to ensure you don't miss a note)
6. self promote yourself as an artist so there's more than 100 people at the event to see you be so LIVE
7. When producing music at home, the artist must use quality platforms
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1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Not necessarily
4. Absolutely. I speak from experience when I say it's the little mistakes (and sometimes the big ones lol) that make the audience feel in their bones that it's a live performance - and there's nothing like the realisation that what you're listening to is being created (at least in part) live in front of you on stage to make the audience feel part of what's going on.
5. Yes. Unless you're uber-talented any musical performance needs at least some preparation and practise at home before the gig, especially at the beginning of one's musical career. If you're a musician you'll be playing music anyway - and once your set is prepared technically, what's an hour out of your life running through it with a couple of friends sat on the sofa throwing comments and suggestions at you? And like I said before, don't be afraid to miss those notes. Stretch yourself on stage. Take risks. Many years ago I read an interview with the Ozric Tentacles in which they said that when they make a mistake on stage, they just do the same thing three more times and it becomes a riff. Words to live by.
6. That's part of the promoters job, although I'm sure most artists will tell all their friends about the parties the have coming up!
7. I believe the quality of the results you can get depend at least partly on the quality of the tools you use, so yes.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Watter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
184
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 03:33
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Well then from Clown's point of view I don´t even have to DJ anymore .. I can simply pre-record a djset and press play.... then there is no way I will make a mistake....
Just one question... don´t every rock band... bee them big or small .... produce, practice and then play live?? Why is it that PsyTrance artists have the "privilege" of just pressing play?? U don´t hear ppl saying ...."hey its OK do lipsinck in a rock concert"..... and thats because we PAY to see/hear it LIVE not pre recorded...
think about it clown
"open your mind....you might just see that there isn't anything to be seen" |
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uri.ya
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
606
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 06:42
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great topic !!! 
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 06:54
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On 2006-07-14 01:11, clown wrote:
so let me get this straight.
the people demande from the artists :
1. to produce top quality music
2. to ensure its unique and original
3. put together a live act
4. tweek and perform live once you get a LIVE gig (and take the change of missing a note and ruining the experiance)
5. practice your live act at home (as appose to make new music to ensure you don't miss a note)
6. self promote yourself as an artist so there's more than 100 people at the event to see you be so LIVE
7. When producing music at home, the artist must use quality platforms
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Yes.
I don't demand though, I suggest. Big difference.
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all this and more to satisfy the 20some odd people in each country that really pay attention to what the artist is doing with his time durring his gig.
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Excuse me?
Are we talking about parties? It's very sad if you go to parties where ppl don't notice the music. The parties I go to ppl don't notice anything else- they're way way deep inside the music :-D
Always been like that... ---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 11:11
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i feel some things have to be told here:
1. not every perfomance of an artist using small equitment (only notebook & controller for example) is therefore not live. with modern software-solutions you have wonderfull possibilities to create unique sets and react directly on the crowd and feeling, it just depends on how intelligent you create your technical setting and prepare your loops/elements/effects. and there will be even amazing solutions in future where you dont need to put tons of equitment into your package.
2. putting the whole complex studio on stage doesnt automaticly mean that its more live than another solution. imagine: a human has 2 hands only. a trancetrack consists of a sum of many many paralell tracks and you will always have just 2 hands, no matter how you arrange your liveset, it will always be limited by 2 hands of each person. maybe all the equitment look very nice and instead of recorded audio you hear some things directly through midi and on the fly, but most of the work is still the sequencer doing, and no one else.
3. "faked livesets" (they are ALL faked compared to a rockband) are for sure not the reason why many people in our scene, even organizers are unreliable.
4. needs to be told here. compared to what i tell here i also have to say that son kite and midimiliz too make the best livesets i have ever seen. but, stay realistic if we speak about "live" and "not live" and faked and who is guilty for the mistakes other people do. |
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Acidhive
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
76
Posts :
2014
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 11:34
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On 2006-07-13 23:27, clown wrote:
just stop saying it has to be THIS way, and its gay if its THAT way..
I'll just say if the artist makes good music in the studio, think of his music on a HUGE sound system for 60 minutes none-stop.. and even if its a pre-record to a certain extent, it still takes time to put together, make the proper transitions and the story is still there. Just stop looking for more attention because you are live LIVE !!
let your music speak for itself !
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Amen to that. I think about this in the exact same way.
"Subconscious unravels at the point of death, and all time it has known erupts into a moment. As death extinguishes us, so we become it."
[Esoteric: Subconscious Dissolution Into The Continuum] |
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Acidhive
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
76
Posts :
2014
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 11:43
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On 2006-07-14 03:33, Watter wrote:
Well then from Clown's point of view I don´t even have to DJ anymore .. I can simply pre-record a djset and press play.... then there is no way I will make a mistake....
Just one question... don´t every rock band... bee them big or small .... produce, practice and then play live?? Why is it that PsyTrance artists have the "privilege" of just pressing play?? U don´t hear ppl saying ...."hey its OK do lipsinck in a rock concert"..... and thats because we PAY to see/hear it LIVE not pre recorded...
think about it clown
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Think about this: Psytrance is electronic music foremost. Can you see an artist performing effects like timestretch, phaser, echoes etc. etc. live? And how in the hell are you going to play the fast synthriffs like for example some full-on tracks have? Think about it. To an extent, not even Son Kite can play all things live. It's just a fact, that's what you get when you play electronic music. I saw Kraftwerk live in the Minimum Maximum tour and even they (with 4 people) didn't play everything live. Now that's saying something. And in the part where they did 'The Robots' they're not there anymore and not even playing the song live. You see their robot versions. And the crowd? They loved it.
And in the end, isn't it all about the music? As I said before, I'd rather see an artist play a perfect set for me from a cd or something then see him make countless mistakes in his liveperformance. But hey, that's me talking, and I'm a soundfetishist.
"Subconscious unravels at the point of death, and all time it has known erupts into a moment. As death extinguishes us, so we become it."
[Esoteric: Subconscious Dissolution Into The Continuum] |
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papay
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
213
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 12:29
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honestly i think nobody cares is it live or not if the sound is good it doesn t matter how it is played.
and about son kite well i have never understand your point you explain in your second album how you play one track cd and one "live" so you use cd which definetly kills the whole live concept plz explain? |
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Seb
Son Kite
Started Topics :
47
Posts :
207
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 14:16
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Clown, Kitnam, Acidhive and Papay … please read my little text again, after reading your posts I get the feeling that you really didn’t get my points!
If you read my text carefully you will realize that I’m not only speaking about how to play live I’m speaking about the music itself and the “artists” composing the music. I don’t think there are many true artists in the trance scene but a lot of non innovative producers that know how to copycat!
If you’re an artist everything comes by itself, no one have to tell you to innovate your music or to try to play an interesting live … this comes from inside and happens by itself. Once again … please read my earlier text one more time!!!
Shahar, Collins, Watter and Dvola … nice to see that there are people that actually care about the essence of art and music on this forum!
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On 2006-07-13 23:27, clown wrote:
I'll just say if the artist makes good music in the studio, think of his music on a HUGE sound system for 60 minutes none-stop.. and even if its a pre-record to a certain extent, it still takes time to put together, make the proper transitions and the story is still there. Just stop looking for more attention because you are live LIVE !!
let your music speak for itself !
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In my earlier text I wrote clearly that there are millions ways to play live and that you also have different purposes with a live performance. It’s up to you as an artist to find out your OWN way … this is creativity!!! To do something unique and find new interesting solutions.
Clown, the amount of time you spend has nothing to do with how good it is!
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On 2006-07-13 23:27, clown wrote:
Just stop looking for more attention because you are live LIVE !!
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If you’re an artist you don’t do something to get attention … you do it because it the only thing to do. But I think you got to the point why there are so many copycats in the trance scene … the energy and motivation is to get attention not to create good music, and that is a very sad fact!!!
Like Shahar said earlier, why call something live when it’s not?
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On 2006-07-14 11:11, Kitnam wrote:
i feel some things have to be told here:
1. not every perfomance of an artist using small equitment (only notebook & controller for example) is therefore not live. with modern software-solutions you have wonderfull possibilities to create unique sets and react directly on the crowd and feeling, it just depends on how intelligent you create your technical setting and prepare your loops/elements/effects. and there will be even amazing solutions in future where you dont need to put tons of equitment into your package.
2. putting the whole complex studio on stage doesnt automaticly mean that its more live than another solution. imagine: a human has 2 hands only. a trancetrack consists of a sum of many many paralell tracks and you will always have just 2 hands, no matter how you arrange your liveset, it will always be limited by 2 hands of each person. maybe all the equitment look very nice and instead of recorded audio you hear some things directly through midi and on the fly, but most of the work is still the sequencer doing, and no one else.
3. "faked livesets" (they are ALL faked compared to a rockband) are for sure not the reason why many people in our scene, even organizers are unreliable.
4. needs to be told here. compared to what i tell here i also have to say that son kite and midimiliz too make the best livesets i have ever seen. but, stay realistic if we speak about "live" and "not live" and faked and who is guilty for the mistakes other people do.
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1. That’s perfectly right … like I said earlier:
“With this I don’t mean that you must get limited while creating electronic music/electronic dance music … rather the opposite! The development of electronic music equipment and computer based music equipment is the biggest revolutions in music making/playing/composing/producing of our time and even though the traps and pit holes are many you also have possibilities to use the new technology in a wise and musically healthy way. Wisely used it also enables you to leave the thought behind and let you play with your feelings even thou you can’t play an instrument or have a musical training. (This is by the way one of the biggest steps in the democracy of the art). There are many artists doing amazing and innovative compositions with only a computer!!!”
2. Very true! When you create your own platform to play live you should really think about what you can do with the equipment you bring and how it will affect the performance and in the end – the people on the dancefloor!
What I don’t understand is why you should only be one person???? If you want to play a real liveset but you’re doing all the composing and producing yourself you should invite enough people to play with you so you could be able to do the performances that you want to do. BUT of course you have to take the consequences … two or three people in a band don’t get more paid than one person playing playback BUT this should never be the reason why you don’t try to do something special and interesting on stage!!!
3. Why shall we compare electronic dance music with rock music? (Please read my earlier text again!) All music styles have different aims and different possibilities. I believe that electronic dance music have endless of possibilities, not only in the production phase, but also in the live moment. There are so much more you can do “live” than playing instruments (that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a good addition). Once again it’s up to the artist to find the reasons and the goals with their live performance, OUR main aim have always been to be able to change the energy of the track depending on our own mood and the mood of the dancefloor … it’s then the interactivity starts and this is one of the golden moments of music, when the artist and the audience gets into one!
This is very similar to a good dj … a good dj have a great knowledge about his/her records and can build up feelings and stories within the dj set. When we play live we do that but with our own music AND instead of using full tracks we have all the tracks divided in 16 separate channels instead of one. Once again, this is just one way to see it and I’m NOT trying to preach how everyone should do it … you should always do it your way BUT you should do something and you should do it for a reason!!!
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On 2006-07-14 11:43, Acidhive wrote:
Think about this: Psytrance is electronic music foremost. Can you see an artist performing effects like timestretch, phaser, echoes etc. etc. live? And how in the hell are you going to play the fast synthriffs like for example some full-on tracks have? Think about it. To an extent, not even Son Kite can play all things live. It's just a fact, that's what you get when you play electronic music. I saw Kraftwerk live in the Minimum Maximum tour and even they (with 4 people) didn't play everything live. Now that's saying something. And in the part where they did 'The Robots' they're not there anymore and not even playing the song live. You see their robot versions. And the crowd? They loved it.
And in the end, isn't it all about the music? As I said before, I'd rather see an artist play a perfect set for me from a cd or something then see him make countless mistakes in his liveperformance. But hey, that's me talking, and I'm a soundfetishist.
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Thanks for giving us a perfect example of an extremely innovative group that in a very early stage made something different on stage, taking both the live concept and the live music one step further! They took the concept of play back to the maximum and did something great and totally innovative of it. As I said before there isn’t one way of playing live and there shouldn’t be one way … what it should be is something interesting for the crowed.
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On 2006-07-14 12:29, papay wrote:
honestly i think nobody cares is it live or not if the sound is good it doesn t matter how it is played.
and about son kite well i have never understand your point you explain in your second album how you play one track cd and one "live" so you use cd which definetly kills the whole live concept plz explain?
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Everyone speak for themselves! Everything works together, everything affect everything. If people care about something this creates a difference, lead to innovative things and solutions … if not the spiral goes downwards! When nobody cares, the people that wants to do a difference move on, move on to places where they find similar minded people with the same vision. I love trance and I believe in a development of trance and trance parties, but we need a change!
Papay, we’ve played live in many many different ways … and since our second album we’ve changed our way of playing live several of times … at the moment we’re actually taking a new step with our live performance. Every time we play we get new ideas how we can play in the future, sometime we make small changes sometimes bigger … sometimes we talk about a change for many years before we do it … this is a never ending creative process inside Marcus and my head … this is the beauty of creativity and art, you never know where it will end and you shouldn’t know!
If you read my previous post:
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Nor music or the way of performing music should be a fixed or static thing … the key to creative happiness is to keep all possible doors open, and this is mostly an opposite thing to being lazy!
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Time to go …
Seb
Smile! |
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Seb
Son Kite
Started Topics :
47
Posts :
207
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 14:19
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One thing I’ve noticed in some of the posts is that many people see the electronic music as something without live elements in the production phase, which I find very wrong. All possibilities to play live on stage should also be used to create and compose music in the studio. You can play with the synthesizers … they very often have a keyboard;) But even more important, the whole point with making music is to transit your feelings into the music during the musical process and you don’t need to use standard instruments to create a livepossibilty … midicontrollers, computer keyboards, toys, shoes, microphones … you can basically use anything you want to do something spontaneous … sometimes it doesn’t sounds so good the first time, but then you practise until you have it!!!
Smile! |
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fregle
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
982
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 14:45
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On 2006-07-13 23:21, Dovla wrote:
one thing I also notice is that although trance is probably the easiest electronic music to beatmix we still have the most amateur DJs...when was the last time you heard someone mix one trance track onto another and then mixed the first track back again...or did a beatmix in the middle of two tracks...it's mostly 10 seconds of outto + 10 seconds of intro and even there people have problems...
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well, me, my teacher, his teacher, and all the people we taught mix like u would like it, we mix 1.5-2 minutes, if we have the time we throw it back in in the middle of the song, etc... Backspins and such we don't do, but that just doesn't work in trance... Even EFX can only be used sparsely. But if u are carefull u can use EFX on psytrance.
Well, u know what kind of remarks we regularly get from other people, and even sometimes from dj's that have more experience then us? That we are 'techno dj's' (a psytrance dj said this to me... still can't believe it) and that 'trance is not made to be mixed like that' and 'psytrance is already so full that u can't mix it without creating chaos' (those guys apparently never heard of EQ), and other such remarks... We were very surprised at those remarks... We thought that we were sucky dj's (and we were, we still aren't good dj's at all if u compare us to really good dj's), but in psytrance we already did much more then the guys who were mixing for years before we started (some of those guys couldn't pitchbend, i was gobsmacked)... On the other hand it's already much better then 6-8 years ago!! The new dj's who are coming in the scene do take mixing seriously and are training they're skills like they should (well, most of them anyway), and a lot of the older guys notice that and started honing they're skills too... It's an old attitude that's luckily dying out... slowly... |
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fregle
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
982
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 15:10
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On 2006-07-14 14:19, Seb wrote:
One thing I’ve noticed in some of the posts is that many people see the electronic music as something without live elements in the production phase, which I find very wrong. All possibilities to play live on stage should also be used to create and compose music in the studio. You can play with the synthesizers … they very often have a keyboard;) But even more important, the whole point with making music is to transit your feelings into the music during the musical process and you don’t need to use standard instruments to create a livepossibilty … midicontrollers, computer keyboards, toys, shoes, microphones … you can basically use anything you want to do something spontaneous … sometimes it doesn’t sounds so good the first time, but then you practise until you have it!!!
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Ur forgetting that a lot of the newer psytrance acts have virtually no budget... They don't have hardware synths, they have a midi controller... And if ur computer is not the newest and best installed flash gordon pc u will have a latency of around 70ms... U can lower that, but then u have to cut out all reverb, and bounce down or freeze most of ur instruments... As u undoubtably know even 70ms is VERY annoying if u try to play at a decent speed... So a lot of those budding artists just can't 'play' they're synths like u propose them to do... They have to do everything in steptime... |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 15:22
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@ Seb
I agree with the things u r saying man, but partially they are pretty utopic, and I will explain why..
I was and from time to time still perform with a drummer. At the times of our peak, when we had pretty much performances going on, we even debated the possibility of adding a live bass player on the expence of the static original basslines that are in the tracks. Ofcourse this never shifted off, and moreover, even us 2 ppl had very hard time to get bookings because of the equipment costs.
I agree with you about feelings and emotion given by artist playing live and I agree also that mistakes are part of live and are lovely in a way.. But I really think that Trance scene ( at least ) is completely not ready for that - not financially, and more important there is no interest for creativity or change of the existant way of doing things.
I have performed my live with Danni for few years in many "brave" outfits that decided to make some change and had the guts to put their money on the stake, it only benefitted them in the end of the day, since there is very little that compares to the energy created by killer drummer live on stage... But for every one that dared to bring us - there were 10 or 20 that wouldnt...
So when u say that yo, think of a platform u want to perform on, get yourself equipment and learn how to use it, u forget a very important thing - that this is a catch 22 here, and as long as organizations and labels dont give much appreciation to live performances, it will stay the way it is now.
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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rumble pack / motion drive
Rumble Pack
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
270
Posted : Jul 14, 2006 16:09
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My point of view of this whole issue:
First of all i have big respect for Son Kite for their way to perform live. I had the chance to see them last Year at Ozora festival when they played right after us. To bring such a amount of equipment, and not asking the hilarous prices as other acts are dooing, needs really lot of respect. I recognized aswell, the stuff they do live is really something special, and ppl like it alot.
But there are some points where i dont agree, or where i see the reason why not everybody can or want to do a live act like these two guys do.
First of all its the musical knowlegde. Seb is playing violine, a instrument. So here comes the first thign...lot of the "new" producers cant play a instrument, sometimes they cant even read they keys...(im one of those 
This means all these producers cant play a instrument live..so this option is gone.
Another reason why producers maybe are not able to do something special, is the time factor..for me this is the biggest problem. It might sound as a lousy excuse, but its not.
Not everybody can make a living of this scene, means they have to follow daytime jobs, as I do for example. So..i come home from work, then i need to produce, i have a wife, i have friends etc...and if i want to release one day a album or something, it needs to be made. So in all this squized timescale, i really..but really, cant find time to arrange a smart live act...i mean really something specail
Because playing the tracks from abelton live what lot ppl are dooing isnt really that specail.
And now my point of view, why its actually not really necessary to play really live:
I red something befor, human Blue said once: " a liveact is a bit kind of a vernisage...you show your new art". And thats the way i see it too...and aswel what i expect most of all when i watch a live act from someone else
I want to hear 2 hours music from the same artist. I want to hear the latest stuff, stuff i never heard, and at the end maybe some of the biggest hits. For me thats what you really can expect, and thats completle enough for me. for me, thats the main purpose of a live act.
And i think for lot of other ppl too, and thats why its not done alot.
But still, these ppl who are dooing it the hard way, have my biggest respect.
www.myspace.com/motiondrive
http://www.myspace.com/rumblepacknaturalflowmotiondrive |
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