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Psychoactives & Trance Forum Proposal
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Nobita
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
371
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 02:59
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Well here goes.
Opinions on whether psychedelics and other substances are 'good' or 'bad' vary alot of course, but there is a much more important point I want to address here :
Opinion on whether psy-trance is related to substance-use, and to what degree, also varies alot. It is un-arguably arbitrary to start on the assumption that this is a topic that doesn't have anything to do with trance music.
Let us not kid ourselves. The main motivation to not start a psychoactives-forum is to maintain the 'clean' image of isratrance. Many trancers are worried about what other people think of the scene : they worry that the creation of such a forum will confirm to these others that the psy-trance scene is a druggy scene.
This may happen; but are we trying to deceive people into thinking that most party-goers in psy-trance events are sober?
The basic assumption behind the drug discussion ban here at isratrance is that psychoactives and music are not related. Well this is a rather bold statement, especially when we are talking about psychedelic trance and related genres. The history of this genre of music is interwined with that of psychedelic use, and there are many interesting subjects and topics that can be discussed on this subject. This goes for both topics which are FOR and those which are AGAINST substance use.
Yes there exists many other forums out there for discussing substance use, that is not the issue.
I am not proposing the creation of a drug-only forum, which will have no place in isratrance of course, but that of a psychoactives & trance music forum; A place to discuss experiences, the positive aspects of the psychedelic trance experience as well as the negative aspects. A place for the dispensing of wisdom when going loaded to an event for instance, or for talking about the effects of psychedelics on music creation.
I think a bit of discussion on this topic would be fruitfull instead of an automatic lock-down. Perhaps a vote could be organized at some point. I feel that this is not an irrational proposition, and that the existance of such a forum would be much appreciated by many isratrancers around the globe.
Peace!
  Row row row your boats gently down the stream; merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream. |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 03:20
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You say nothing that has not been said before.
I think you should respect the site isratrance and accept that this is the way the people behind it intended it to work.
You are wasting their time with your dialoque on a point where they have made themselves abundantly clear in the past.
If you want to discuss these things, and they are important to you - Create a new forum - It is your free right.
Drug discussion is apparently not included in the vision of the isratrance crew - and that you should respect, and by respect I mean let it be and accept it since you as I am a guest on this site.
Best Wishes
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Nobita
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
371
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 05:11
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Sure, but there's always room for discussion. Things are sometimes not set in stone.
If anybody feels like this thread is a waste of time then my apologies.
It is obvious that one could go and create a new forum, but isratrance has become the 'official' psy-trance forum so to speak, visited by many of us trancers, so I think it is important for it to encompass the whole of psy-trance culture.
I don't feel there's been a clear explanation as to why this would be such a bad thing that it could not be considered.
Of course respect goes to the isratrance crew, this is merely a suggestion for an improvement
that many might appreciate. A convincing explanation as to why this would be a bad thing for the isratrance community would be welcome but in default of that, oh well the isratrance people have the final word  Row row row your boats gently down the stream; merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream. |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 06:28
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I think drugs are a fascinating topic, but there are VERY good reasons for us to avoid projecting a public appearance of extreme absorbtion with drugs. Sure we already have that reputation, but do we really need to make a place where we manufacture by the hundred juicy quotes for yellow journalists to quote and stir up anxious parents into a state of panic about our culture?
Bluelight, Lycaeum, forums.ayahuasca.com, they all exist for a reason and that reason is so people can discuss drugs.
If you look at music discussions on those forums I think you will notice that psytrance is very popular there.
In a perfect world with freedom for people to ingest any substance they choose and discuss their experiences freely, without fear of prosecution or social stigma, we could and probably would have such a forum. But it isnt a perfect world, and we are not that free yet. Fight hard and be patient 
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 07:03
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On 2006-02-07 05:11, Demezriel wrote:
Sure, but there's always room for discussion. Things are sometimes not set in stone.
If anybody feels like this thread is a waste of time then my apologies.
It is obvious that one could go and create a new forum, but isratrance has become the 'official' psy-trance forum so to speak, visited by many of us trancers, so I think it is important for it to encompass the whole of psy-trance culture.
I don't feel there's been a clear explanation as to why this would be such a bad thing that it could not be considered.
Of course respect goes to the isratrance crew, this is merely a suggestion for an improvement
that many might appreciate. A convincing explanation as to why this would be a bad thing for the isratrance community would be welcome but in default of that, oh well the isratrance people have the final word
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Its up to the isratrance crew to either answer or lock the thread, but my general experience with isratrance is that even if we talk about drugs, whether it will be moderated or not depends on the relevancy of the drug related content in regards to music.
When you create a forum or forum rules like you suggest - you invite people who are basicly only interested in drugs to participate more.
You see, the problem is the amount of people who are into drugs seems a lot higher than the ones who are into the music. Speaking in absolute terms here (you can of course be both, in which case you will still love isratrance).
So, the problem is the huge mass of druggies out there who think they are into psytrance, but really they are not... You invite them in, create a place for them and they will multiply.
Drugs take away focus from the music and the culture itself - You see it on internet sites, and you see it in real life.
For instance, once a certain group of people arrive at a preparty the talk often turns from 100% music to 100% drugs suddenly.
I truely believe, the best way to go is to ban debates concerning drugs by default - And then, if some drug talk does pop up in a topic then you can always decide to let it be if its relevant to music in some way.
When moderating you can say "sorry, topic not allowed, read the rules" - You dont have to discuss whether something is relevant or not, and people do tend to bitch a lot when being moderated (or so is my own experience, I would rather have an absolute rule which I can bend, than a grey scale for others to interpret and use against me in a debate).
And of course I dont see any problems with suggestions either - but, how many times has this been suggested before ? Im guessing alot.
Ask yourself, dont you think the people behind this site already gave a substantial amount of thought to what you suggest ? I would think so
Best Wishes
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Cyber Punk
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
29
Posts :
759
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 08:59
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I only can quote Shahar here:
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As for drugs- there's no "no drugs" in the no-no's. And drugs are being discussed here as part of the trance experience. However- strictly drug topics were never welcomed. The Reason was that it is my belief that music has independent existence regardless of what motivated its creation. This site was always dedicated to music, I feel people can talk freely about music without anyone getting hurt (too badly anyway). I don't feel the same about drugs (and I do have some years of perspective). Now I think it's very important to discuss drugs, as dis/misinformation is the prime cause of drug damage, but this discussion should take place in places that deal with these subjects and took upon them that heavy responsibility (there are a few links on Isratrance- general/drugs, and I'm sure you are all familiar with other online communities of that sort). I personally never felt like I can take this responsibility on myself. That's why when drugs discussion arised, we always kindly asked people to take them to other more fitting places.
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Nothing to add.
-=Lead System Designer=- |
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Nobita
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
371
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 16:32
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On 2006-02-07 07:03, Krell wrote:
Drugs take away focus from the music and the culture itself - You see it on internet sites, and you see it in real life.
For instance, once a certain group of people arrive at a preparty the talk often turns from 100% music to 100% drugs suddenly.
I truely believe, the best way to go is to ban debates concerning drugs by default - And then, if some drug talk does pop up in a topic then you can always decide to let it be if its relevant to music in some way.
When moderating you can say "sorry, topic not allowed, read the rules" - You dont have to discuss whether something is relevant or not, and people do tend to bitch a lot when being moderated (or so is my own experience, I would rather have an absolute rule which I can bend, than a grey scale for others to interpret and use against me in a debate).
And of course I dont see any problems with suggestions either - but, how many times has this been suggested before ? Im guessing alot.
Ask yourself, dont you think the people behind this site already gave a substantial amount of thought to what you suggest ? I would think so
Best Wishes
Krell
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Good points! But consider the present situation : there exists an undeniable taboo on the subject of drugs. If they are brought up, topics tend to get locked rather quickly when topics on other much less trance related things (homophobia, food, etc...) don't. This isn't just any music forum, it's a forum dealing with psychedelic trance and related genres, and alot of people here are experienced in that sense and have things to discuss on the subject. This music has a special relation to psychoactives much as the psychedelic rock of the 60s, and divorcing the two seems rather artificial and contrived.
Will pure druggies really arrive in mass to start posting in a trance&psychoactives forum ? Could happen, but it's just a hypothesis among many, if it really turns out that way then close the forum and that's it; experimentation is not a thing to be shunned.
Goa parties are places where trippers are supposed to feel welcome, isratrance should maybe reflect that.
At least some relaxation on the rule enforcing concerning psychoactive discussions in the Trance forum would be good, instead of mechanically locking them down; perhaps that would be the best.
Peace
Row row row your boats gently down the stream; merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream. |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 19:33
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On 2006-02-07 16:32, Demezriel wrote:
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On 2006-02-07 07:03, Krell wrote:
Drugs take away focus from the music and the culture itself - You see it on internet sites, and you see it in real life.
For instance, once a certain group of people arrive at a preparty the talk often turns from 100% music to 100% drugs suddenly.
I truely believe, the best way to go is to ban debates concerning drugs by default - And then, if some drug talk does pop up in a topic then you can always decide to let it be if its relevant to music in some way.
When moderating you can say "sorry, topic not allowed, read the rules" - You dont have to discuss whether something is relevant or not, and people do tend to bitch a lot when being moderated (or so is my own experience, I would rather have an absolute rule which I can bend, than a grey scale for others to interpret and use against me in a debate).
And of course I dont see any problems with suggestions either - but, how many times has this been suggested before ? Im guessing alot.
Ask yourself, dont you think the people behind this site already gave a substantial amount of thought to what you suggest ? I would think so
Best Wishes
Krell
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Good points! But consider the present situation : there exists an undeniable taboo on the subject of drugs. If they are brought up, topics tend to get locked rather quickly when topics on other much less trance related things (homophobia, food, etc...) don't. This isn't just any music forum, it's a forum dealing with psychedelic trance and related genres, and alot of people here are experienced in that sense and have things to discuss on the subject. This music has a special relation to psychoactives much as the psychedelic rock of the 60s, and divorcing the two seems rather artificial and contrived.
Will pure druggies really arrive in mass to start posting in a trance&psychoactives forum ? Could happen, but it's just a hypothesis among many, if it really turns out that way then close the forum and that's it; experimentation is not a thing to be shunned.
Goa parties are places where trippers are supposed to feel welcome, isratrance should maybe reflect that.
At least some relaxation on the rule enforcing concerning psychoactive discussions in the Trance forum would be good, instead of mechanically locking them down; perhaps that would be the best.
Peace
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Like I said - It is not all or nothing, which you can also read from what Shahar wrote.
And yes, it is actually prooven that when not controlled, topics get out of hand - and its harder to shut things down again, than to open them up.
In short, I support the current strategy, and I find it both reflective and true to our culture as well as responsible and wise in respects to its future and current development.
(its basicly the same strategy we use on our own site, and it works VERY well).
Best Wishes
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 20:22
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Goa parties are places where trippers are supposed to feel welcome, isratrance should maybe reflect that.
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Yeah man, GOA is supposed to be the land of the free where social taboos are not enforced on anybody. If anything its a place to break these, a place to explore new realities without the restrictions put by mainstream society.
In any case I don't think this great forum is that bad in regards to drug censorship. I mean you can talk about altered states of mind like in the shamanism topic, I guess all you need to do is put a cloud of mysticism around it and it will be ok.
But to talk about raw sex, wide vagina and big penises... ohhh dang it. Thats is to much to handle, just cover it with a cloud of romance and call it a love. That should solve the problem.
Maybe I should feel discriminated. You know much of these anti drug taboos have its origin in Catholic religious fundamentalism. And I am from Mexico and have some Aztec blood, and well our views are different: Pick it, Pack it, Fire it up, come along
And take a hit. LOL (just kidding)
And in Aztec mythology the patron saint god of psychedelics is Xochipilli. Well he is also the god of flowers, games, music and dance. According to the Aztecs music and arts and psychedelics were somehow connected it seems. Cosmic Unity maaan.
And so we ask once again, what is it about drugs that scares people so deeply???
Anyways, respect to the isra trance team, they do a great job.
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 20:56
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On 2006-02-07 20:22, Aluxe wrote:
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Goa parties are places where trippers are supposed to feel welcome, isratrance should maybe reflect that.
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Yeah man, GOA is supposed to be the land of the free where social taboos are not enforced on anybody. If anything its a place to break these, a place to explore new realities without the restrictions put by mainstream society.
In any case I don't think this great forum is that bad in regards to drug censorship. I mean you can talk about altered states of mind like in the shamanism topic, I guess all you need to do is put a cloud of mysticism around it and it will be ok.
But to talk about raw sex, wide vagina and big penises... ohhh dang it. Thats is to much to handle, just cover it with a cloud of romance and call it a love. That should solve the problem.
Maybe I should feel discriminated. You know much of these anti drug taboos have its origin in Catholic religious fundamentalism. And I am from Mexico and have some Aztec blood, and well our views are different: Pick it, Pack it, Fire it up, come along
And take a hit. LOL (just kidding)
And in Aztec mythology the patron saint god of psychedelics is Xochipilli. Well he is also the god of flowers, games, music and dance. According to the Aztecs music and arts and psychedelics were somehow connected it seems. Cosmic Unity maaan.
And so we ask once again, what is it about drugs that scares people so deeply???
Anyways, respect to the isra trance team, they do a great job.
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You can trip very well without drugs.
Best Wishes
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Feb 7, 2006 21:43
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You can trip very well without drugs.
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And without music as well. Hey you can even dance while only imagining music in your head. So why play music?
Some people hope that they are not missing anything by not taking drugs because they don't really want to take them even though they know that they don't know the final truth about them. "And they don't want us to go in either..."
Drugs are probably more than anything just misunderstood, maybe one day we will know what they really do. Maybe its like discovering the airplane or the telescope, yeah all the first attempts crashed but in the end the trick to flying was discovered and now everybody flies all the time.
I find psycoactive drugs really interesting, but I don't trip anymore. I have enough from past experiences just to get my mind tripy. Although I wouldn't really call it real tripping. |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Feb 8, 2006 00:46
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On 2006-02-07 21:43, Aluxe wrote:
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You can trip very well without drugs.
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And without music as well. Hey you can even dance while only imagining music in your head. So why play music?
Some people hope that they are not missing anything by not taking drugs because they don't really want to take them even though they know that they don't know the final truth about them. "And they don't want us to go in either..."
Drugs are probably more than anything just misunderstood, maybe one day we will know what they really do. Maybe its like discovering the airplane or the telescope, yeah all the first attempts crashed but in the end the trick to flying was discovered and now everybody flies all the time.
I find psycoactive drugs really interesting, but I don't trip anymore. I have enough from past experiences just to get my mind tripy. Although I wouldn't really call it real tripping.
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Drugs are not a social taboo for me.
I can trip without drugs. So can others.
Enligthenment can be achieved in many ways, for some renovating old cars is a path which brings them closer to perfection.
Often people who do drugs, and seek enlightenment that way, actually end up with a rather narrowminded view on how to achieve new states of awareness. That is the price of taking the easy route to enlightenment. Ironic I think.
Isratrance is about music, and not drugs - Therefore, putting focus on drugs before music is wrong.
The effect of it is damaging as such, which has been prooven at many other sites + mailinglists through the years.
The same can be said about politics - After all, are politics not as relevant as drugs to the psychedelic culture?
If applying your logic, yes politics are relevant to us - After all, the psychedelic/alternative culture which spawned the psychedelic trance culture was foremost politicly and socially motivated at least as much as through psychedelic drugs.
I would even say more - Since, if you look back at society in the 1950ies where the beat generation started taking off the world was a totally new place.
No, hallucinogens wasnt what was new in the world, even though some drug fanatics would like to over emphasize the importance of LSD.
We had, after all, had mushrooms with us for a looong time back then.
NO - What made people change was the second world war and the advent of the atom bomb + the intercontinental rocket driven delivery system basicly starting to make a very blunt point of our impedandant global suicide as a species if we did not evolve beyond war & confrontation as tools to solve major conflicts.
So - The Atom Bomb made us evolve - we had to, in order to survive - If we would carry on with so little freedom of expression and influence on the side of the people we would be headed into nuclear holocaust.
The result is, an alternative society, outside of established norms. Lifes own way to insuring its survival - EVOLUTION.
Drugs - Nothing new there. For most people, its about the buzzzzzz in their heads more than anything else.
This site is about music though, not atom bombs, politics or drugs... It isnt about alternative treatment using crystals either, unless of course it also involves music
My view on this is, the crew of isratrance is doing an OUTSTANDING job in keeping this site on track - and I would like to say the same about Psynews.org - Keep it up
Very few things are actually not allowed here - Not because they are "taboo", and people are affraid of talking about them - but because they have to be if the content is to concern music + if we are to get along.
What you do, when you need to talk about drugs is that you go to a drug related site. Plenty of them out there.
When its about music, you come here.
When its about both, you take a chance and keep the topic open to the purpose of the site (music).
At least, that has worked for me in the past. I talked plenty of drugs, not being moderated - because it was on topic in relation to music.
This topic here, hasnt been moderated either.
Then, why is the rule absolute ? Because moderators dont want to have to write as much as I do now everytime they service us.
Best Wishes
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Feb 8, 2006 05:05
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Isratrance is about music, and not drugs - Therefore, putting focus on drugs before music is wrong.
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Putting focus on drugs before music?? I don't think Demereziel is suggesting that at all, neither am I.
Isratrance main focus is ofcourse music, but correct me if I am wrong, it also offers a space to discuss everything related to the psy trance scene. Like visual art, psyfood, party galleries, clothing, psypoems, etc There is even an off topic section.
So obviously there is friction with the drug subject otherwise it doesn't make sense that there is a policy against it. What you said about people fighting or what Cyber Punk is saying about people getting hurt and not wanting to take responsabilty makes more sense.
And for arguments sake I don't see why a section for drug talk would ruin the site, I mean just as long as you make it clear that such a section is the only place for this. So if you don't want to hear about drugs, you just avoid that section.
But I respect the policy here, the site works great anyhow as it is. But I do very much see Demereziel's point, I mean for crying out load its pyschedelic trance,
pssssyyyccchhheeddeeelliiicccc
And Krell I absolutely disagree that politics are more related to the psy trance scene than mind expanding drugs. I actually don't think politics are very psychedelic at all. But LSD, wow I can even hear groovy beats coming out of the sound of me typing in the keyboard. And would think the last thing most people want to do while they listen to koxbox in a party is talk politics, but drugs.. now there is an opportunity to bring the whole experience to another level.
You know at least lets not fool ourselves pretending the psy trance scene is not significantly related to drugs. Or pretend that psychoactives can not bring the MUSICAL experience to an absolutely mind blowing level where the music is just sooooooooooooooo amazing, annnd so far out and soooo truly psychedelic that you realize that you had not heard nothing yet . Psychedelics are what they are, yes they pose dangers but lets not try and deny what they can do to the musical experience. After all we are here discussing, <<<..<<psychedelic>>..>>> trance.
Anyways, I think I agree with Demereziel.
But I respect the Israteam, and maybe they do know what is best. After all they make a tremendous job with the site. Great work.
Cheers.
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Nobita
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
371
Posted : Feb 8, 2006 08:01
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A thing that strikes me is that on the front page of isratrance it is written :
"Isratrance
Israeli Psychedelic Experience"
So would it really seem out of place in Isratrance to have a forum devoted to the psychedelic experience ?
Row row row your boats gently down the stream; merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream. |
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Krell
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1114
Posted : Feb 8, 2006 08:24
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On 2006-02-08 08:01, Demezriel wrote:
A thing that strikes me is that on the front page of isratrance it is written :
"Isratrance
Israeli Psychedelic Experience"
So would it really seem out of place in Isratrance to have a forum devoted to the psychedelic experience ?
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Well doesnt it ?
How can you say that Isratrance as such isnt devoted to the psychedelic experience induced by psychedelic music ?
I think its a fucked up way to think, if you truely believe you have to do LSD or similar drugs in order to achieve and understand psychedelic experiences.
Plenty of other sites deal with psychedelic experiences induced by drugs though... why not respect that this is not what Isratrance is about, and then go there, where your topic is more than welcome.
Accept this site as is... The people behind it have made their drug policy very clear, I think you should respect that and leave it be.
Some things are always open for discussion, others are not - I think, the text about drugs below is very clear, and to me it certainly doesnt sound like something that is open for discussion.
"This site deals with music and has nothing to do with drugs!!!
Trance music is a form of art and has an independent existence unrelated to drugs and
drug use. This music, its makers, listeners and dancers should not be oppressed and
pushed out of legitimacy because of the failure of our social institutes in dealing withdrug problems. The only solution to drug problems is education!
If you're feeling the need to use drugs in order to enjoy music or any other activity of life- remember:
* Drugs can be very dangerous.
* Drugs can ruin your mind and life!!!
* Most drugs are illegal and you can end up in court and even in jail!
Educate yourself!!! Here are some suggestions:
DanceSafe - http://www.dancesafe.org
RaveSafe - http://www.ravesafe.org.za
What's Your Poison - http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/poison/default.htm
Take note that drug information is limited, not necessarily scientifically based
(including these sites), and unbiased research is rare- you're in a vague area,
and that should be taken into account when you're calculating your risks!"
So, when you go somewhere, and you are told before hand - "Hey, they dont want drug talk in their home - ok?" do you just think "fuck it, I will talk about it anyway, since I believe its so crucial - the least I can do is tell them that they are wrong". Or, do you just accept that this is the way it is, those are the rules to respect when your a guest somewhere?
Heres the logic spelled out, ala Shakespeare ;-)
1 - "Dude, theres no smoking here"
2 - "Hey, but smoking is an important part of the social experience, and this is a party!"
1 - "We dont want any smoking here, please put it out, it also says so on the flyer, the door and we just told you"
2 - "Oh ok, but, are you sure it wouldnt be better if I just go on with my smoke, like I said? You should really change that rule, like I said......"
Sorry, couldnt help myself
The annoying thing is, that perhaps some day a place like this might betray the ideals it is built upon just because they get tired of listening to people repeating the same idea over and over.
So yes, I think a drug forum might very well destroy isratrance, and also, play a big role in cementing the psychedelic trance culture even more with psychedelic drugs. (For which there is absolutely no need).
Krell
Label DJ>
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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