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shamanism in trance
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ganjagil
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
858
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 10:28
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Quote:
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On 2005-12-29 05:08, 14-year old e-tard wrote:
I believe that people have been dancing to music long before shamans jumped on the bandwagon. I do not believe that shamanism and the subgenre of underground dance music that is called "psytrance" are related. They are two different things. It is down to each person to make a subjective "analysis", based on their experiences. I have met people that see a connection mainly because they believe they are the missing link, but personaly I do not see a connection between shamanism and underground dance music.
If I take mind altering substances, I might see a connection...if I take more, I might see fractals...etc...if I take lots of drugs, I might see flying pigs...but hang on...flying pigs don't exist. 
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what is inexistent? Everything is possible in the world inside, only if you dream can you make it possible! The trance and dance culture was fully based on shamanic beats and that's what makes it special it takes you to places were other music does not...You have no idea of the concept of Trance if you say it's because of drugs that we see and experience this! I think that actually you never experienced the real thing my friend...
bom
Ganja
  Your sound, is your music, is your soul keep them all on the right track!
Please Check our music at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=438956
www.soulkontakt.com
contact :soulkontakt@hotmail.com |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
797
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 13:55
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Your opinion about trance and dance culture being fully based on shamanic beats, is simply your opinion, not a fact. Strictly speaking, all subgenres of underground electronic dance music evolved from Giorgio Moroder and his "from here to eternity" LP. If you want to listen to the first arpeggiated synth line over a repetitive kick, have a listen to Donna Summer and "I feel love". Now if Donna Summer is a shaman, you may be on to something 
What makes this music special is subjective to each individual, its not shamanism or what have you.
What are shamanic beats anyway? Have shamans copyrighted repetitive drums so any kind of repetitive hypnotic music is considered to be shamanic?
And if you want me to take you seriously, leave the drugstore psychoanalysis outside of this conversation Ganja. Just because you want to believe your theories are true, does not mean that they are, or that you know what I have experienced in my life.
Me>You |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 18:20
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yes, they exist!
a good friend of mine has choosen this way.
after finishing becoming a german medicine-doctor and master of businesslaw (he was one of the few extraordinary talented schoolkids) he found out that our world consists of more things as we can see with our head.
he startet to teach himself into shamanism and today he is called what people describe as a reiki-master (please dont ask me what kind of school, he told me he is something like a sexuality-reiki-part-master in, has nothing to do with sex by the way).
i had several experiences in shamanic meditation with him, i thank him the most beautiful day in my life, where i start to see that the trees direct the energy lines from the earth like beams into the scy, believe it or not, i experienced it, without any crap drugs, but its more a "feel" like a "see". he just needed to open my eyes.
he knows that i produce trancemusic too and we compared out theories about trance dance. he showed me a simple one hand drum he usually hits around 70 bpm per minute. you can hit is this way for hours, while sitting falling into a deep daydream.
if you take the double speed of this ritualrythm you get 140 bpm, an often taken basic speed of trance music. you can have the same experiences with both ways at the end, the speed makes no difference. but you can also have a complete different experience, it depends on your idea you want to get.
on trance partys you sometimes see (they got rare) very relaxed dancers, only taking every second kick, they look like completely liquid, i saw once a very special nice girl starting to speak senseless blabla and closing the eyes while dancing realy deeply. what an optical pleasure, and much more beautifull as watching one of the mad grey-faced zombies you met today on partys, rushing down all the energies of the body into pure sweat (dont get me wrong, i think loosing aggressions and tensions is an important part of dancing, and is the fundamental basic of getting into the relaxing and beauty morning, after a dark and powerfull night, a shame that many djs today always want to push you only into the first basic "power-level" and dont know the higher levels. in that case, some know: thank you all  )
anyway. shamanism is just a part of all. and reiki is a part of it, chakras, religions, praying, etc.. at the end there is all no difference. arts like shamanism and shamanistic rituals like trance-dancing etc. are just forms and gates to show you an entrance to the truth of the world, which is kept in allready in ourselfes, in our dreams, our feelings. if you practice reiki or meditation without the right idea of it, you better gave up and ask yourself first.
you dont need any big organisation, where you will be teached into something in a large group. this can help, and is sometimes dangerous, but you have accept that every answer is kept in your inner soul/mind/heart, whatever.
some like to do chakra-things, stones, shamanistic, quiet meditation, i have found my way for example in martial arts, because i can open my channels better while moving my body, you would be amazed how many movements of some kungfu styles are similar to some movements people on dancefloors do naturally (if they found the flow), again believe it or not. but believe always in yourself!
all is one and one is all. everything is one.
god is you, good is everywhere. he is inside of you. you are a part of him, like your neighboor, like the trees, the earth. everything. and he is a part of you. finally he is not existing, because there is no difference between everything and nothing. there is only one: one. and at the same time nothing. (chinese zen-meditation has a good explanantion for it)
the overall and generaly truth many people wont accept and dont believe. and is hidden in every myth, religion, meditation-way... etc. etc. is that you are free to be and to do what you want. you can be rich = now. you can be poor = now. you can dead = now, and you can be alive = now.
part "quee-innuendo":
you can be everything you want to be, just turn yourself into anything that you could ever be (how i love this song), be free with your ego be free, surrender your ego, be free to yourself
there are so many things there are to explore and so beautifull you things people could make of it.
hour world is a little bit damaged today isnt it? senseless ugly wars (for god, what kind of pure silliness), destroying of nature, hungry people. people which are rich and not lucky.
isnt it obviously that something, maybe... just when you think about it a little bit with the human-super intelligence rational way... that something got a little bit wrong today. could that be, that we missed something? just a little?
maybe we should more listen to our hearts and souls? listen more inside of us? and what we find there?
i can say you: love. only love. endless oceans of love.
ist not easy to keep and to reach it. but you only need to taste a bit of it. open your eyes. be carefull.
everything inside of you will come out. concentrate on something, and it will happen. believe in something and it will become true. be carefull and surrender your fears.
someones able to follow me? good
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 18:25
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Quote:
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On 2005-12-29 13:59, nolightatend wrote:
Do shamans exist? or its a fairy tale made up for westerns to buy native american, african and asian products?
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They do exist. For a chronological description of the meeting between western society and shamanism through texts written about shamanism by westerners (starting in 1535) you can check the following book:
- Narby, J. & Huxley, F. (eds.), (2004) Shamans Through Time: 500 Years on the Path to Knowledge (Penguin)
I can also refer you to quite a few anthropologists who spent a lot of time with Shamans. Some of them I had the chance to meet personally.
It is in fact very interesting to see that shamanism (As I written in my previous post- I mean here all societies giving a major role to all kinds of magico-religious practitioners) was and still is a very wide-spread phenomena (present mostly in hunting and gathering societies). The universality of shamanism is something that is not easy to explain. Winkelman (check my earlier post for reference) offers an interesting explanation that has to do with similar ecological and socioeconomic conditions in similar human societies and the universality of the functioning of the human mind- psychological and physiological- that is, the proven therapeutic effect of altered states of consciousness. He suggests that probably accidentally entering an altered state of consciousness (through states of near-starvation, lack of sleep, intensive physical action, injury or accidental ingestion of hallucinogens) revealed the positive sides related to these states and made people want to experience them again. Once the benefits were realized they were also institutionalized socially- what we call shamanism. For more detailed explanation check his research.
Hope this helps.
Btw, from my own life experience, being naive is a better path to knowledge than cynicism. Just a little advice.
---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Psy_mystic
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
15
Posts :
448
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 18:35
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Quote:
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hour world is a little bit damaged today isnt it? senseless ugly wars (for god, what kind of pure silliness), destroying of nature, hungry people. people which are rich and not lucky.
isnt it obviously that something, maybe... just when you think about it a little bit with the human-super intelligence rational way... that something got a little bit wrong today. could that be, that we missed something? just a little?
maybe we should more listen to our hearts and souls? listen more inside of us? and what we find there?
i can say you: love. only love. endless oceans of love.
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you said it all my friend!
put a smile on my face
peace
"Detox is for queers" |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 19:06
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On 2005-12-29 18:39, nolightatend wrote:
Let's leave my beliefs behind, does shamanism relates to repetitive electronic music or it's just nature of modern dance music?
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I believe it might in some way.
Music used by Shamans is repetitive and there are very good evidence that repetitive music, even without the use of psychedelics, can lead to altered states of consciousness. You can check the work of ethnomusicologist Dave Olsen among the Warao of the Orinoco Delta in Venezuela, or you can take my word for it based on my own experiences.
Basically, we can notice two ways to alter human state of consciousness that have to do with our senses (meaning without using psychedelics or fasting, etc.). One is through sensory deprivation (meditation for example) and the other is through sensory overload (repetitive loud music for example). The trance experience correlates to the second of course. This method is used by shamans, and I believe it has been used by humans all over the world for a long time (a Jewish Hasidic dance is also a good example). The article I offered by Jonathan Hill offers some good explanation about these aspects.
There are other connections, and I explained my views on them on my first post.
Unfortunately, there still isn't good and thorough research on trance culture (there are some works, but personally I don't think they really go deep and grasp the depth of the culture), and it might be a bit late to make one. I thought of doing it myself, but my academic career has taken me some place else.
I can only offer my ideas and insights based on long experience and observation. As I said many times, maybe I'll write a book about it one day, though I really don't know where I will find the time
---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 21:12
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Dont forget visual art! Who could fail to notice the similarties between psy deco preferences and paintings and art from the amazon which the natives themselves claim is inspired by and made for visuals on DMT containing preparations (Ayahuasca/yage, or snuffs like ebna)? Those arts sure do look like DMT visuals to me! Furthermore, in the music department "Ayahuasqueros" have icaros (songs) which are used to brighten or dim "visuals" from Ayahuasca. I am not particularly skeptical of this claim because I know from experience that music with certain qualities (namely classic GOA qualities) really, really brings out the visuals for me. So if both cultures have caught on to the possibility (i really do think it is possible) of using sound's effects on the brain to modulate the effect of ingested drugs, that is a pretty interesting similarity.
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furthur
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
45
Posts :
1383
Posted : Dec 29, 2005 23:41
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Quote:
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On 2005-12-29 21:39, nolightatend wrote:
So basically from my point of view the root is psychedelic drugs, you just prove it with every post in here.
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some shamanic cultures, especially those from the old world, and from the north of it, had very limited (if any) access to psychedelic plants; yet, they had many other "techniques of ecstasy" to induce trance states.
Load Universe into Cannon. Aim at Brain. Fire.
www.ganesha.ca |
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kikola
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
93
Posts :
764
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 00:35
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Quote:
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On 2005-12-29 18:20, Kitnam wrote:
yes, they exist!
a good friend of mine has choosen this way.
after finishing becoming a german medicine-doctor and master of businesslaw (he was one of the few extraordinary talented schoolkids) he found out that our world consists of more things as we can see with our head.
he startet to teach himself into shamanism and today he is called what people describe as a reiki-master (please dont ask me what kind of school, he told me he is something like a sexuality-reiki-part-master in, has nothing to do with sex by the way).
i had several experiences in shamanic meditation with him, i thank him the most beautiful day in my life, where i start to see that the trees direct the energy lines from the earth like beams into the scy, believe it or not, i experienced it, without any crap drugs, but its more a "feel" like a "see". he just needed to open my eyes.
he knows that i produce trancemusic too and we compared out theories about trance dance. he showed me a simple one hand drum he usually hits around 70 bpm per minute. you can hit is this way for hours, while sitting falling into a deep daydream.
if you take the double speed of this ritualrythm you get 140 bpm, an often taken basic speed of trance music. you can have the same experiences with both ways at the end, the speed makes no difference. but you can also have a complete different experience, it depends on your idea you want to get.
on trance partys you sometimes see (they got rare) very relaxed dancers, only taking every second kick, they look like completely liquid, i saw once a very special nice girl starting to speak senseless blabla and closing the eyes while dancing realy deeply. what an optical pleasure, and much more beautifull as watching one of the mad grey-faced zombies you met today on partys, rushing down all the energies of the body into pure sweat (dont get me wrong, i think loosing aggressions and tensions is an important part of dancing, and is the fundamental basic of getting into the relaxing and beauty morning, after a dark and powerfull night, a shame that many djs today always want to push you only into the first basic "power-level" and dont know the higher levels. in that case, some know: thank you all )
anyway. shamanism is just a part of all. and reiki is a part of it, chakras, religions, praying, etc.. at the end there is all no difference. arts like shamanism and shamanistic rituals like trance-dancing etc. are just forms and gates to show you an entrance to the truth of the world, which is kept in allready in ourselfes, in our dreams, our feelings. if you practice reiki or meditation without the right idea of it, you better gave up and ask yourself first.
you dont need any big organisation, where you will be teached into something in a large group. this can help, and is sometimes dangerous, but you have accept that every answer is kept in your inner soul/mind/heart, whatever.
some like to do chakra-things, stones, shamanistic, quiet meditation, i have found my way for example in martial arts, because i can open my channels better while moving my body, you would be amazed how many movements of some kungfu styles are similar to some movements people on dancefloors do naturally (if they found the flow), again believe it or not. but believe always in yourself!
all is one and one is all. everything is one.
god is you, good is everywhere. he is inside of you. you are a part of him, like your neighboor, like the trees, the earth. everything. and he is a part of you. finally he is not existing, because there is no difference between everything and nothing. there is only one: one. and at the same time nothing. (chinese zen-meditation has a good explanantion for it)
the overall and generaly truth many people wont accept and dont believe. and is hidden in every myth, religion, meditation-way... etc. etc. is that you are free to be and to do what you want. you can be rich = now. you can be poor = now. you can dead = now, and you can be alive = now.
part "quee-innuendo":
you can be everything you want to be, just turn yourself into anything that you could ever be (how i love this song), be free with your ego be free, surrender your ego, be free to yourself
there are so many things there are to explore and so beautifull you things people could make of it.
hour world is a little bit damaged today isnt it? senseless ugly wars (for god, what kind of pure silliness), destroying of nature, hungry people. people which are rich and not lucky.
isnt it obviously that something, maybe... just when you think about it a little bit with the human-super intelligence rational way... that something got a little bit wrong today. could that be, that we missed something? just a little?
maybe we should more listen to our hearts and souls? listen more inside of us? and what we find there?
i can say you: love. only love. endless oceans of love.
ist not easy to keep and to reach it. but you only need to taste a bit of it. open your eyes. be carefull.
everything inside of you will come out. concentrate on something, and it will happen. believe in something and it will become true. be carefull and surrender your fears.
someones able to follow me? good
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YES!!!! )))
All we need is love.
Sonic Cube - Cloud Buster ( Andre Absolut mix)
@Iono_Music
http://www.ionomusic.com/
Iono_Music_Shop
http://www.ionomusic.com/shop
www.ouim.net/djs/kikola |
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Nobita
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
371
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 00:46
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On 2005-12-29 21:39, nolightatend wrote:
So now we getting closer, actually these Shamans used psychedelic drugs, to drug prayers and themselfs, since psycho active drugs hit nerve system which can cause visual disorders or hallucinations, the colours of decorations we all use can be rooted within psychedelic drugs rather Shamanic culture itself, repetitve layouts are probably coming from same roots, since person under drug influence can easily enjoy any kind of music while repetitive one is easier to produce, while was no sequencer and not synthesizers, drums could be used only for monotonic repetitive music.
So basically from my point of view the root is psychedelic drugs, you just prove it with every post in here.
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Indeed, & this is one of the few points on which I agree with Terrence Mckenna... tribal gatherings involving dancing, and shamanism both have their roots firmly inplanted in the use of psychedelic plants.
Row row row your boats gently down the stream; merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream. |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Dec 30, 2005 02:10
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nolightatend, you over-simplify things, I think. It's all much much more complex. We are talking about a culture's way of grasping and conceptualizing the world around it. It's not just drugs and repetitive drums. As I wrote the place of music in these cultures is very central to every day life and to the interaction with the world around them.
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On 2005-12-30 00:40, nolightatend wrote:
Well, there always been some drugs, i've never meant LSD or something which was invented in last century.
Northern cultures, probably had some other "techniques" to achieve same state, thou i'm realy doubt, you can reach the state of drug influence without taking drugs.
I don't see anything bad in it, just this is the only connection i find between Shamanism and Psytrance, their relationship to psycho active drugs.
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I think a few people here including myself pointed out a lot of other ways of achieving altered states of consciousness.
Also I think we've raised many other points that are paralel.
rationality is just a tool and it is a problematic tool if it doesn't feed on enough information and on reliable information.
---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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