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shamanism in trance
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Nobita
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
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371
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 05:37
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There is no evidence that there are ways to attain shamanic levels of experience without the use of psychedelics. It could be true, but how does one go around proving that? And by shamanic, I don't mean just slightly altered. McKenna spent a large part of his life seeking out shamans and studying shamanic cultures, and in the end he was of the opinion that even though not all shamans use psychedelic substances, all real shamans do.
  Row row row your boats gently down the stream; merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream. |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 06:45
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On 2005-12-29 21:39, nolightatend wrote:
So now we getting closer, actually these Shamans used psychedelic drugs, to drug prayers and themselfs, since psycho active drugs hit nerve system which can cause visual disorders or hallucinations, the colours of decorations we all use can be rooted within psychedelic drugs rather Shamanic culture itself, repetitve layouts are probably coming from same roots, since person under drug influence can easily enjoy any kind of music while repetitive one is easier to produce, while was no sequencer and not synthesizers, drums could be used only for monotonic repetitive music.
So basically from my point of view the root is psychedelic drugs, you just prove it with every post in here.
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But look at the art of the !kung bushmen of southwest Africa. Their artwork bears strong similarity to hallucinogen vision inspired art, but comes from other means, namely TRANCE DANCING. Shamanism is not the way it is because of psychedelic drugs, Shamans sometimes use psychedelic drugs because their effects are supportive of shamanic practices.
Shamanism is, I beleive a neurologically rooted phenomena, but drugs are secondary to it, only one means of attaining an end.
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There is no evidence that there are ways to attain shamanic levels of experience without the use of psychedelics. It could be true, but how does one go around proving that? And by shamanic, I don't mean just slightly altered. McKenna spent a large part of his life seeking out shamans and studying shamanic cultures, and in the end he was of the opinion that even though not all shamans use psychedelic substances, all real shamans do.
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Wow, that has to be one of the most outrageous, ignorant statments I have ever heard. Who are you (or McKenna, if he in fact said that) or any westerner to judge the experiences of a shaman operating in the context of another culture? What qualifications do have to speak with such expertise on shamans the world over?
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Nobita
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
371
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 07:54
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I'm not saying I agree with Mckenna, since I don't have all the data and didn't do the research, but on the other hand the opposite position : ie. shamans can assume their roles without the use of psychedelic plants, is also un-proven. But we can experience the effects of the psychedelic shamanism first hand whereas with other methods verification is much more difficult. I tend to sympathize with McKenna's position though, seeing as he is one of the few who actually spent alot of time going around the world, talking to various shamans and being in close contact with various shamanistic traditions. Perhaps the source of your outrage is that we don't share the same conception of what a shaman is or should be, and also that we have reverse conceptions of the phenomenon of shamanism/psychedelics. You think the use of psychedelics was introduced to enhance an already existant shamanism, whereas I would rather maintain that it was the effect of psychedelic substance on humanity that caused the strong presence of shamanistic traditions across the globe and time. Peace.
Row row row your boats gently down the stream; merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream. |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 09:45
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Its all the same song and dance. As you are me, and you are him and we are all together. Koo kooo ka chu
Some call it tomato, others potato. And the more real, the less the definitions matter.
Its all the same dance maaaan.
And it IS in the groove of the tabla, oh yes and the beauty of samba. Groove on trancer, it is also in a lullaby, groove is in the heart.
So in the end though we all bang different drums our hearts reach to the same places.
shaman shamantra mantra
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 14:40
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On 2005-12-30 07:54, Demezriel wrote:
I'm not saying I agree with Mckenna, since I don't have all the data and didn't do the research, but on the other hand the opposite position : ie. shamans can assume their roles without the use of psychedelic plants, is also un-proven. But we can experience the effects of the psychedelic shamanism first hand whereas with other methods verification is much more difficult. I tend to sympathize with McKenna's position though, seeing as he is one of the few who actually spent alot of time going around the world, talking to various shamans and being in close contact with various shamanistic traditions. Perhaps the source of your outrage is that we don't share the same conception of what a shaman is or should be, and also that we have reverse conceptions of the phenomenon of shamanism/psychedelics. You think the use of psychedelics was introduced to enhance an already existant shamanism, whereas I would rather maintain that it was the effect of psychedelic substance on humanity that caused the strong presence of shamanistic traditions across the globe and time. Peace.
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Hmmm. I guess there was no need for me to be outraged as it seems you have given some thought to this. Still, I think it is more likely that "shamanic states" were discovered through people starving or being injured and having visionary experiences. After all it is more common for people to go hungry than for people to decide to sample a random new mushroom that they know nothing about.
As to the issue of proof..... what would consitite proof of a shamanic state of consciousness? There is now way to prove the existance of any experience inside a persons mind, all that can be measured is behavior and physiological stuff. Subjective reports of visions had using non-drug mind alteration techniques would certainly seem to indicate that these can be as powerful as psychedelics, although they do tend to take a lot more work and/or require more adversity to achieve (you are not going to see me starving myself or sticking knives thu my flesh any time soon!)
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 18:43
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@nolightatend
Mantik,
I accept that there are things we can't see or understand, there things like God for exmpale which can't be defined by science. Although the main conflict within me is, how do i know whether person speaks truth or not while he/she pretend to have special powers. There must be a test of somekind? You can freely answer me via PM since it have nothing with this thread.
from my point of view, another person is not able to show you the truth, because it doesnt exist. truth is only, what you make of it. this the reason why people like to have different opinions about somethings, and both think the are right, and the other site must be wrong, but the world is not as simple that you can call things "right" and "wrong". because its relative to the point of view. this means that all the answers are only inside of you, because you give the question in that way only you are possible to do to yourself.
other people just can help you finding the way, not more.
every big person in human history had a vision. and they believed into their vision, not important if its wrong or right. this is only the way to describe some things in a black-and-white-modell. but modells and explanations in syntaxes are just raw drawings from the existing universe made from am individual low-dimensional little point of view. communication to yourself is much easier and maybe much harder as communication to other beeings, if humans had nothing like languages, they would dramatically minimize their interaction too, even more misunderstandings.
For wars, i do not agree with you since wars is the only tool for progress human have found so far. We can discuss it for ages, i do understand that some humanitarian instincts are in you, although i find it not in time and place, probably it's some what a guilt for past century, whole europe feel now.
yeah, i define wars as destructions, and a form of desctructions is on the other site a birth of somethings new which is rasing up from the room a desctruction has done. so i think we feeling about the same thing. i just ask myself if it wouldnt be possible to raise up something (progress) without the destructive character. but here again: people like to hold their opinions, they go and truly believe their truth is "right" and the other peoples truth is "wrong". the ignore that our world is not static. its relative to every different person, this is the big multiexistense of all things.
the question is: what is reality?
is it something we will never know?
is it the sum of all truthes inside of every beeing?
and if there is a rest, or a difference?
if your senses are so dramatically depend on our interpretation of it, will we possible to influence our informations we get trough the senses?
I try to see or understand the world from God's point of view, it should be balanced
interesting point of view indeed.
anyway keep on posting here.  |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 20:40
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@nolightatend
the healing is possible, but not like in fairy tale movies like hands on etc... but anyhow, for a few this might be possible.
the chinese chi-philosophy is for example from a western point of view, irrational. chi is the world for energy in form of blood, water, air, but also soul, mind,... energy. = chi. chi is like everything.
well, this chi-based eastern healing-methods like accupuncture, healing-meditation, rolfing, ect... have ages of tradition, kept and improved and also lost by the hands of each generation. some of them are also known here, and they work indeed. they try to activate the mental forces of the humans, because they believe that the mentalilty is the key to feel sick or not.
in our western world, the big health institutions have solutions for healing, but have no solutions for reducing the roots why people get sick. it is also a profit-orianted dynamic. people which are not sick, dont buy pills. this doesnt mean that all western medicine-work is crap. in fact its very advanced today. but it stays within its own boundaries and has economic dependence.
ethnic clans in the woods, seem to be primitive with all their magic-shaman blabla etc. but be carefull to make a picture about them. this people life in the wild. you can be sure that the life is hard there, they are directly connected with the nature (the few which are not influenced by us today too much). i dont think that such humans would waste time and energy into things which doesnt make sense in their way to arrange their comfort in the wilderness jungles. |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 22:03
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Thus we live in human reality world, whereas the only possible way to evolve is to eliminate opposition.
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Compromise does happen from time to time.... 
Dont you think that's a bit of a sweeping statement?
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I'm realist, i believe in what i see in most of the cases, never seen person healing someone else by reading prayers, these things shamans did? aren't them? For me its a big big lie.
Then if these shamans can't heal or do anything above regular human powers why are them so important? No some of you trully believe that these shamans have powers above mine your yours.
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So do you believe that talking to a psychologist is an effective treatment for depression (statistics show that it in fact is). So why do you insist that shamans have some mystical power beyond what a western psychologist has before you will accept them. Maybe prayers can cure through belief?
It is well established that depression and negative affect leave one more vulnerable to disease and weaken the immune system, so it is quite possible that a shaman could facilliate healing through purely psychological means.
Furthermore, shamans are generally experts on the herbs and plants available in their local area, and their healing properties, so their powers are not at all limited to the spiritual relm. |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 22:14
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I think psy trance is obviously connected in some way to shamanism. I mean since many of the psy trance producers themselves are interested in shamans and things like that, well duh!, ofcourse. The connection starts there. You get producers that bring back to the studio the mystical experiences and tales of the inexpresable which are later played in big parties in the dance floor.
Obviously not everybody is as into it as some individuals are. But in the psy trance community, interests in shamanism is a common theme. Go visit a country music forum or a pop music forum and see how many people are interested in shamanism. That might provide a clue. The music we listen goes hand in hand with the interests we have.
Listen, how many psy trance tracks for example have a sample of Terrence Mckenna? now on the other hand try and find one track with a sample of terrence in all of these styles combined: rock, hipihop, jazz, classical, death metal, country, pop, reggetton. good luck
Its obvious that the <<<PSYCHEDELIC>>> trance community is full of people interested in mind expanding, alien ufo, mystical shamanic vibes and sonic hallucination type stuff. The tracks are full of mind expanding or mystical messages, tribal prayer chants and things like that.
Maybe now its more divided, but the roots like in GOA.. wow, come on.
So with so many psy trancers occilating in these funky mystical frequencies well the dance floor at some parties really does have the potential to become a vehicle for trascendence into other planes of existence with loop holes into other dimensions that probably have a lot in common to at least some of the shamanic practices of some cultures. Shamanism is just a word, there is not only one technique.
Like the Huichol Indians in Mexico that eat peyote in their ceremonies, well they bang a drum and chant. A friend of mine flew like 10 of these Huichol indians to Japan for a psychedelic trance party(i think he called it a ritual) far out stuff, you don't see that in other styles of music so much. Though don't get me wrong, I think all music, and all areas of life and just about everything can be a door to the mystical experiences.
A bit off topic (no trance), but
For a real shaman, take for example the famous mazatec mushroom healer Maria Sabina.
THE REAL DEAL.
She tryed the mushrooms first when she was six years old by mistake from hunger. Anyways, it seems like she discovered the "shamans" path on her own.
Here are some translated quotes from her, I think they are really beautiful:
"The mushrooms give me the power of universal contemplation. I can see
from the origin. I can arrive where the world is born."
"I cure with Language. Nothing else. I am a Wise Woman. Nothing else."
"It's that in me there is no sorcery, there is no anger, there are no lies. Because I don't have garbage, I don't have dust. "
"There is a world beyond ours, a world that is far away, nearby, and
invisible. And there it is where God lives, where the dead live, the
spirits and the saints, a world where everything has already happened
and everything is known. That world talks. It has a language of its
own. I report what it says. The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand
and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the
sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way I can understand. I ask them and
they answer me. When I return from the trip that I have taken with
them, I tell what they have told me and what they have shown me."
"Millions of things I saw and I knew. I knew and saw God: an immense
clock that ticks, the spheres that go slowly around, and inside the
stars, the earth, the entire universe, the day and the night, the cry
and the smile, the happiness and the pain. He who knows to the end of
the secret of the 'teo-nanácatl' can even see that infinite
clockwork."
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furthur
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
45
Posts :
1383
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 22:19
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On 2005-12-30 20:10, nolightatend wrote:
I'm realist, i believe in what i see in most of the cases, never seen person healing someone else by reading prayers, these things shamans did? aren't them? For me its a big big lie. |
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have you seen that the earth is round? have you seen that it revolves around the sun? have you seen electromagnetic fields affecting mechanics?
why should you believe in these things then, if you do?
i find ppl that say they only believe in what they have personally witnessed a bit strange, because it would then seem they believe very little of what is assumed by our society for any type of meaningful discourse.
also, as far as healing goes, whether alternative or "scientific"-based.
healing will usually only work if the person believes in it, which makes your claim that alternative healing did not heal you unsurprising. conversely (or maybe not so conversely after all), the same could be said for modern western medicine. there are countless stories of new miracle cures curing people until their doctors tell them that unfortunately the cure is a dud, and the patient succumbs shortly afterwards.
all this to show us that someone with a winner attitude will always fare better than someone with a loser attitude (to use raw's words)
Load Universe into Cannon. Aim at Brain. Fire.
www.ganesha.ca |
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shamanizer
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
367
Posted : Jan 2, 2006 13:01
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Shahar wrote: " Personally, I tend to think, based on my long years of observing and experiencing the trance culture, that it tried in a way to fill up gaps- areas that we unconsciously feel that are missing on our lives. For example- the tribe. Our important social units these days are mainly the individual and the immediate family- after that it's pretty much the state, a very big unit. That leaves a big gap, and our historical/genetic/psychological memory tells us that we need a tribe. A party is a tribal event (as this forum is a tribal unit to an extent..).
Another example can be the connection to nature or the need for a spiritual life- both are things modern western life lacks and trance culture tried to supply. "
I very much agree with this paragraph. In my opinion it is hard to define if we lack these things unconsciously or consciously. Maybe both cases are correct depending on individual. If one is spiritually awaken the longing is conscious, if not the longing is unconscious.
I also would like to see more people cherishing these values, in this way the world most likely would be a better place, however, in this world situation this is more of utopia.
And there is no doubt if shamans still exist today. They do, in many places around the globe.
We have travelled too far from the mother nature. Even though humankind has achieved very much along with developing science, the lacking of above mentioned values has lead to turmoil and the future doesn't look so bright for us. Especially the disrespect towards nature is extremely damaging, and not only for us.
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