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PSYCHEDELIC Trance
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
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797
Posted : Dec 6, 2005 18:16
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On 2005-12-06 05:29, Psy_mystic wrote:
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posted by 14yo-etard: Nov 9, 2005 11:14
"Hallucinations
Subjectively experienced sensation in the absence of an actual appropriate stimulus, but which is regarded by the individual as real."
"Hallucinogens
Drugs capable of inducing illusions, hallucinations, delusions, paranoid ideations, and other alterations of mood and thinking. Despite the name, the feature that distinguishes these agents from other classes of drugs is their capacity to induce states of altered perception, thought, and feeling that are not experienced otherwise.
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"Aldous Huxley, author of 'Brave New World' and 'The Doors of Perception,' does not agree with the term hallucinogen when applied to LSD. . He believes that a much more appropriate description of its effects should be 'mind-expander.' A hallucinogen causes a hallucination; something that is not there; an unreality. Under LSD, your mind is expanded. What you experience is not a dream or illusion, but a larger world. The tripper dives INTO reality, not away from it."
a small comeback ..
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Besides the fact that I quoted the medical dictionary and not someone's personal views on the matter, you say that:
"A hallucinogen causes a hallucination; something that is not there; an unreality."
And then you contradict your self by saying:
"The tripper dives INTO reality, not away from it."
So which one is it?
  Me>You |
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Psy_mystic
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 7, 2005 18:22
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i was just trying to show that everything is subjective- its how YOU percieve the world around you that defines your world.So to answer your question there isnt a right or wrong view .its what u make of it-u want it to be fake and not real,it will.You want it to be real and mind expanding ,it will be.
and i didnt contradict myself there mate,:
"hallucinogen causes a hallucination; something that is not there; an unreality. " THATS what is commonly believed and I said to be "wrong"
" Under LSD, your mind is expanded. What you experience is NOT a dream or illusion, but a LARGER WORLD. The tripper dives INTO REALITY, not away from it"
thats what i said to be "correct"-Huxley's personal view.
and yes its personal but it doesnt make it any less real than your (medical) definition of the matter.
"Detox is for queers" |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 8, 2005 01:05
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On 2005-12-07 18:22, Psy_mystic wrote:
So to answer your question there isnt a right or wrong view .its what u make of it-u want it to be fake and not real,it will.You want it to be real and mind expanding ,it will be. |
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Ok. So someone who is crazy and is seeing pink elephants, daizy chained by holding their tails, flying in the sky, would agrue that what s/he is seeing is really there, and it is not a product of their imagination? They want the elephants to be real. So according to your way of thinking, they are?
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On 2005-12-07 18:22, Psy_mystic wrote:
and i didnt contradict myself there mate,:
"hallucinogen causes a hallucination; something that is not there; an unreality. " THATS what is commonly believed and I said to be "wrong"
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You may think it is wrong, but people (the MD Phd kind of people) who have done research (the kind of reserach that involves more than having a few drops and dance their tits off for 12 hours) on the subject, have a more substantiated view than you or me.
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On 2005-12-07 18:22, Psy_mystic wrote:
thats what i said to be "correct"-Huxley's personal view.
and yes its personal but it doesnt make it any less real than your (medical) definition of the matter.
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Feel free to adopt your athor's view on the subject if it makes you feel better about your personal choices in life, but any way you look at it, medical definition based on scientific research, is a lot more real than literature based personal views.
Me>You |
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Psy_mystic
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 8, 2005 03:16
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ok now..
before i come up with an answer can u answer me this: have u ever tried acid?
"Detox is for queers" |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 8, 2005 12:38
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Psy_mystic
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 8, 2005 20:03
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You may think it is wrong, but people (the MD Phd kind of people) who have done research (the kind of reserach that involves more than having a few drops and dance their tits off for 12 hours) on the subject, have a more substantiated view than you or me.
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How can those ppl have a more "substantiated" view on the matter without ever trying it?
LSD is not sth u cant theorize about ,u have to experience it.And I dont think that because they studied their asses off for years and got an md phd whatever,makes them "clever" or really important or anything.They are intelligent BUT it has to do with what they have been tought ,doesnt it?Whereas Huxley was intelligent and used that intelligence to become more "clever" by rediscovering himself and everything around him rather than following a pre-determined path ,like your docs did.
do i sound extreme to u?
"Detox is for queers" |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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797
Posted : Dec 8, 2005 20:22
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On 2005-12-08 20:03, Psy_mystic wrote:
How can those ppl have a more "substantiated" view on the matter without ever trying it?
LSD is not sth u cant theorize about ,u have to experience it.
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LSD is no different than any other chemical compound that can be broken down. Scientists are aware of its effects on the human brain. They don't have to try it them selves to derive their results. The argument is whether what the user perecives as reality, is truly real, which is not the case obviously.
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On 2005-12-08 20:03, Psy_mystic wrote:
And I dont think that because they studied their asses off for years and got an md phd whatever,makes them "clever" or really important or anything.They are intelligent BUT it has to do with what they have been tought ,doesnt it?Whereas Huxley was intelligent and used that intelligence to become more "clever" by rediscovering himself and everything around him rather than following a pre-determined path ,like your docs did. |
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Ok. So just because someone is spouting unsubstantiated bollocks that goes against years and years of scientific study, makes them a hero to you?
I am not sharing your point of view, to say the least.
By the way you say that
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On 2005-12-08 20:03, Psy_mystic wrote:I dont think that because they studied their asses off for years and got an md phd whatever,makes them "clever" |
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and then you say
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On 2005-12-08 20:03, Psy_mystic wrote:
They are intelligent |
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You see you are contradicting your self (again) and you don't even realise, or simply don't want to.
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On 2005-12-08 20:03, Psy_mystic wrote:
do i sound extreme to u?
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You sound like you're in denial.
Me>You |
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Polyester Corespun
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106
Posted : Dec 8, 2005 21:26
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Mates, there are loads of worldwide accurate scientific data about the lsd phenomenon and millions of reports from people describing their own personal psychedelic experience. Everything we have come to know today about this psychoactive substance that changed the world is based both on thorough medical/chemical research and experiments and, on recording and analyzing personal experiences. Not to mention the mass of literature written by famous and less famous authors who have been putting on paper their views on the subject and the products of their inspiration while/after the trip.
I don’t really know if there’s a serious point on how we call it, ‘unreality’ or ‘larger reality’, the effects are the same for the individual cause what he/she sees is definitely real for him/her at that moment. Definitions may vary between the experts but for the common ppl like us it’s the same thing.
Another thing is, the scientific point of view stresses not only the actual describing and the nature of the lsd experience, but also the implications and the risks or benefits of this potent substance. With all the respect to Mr Huxley (whose readings I enjoy a lot), we can never put aside the expert’s view and Mr Hofmann was a doctor himself.
Check the list of speakers for the LSD International Symposium happening on January in Switzerland www.LSD.info
This huge list of speakers includes both many PhD’s and MD’s and various artists etc.
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Dec 9, 2005 11:05
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On 2005-12-08 21:26, Polyester Corespun wrote:
I don’t really know if there’s a serious point on how we call it, ‘unreality’ or ‘larger reality’, the effects are the same for the individual cause what he/she sees is definitely real for him/her at that moment. Definitions may vary between the experts but for the common ppl like us it’s the same thing.
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So it is down to semantics? What each person calls the mental realm s/he enters when under the influence? The main point is realising that when you induce a chemical substance in your brain, you will produce a sequence of artificial chemical triggers that alter your perception of reality. I am not saying that it is not possible to feel these profound effects, I am just saying that these effects are not real. Its like an insane individual that has delusions. The mentaly unstable individual would swear that what they are experiencing is real, but it is not! Hence the free ride to the madhouse.
Me>You |
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atlanticark
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Posted : Dec 9, 2005 12:14
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Well i think we have to do with 2 completely different things here.
E-tard i think you are focusing too much on the medical/scientific aspect of LSD use. What you say is not necessarily false but you also have to realise that scientific research does not take place in ideological and political void. Hence most of the research and their findings explain LSD-use vis-a-vis modern living and western values. Since we are all part of this social fabric, LSD-induced perceptions of reality often sound childish, immature and to us.
It's also true that there is a great deal of marketing going on about alternative ways of living (i.e all this new age stuff that has been coming out the last 2 decades). Eastern philosophies have been incorporated into the western value-system offering the ultimate lifestyle choice for a heterogeneous bunch of people, from pop-singers to occasional trance-lovers. Hence the emergence of spiritual guru's (of the Coehllo variety) whose messages are superficial and formulaic to say the least.
However:
The quest to look for deeper and more spiritual ways of life, in search of the ultimate meaning of existence, is as old as the human race itself. Meterialist societies (like the one we are living today) have always been suspicious of such tendencies and have developed ways to undervalue them either by demonising them or by incorporating them into the system in the shape of commodities.
But moving beyond that, one can recognise that reality, as we perceive it, is nothing more than a set of values and conventions developed over the years so the majority of people can find ways to organise experience into something that most of us can roughly identify.
To me there is no denial that at some point in our lifes we need to deconstruct this reality, to move beyond that even temporarily in order to understand ourselves, find deeper ways of identification and, ultimately discover our personal truth. Some people (myself not included) have been helped in this process by the use of psychoactives. I see no wrong in that as long as they understand that psychoactives may be the vehicle in taking you somewhere and not the destination itself.
It is not an easy journey and many people, unfortunately too many within our music circle, were lost somewhere on the way. |
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Polyester Corespun
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Posted : Dec 9, 2005 13:08
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I am not saying that it is not possible to feel these profound effects, I am just saying that these effects are not real.
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14-year old e-tard this is definitely my opinion too and no argue about it.
You don’t need to make comparisons between mentally healthy individuals with bedlamites to support this view!
Cause in the first case we’re dealing with a sane person who knows before using the substance that what he’s going to experience is different from what he sees in his everyday life. And when the trip is over he’s the same sane person to tell you that he was talking with the trees but of course he knows that this was only a temporary situation that could not happen in his daily routine with no use of chemicals. He IS capable to distinguish between the two states, whereas the insane cannot because the talking trees are a constant situation of his perception, it’s the ONLY reality he knows.
Yes, both persons are hallucinating. But you must understand the human’s need to explore the inner depths of the consciousness, the need to experience the abstract and the awkward and the unknown. So if we are talking about the common healthy individual who is interested in the psychedelic experience as a way to find himself into a different dimension and broaden his ‘knowledge’ of the universe, I can accept the term ‘larger reality’ instead of ‘unreality’. These terms have nothing to do with the strictly scientific view.
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 9, 2005 14:33
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Valid points and intersting ones. Although
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On 2005-12-09 12:14, atlanticark wrote:
But moving beyond that, one can recognise that reality, as we perceive it, is nothing more than a set of values and conventions developed over the years so the majority of people can find ways to organise experience into something that most of us can roughly identify.
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I don't think most of us have a hard time identifying experience that derives from the norm. I would asume that having problems doing so, would depict inability (to a smaller or higher degree) or even denial, of the individual to adapt to his/her enviroment.
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On 2005-12-09 13:08, Polyester Corespun wrote:
14-year old e-tard this is definitely my opinion too and no argue about it.
You don’t need to make comparisons between mentally healthy individuals with bedlamites to support this view!
Cause in the first case we’re dealing with a sane person who knows before using the substance that what he’s going to experience is different from what he sees in his everyday life. And when the trip is over he’s the same sane person to tell you that he was talking with the trees but of course he knows that this was only a temporary situation that could not happen in his daily routine with no use of chemicals. He IS capable to distinguish between the two states, whereas the insane cannot because the talking trees are a constant situation of his perception, it’s the ONLY reality he knows. |
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Agreed. Read a few earlier posts in this thread though and you'll see that some users have a hard time distinguishing the two states, which is the main reason for raising extreme arguments for some people to understand.
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On 2005-12-09 13:08, Polyester Corespun wrote:
Yes, both persons are hallucinating. But you must understand the human’s need to explore the inner depths of the consciousness, the need to experience the abstract and the awkward and the unknown. So if we are talking about the common healthy individual who is interested in the psychedelic experience as a way to find himself into a different dimension and broaden his ‘knowledge’ of the universe, I can accept the term ‘larger reality’ instead of ‘unreality’. These terms have nothing to do with the strictly scientific view.
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I brought up the strict scientific view because it is the crude fact that hallucinogenics, make you...hallucinate, just that.
If someone wants to explore their inner depths of conciousness through fake realms made up of chemical compounds, they are free to do so.
atlantic ark pointed out (and wisely so) that acid is only a means to an end and I partly agree. But its no holy grail. Its no sure shot, the way is tricky and hides a lot of danger, just like everything else in life and deserves no glorification. It is blatant testimonies about acid being a larger world that I oppose. That larger world is not the substance it self.
Me>You |
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Psy_mystic
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 9, 2005 18:13
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Ok. So just because someone is spouting unsubstantiated bollocks that goes against years and years of scientific study, makes them a hero to you? |
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unsubstantiated bollocks???i dont think so-that is just ignorant of you..get a grip and stop trying to convince others that YOU are correct.
Oh and PLZ STOP SAYING I CONTRADDICT MYSELF!!!im starting to get a bit annoyed cause u dont have a clue about what ure talking mate!!
I SAID :I dont think that because they studied their asses off for years and got an md phd whatever,makes them "clever" meaning that having a PHD doesnt certify that you are "clever" I DISTINCT "intelligent" from "clever" cause u can be intelligent without being particularly clever .Do you comprehend now mate?hope u do...
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14 yoetard said : it is the crude fact that hallucinogenics, make you...hallucinate, just that.
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allright mate..its is TRUE that the make u hallucinate BUT its not just that!not by far!!! if u deny that then i must say its u who lives in denial..
who knows maybe u got some shitty acid and u dont have a clue what im talking about!
As for the example of the sane-insane comparison...
"Imagine of a circle with a fallin split in it.At one end of the circle is insanity,u go around the circle to sanity and on the other end of the circle close to insanity but no insanity is unsanity "
if its real for someone then its real to him and that is sufficient,not bad nor good but sufficient -its his world ,looks real ,smells real,tastes real then ITS REAL mates...(for him alone BUT there is no need for others to believe in his reality.)
imagine this:what if everyone was talking to trees apart from you?who would be concidered mad then..? "Detox is for queers" |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 9, 2005 21:42
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On 2005-12-09 18:13, Psy_mystic wrote:
unsubstantiated bollocks???i dont think so-that is just ignorant of you..get a grip and stop trying to convince others that YOU are correct. |
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If that author is saying what you are, then sorry, but he is.
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On 2005-12-09 18:13, Psy_mystic wrote:
Oh and PLZ STOP SAYING I CONTRADDICT MYSELF!!!im starting to get a bit annoyed cause u dont have a clue about what ure talking mate!! |
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I would if you stop doing it! For example:
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On 2005-12-09 18:13, Psy_mystic wrote:
" I DISTINCT "intelligent" from "clever" cause u can be intelligent without being particularly clever .Do you comprehend now mate?hope u do...
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Well you might do, but the english language, does not. Look up a dictionary, or open a word document and you'll find that intelligent is one of the synonyms for the word clever.
I think its time you considered changing the union jack underneath your username for something else. 
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On 2005-12-09 18:13, Psy_mystic wrote:
allright mate..its is TRUE that the make u hallucinate BUT its not just that!not by far!!! if u deny that then i must say its u who lives in denial..
who knows maybe u got some shitty acid and u dont have a clue what im talking about!
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Well what else do they do Psy_mystic? You obviously have access to the good dealers. Enlighten me please.
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On 2005-12-09 18:13, Psy_mystic wrote:
imagine this:what if everyone was talking to trees apart from you?who would be concidered mad then..?
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Well let me be the one who's going to give you a reality check after (apparently) a long time. Most people do not talk to trees!
...mate.
Me>You |
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Psy_mystic
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 9, 2005 22:44
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Nah..i think its just your opinion.
Now here are some definitions I found on the web
Intelligence : the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience
Cleverness :
# inventiveness: the power of creative imagination
# brightness: intelligence as manifested in being quick and witty
# ingenuity: the property of being ingenious; "a plot of great ingenuity"; "the cleverness of its design"
Intelligence is a general mental capability that involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn. In psychology, the study of intelligence is related to the study of personality but is NOT the same as creativity, personality, character, or wisdom.
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On 2005-12-09 18:13, Psy_mystic wrote:
" I DISTINCT "intelligent" from "clever" cause u can be intelligent without being particularly clever .Do you comprehend now mate?hope u do...
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Well you might do, but the english language, does not. Look up a dictionary, or open a word document and you'll find that intelligent is one of the synonyms for the word clever.
I think its time you considered changing the union jack underneath your username for something else.
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should I ,now??LOL
and by the way nice to c you're well into the english language-Good for you! 
talk again soon mate
"Detox is for queers" |
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