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Hommage to P2P sharing

Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  60
Posts :  3709
Posted : Oct 27, 2006 01:14
Tris - its a fog in this dicussion, you see just cause you cant hang music on your wall or place it on the table dont mean that it is for free... at least not free of work, just as a painter puts piant on a screen a musician puts sounds on a screen.. (so how should we pay them for their work?)

if you want a painting you have to pay for it.. you like it, its beautiful and you want it.. but it gets rather dramatic to just grab it and run, you would probably get the police after you...

now, a song/tune/track is also a physical thing, it needs a medium.. you need some sort of way to catch the soundwaves and and a way to reproduce them....

in the digital world you either you get a mp3 file/wav file or you get a Cd which contains these files.. there are lots of formats(no need to mention them all), in the analog world you also need a medium.. either LP/vinyl or cassette..

lets see..

you have a store which sells CD´s, Lp´s and cassettes.. its a physical thing.

now you have internet, which transfere information through cables, the soundfiles are not something you can touch, but once you play the tracks you can touch and feel the music.. i say touch casue if you put your hand infront of the woffer you can feel the soudwaves..

we do have a problem with music and the simplicity it is to get your hands on it , but this problem is little compared to what it enables... it enables more people to hear music they would never hear... so artists that maybe never would get attention now gets it.. which is a opertunity for them cause maybe they can play at some festival or whatever...

with internet comes alot of freedom..
what internet shows is that we people are gang of parasites that wants things for free, even if someone worked their ass off for something we want it as cheap as possible... preferably for free...

and simple humans as i, which has no big position in society will follow the norm.. while people with big positions dont need to.. cause they can get away with lots of things... these people are also lying thiefs which wants to get things for free and want others to work their ass off for them...

there are police officers, government workers and everything inbetween that download music and movies on the internet... (and on the other hand they are supposed to arrest the people that are involved in such activity.)

we all do it to some extent, some dont cause of moral beliefs and maybe cause of the believe in karma...

its difficult to stop this problem and opertunity, as it is on the sametime..

once somebody got a copy of a track or album its so easy to put it out on the internet for everybody to download... the only possible thing that can stop this is MORAL... and we live in a time were moral is very weak... our mission is to work hard and take all that we can... the fundemental prinicp that we should take care of eachother is getting more and more erased...


what can i say, im no angel im as much involved in this as anyone else... im not working active to make a change or difference... i just like music and for sure it would be a bless if you could get my music and i could get some of your food and drinks...

in the end i think that it will be all good.. the artists needs to search them selfs and find their moral, and act on those moral principles, and just hope s/he gets a loyal fan base that is interested in supporting the music they create..



Rah
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  77
Posts :  498
Posted : Oct 27, 2006 03:22
Quote:

On 2006-10-26 20:36, Tris wrote:
I'm wondering....
Some say with the download increasing all the time, there would be more and more labels/company going bankrupt... Less and less artists making music... And so on...

But look at the fact : there are still more than 20/25 releases a week (to much to buy or even listen everything if you don't do that full time...) and new labels all the time.
Who are this people who know full well they won't make money making tracks or selling Cds?



Actually a closer rendition of the facts would look a little more like this. I got the information from Mr.Psydb on the promise i would write an article, but i'm working 10 hour days lately and i just don't seem to have the time. I hope he forgives me if this information was not meant to be public.
Code:

> Year All Active Dead New Rebirth ratio
> 1992 3 2 1 3 300%
> 1993 13 12 0 10 300%
> 1994 38 35 2 25 1250%
> 1995 81 72 6 43 716%
> 1996 123 95 19 42 221%
> 1997 161 109 24 38 158%
> 1998 195 108 35 34 97%
> 1999 238 121 30 43 143%
> 2000 286 137 32 48 150%
> 2001 334 153 32 48 150%
> 2002 412 199 32 78 243%
> 2003 469 206 50 57 113%
> 2004 554 233 58 85 146%
> 2005 635 254 60 81 135%


The rebirth ratio as he explained was compounded number between the number labels dying and the number being born each year. Yes i realize there is no 2006, unfortunatelly the info was not available. The cold numbers from previous years are there however... and i would bet my money the last 4 years are at least 90% accurate. Let's be honest PsyDb is the best resource this scene has for those matters.

What's the point of this? We have an exponential number of labels growing every year that's no secret... the other side of the coin is the great number of labels closing, which is not very far from the ones that opened either. The numbers from 2004-5 allow us to make an educated prediction things might have not radicaly changed this this year. So is it the 'shit' labels that are closing? i dunno.. let's take a look: Tatsu, Spirit Zone, Flying Rhino, Spiral Traxx... keep adding your list here.

did they know full well that perhaps there wasn't any money to be made? I don't think anyone expects to get rich here, most people are just happy to see their investments returned. The widespread assumption is 'he either writes or releases music for the love of it' or 'he's a sell out' there is no middle ground. There no space to consider those people that love this scene so much, they don't want to do anything else but live, dream, and make psy all day. The problem is you can't eat psy.. you have to eat food... know what i mean? and the people who are knee-deep into it, breaking boundaries advancing the scene need to have their artistic freedom, they need people behind to support their work economically. so they can eat and focus on psy properly. And that's not happening, psy has already lost many, many brilliant minds to the fact they can't make a living here and labels close, they change their sound to reflect other scenes, they give up music and focus full time on their day-job, etc.

There's enough releases out there where you can see people spent money, sweat and sleepless nights making that dream a reality and it looks good, it sounds crystal clear and the music is worth it. i'll let you decide which ones, you know. Download it enjoy it -and what's even more important- realize that in order for more great music to be made, people need to see some kind of economic return for their work to continue. Not many of us can afford to buy every single release we want, it's the same shit with every other business, books, food, movies, games, computers, furniture, clothes... we buy what we can... but we buy something...


Quote:

They can't be all of them stupid ?
Or do they like the music and the trance scene so much they don't care about making profit ? What a bunch of commies...
Or maybe they are just giving the music to the scene, knowing full well there would be more download than real sale ?
Maybe they love to make music and the most important thing for them is to have people listening to them ? And to be known from the scene and have people listening (and maybe get get some gigs on their agenda), they have to release under the form of a CDs ?
Are they around here to answer me ?

Let's face it, people don't want and don't need to buy anymore since they don't need anymore to own a cd (or any other physical support)...
Are they stealing ? Because the copyright system and the music industry say so ?...
(Remember the System also says you have the right to pollute the earth because you paid the big companies for your petrol... But is it true ?)




Yes p2p has helped a lot of artists at one point or another we have all downloaded a little something at some point or another and got to know a few people, the idea is to realize that if you want to make your downloading a positive experience, you should support those whom you really liked, those you thought were fukin worth the money. If you read previous reactions and comments from artists that are already established with a few releases under their belt and getting gigs, they will very explicitly tell you, they would rather make music for themselves only than have it spread around... do you give away your work if they don't pay for it? even if you love doing it? no... you take your shit home and tell them to stick it... and rightfully so. What about those people making music for free? it's great for them (and us) and i support that anyway i can, but one way or another is a bit of publicity huh? artists would like to sell their work if possible... nothing wrong with that.

downloading makes people known, but it also builds this invisble wall around them. You know X-act, or horrendous pimple, or e-dope have a great sound, they make killer music, but you don't really know who they are, under what conditions they are making that music. Perhaps is some rich fellow living Austria who does not need the money, perhpas is someone in Bosnia who against all odds got amazing music out there and is betting his yearly salary people are going to grow a conscience and buy his material because it might be worth it.... it might be not... it's your choice... enough ranting... hope i did something besides wear my keyboard even more.
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Tris
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  16
Posts :  296
Posted : Oct 27, 2006 05:32
Things have changed... Music (and video, software...) are all around us for free. Just a few clicks away.
We can regret it or not, that the way it is.
What is release IS in the public domain. Not legally, but in the facts it is. So better start from there instead of expecting some big moral change about that.

It brings good changes and bad ones.
We can praise the P2P to give access to music to more people. And apparently, it doesn't stop people from releasing new stuff, with new ideas and all.
We can regret it means less money from sales for the artists. And I understand a lot of them would like to live from their art... I just wish they will find some other kind of reward or give enought motivation to other to follow on.
But will it kill the trance scene ? I don't think so.... It has already evolved a lot from the beggining. And it is still evolving.
And still every couple of weeks, there is a new topic on this forum blaming P2P... like some people were still expecting something to happen about that... So from time to time, I can't refrain to answer them or ask them a few questions...

PS : BTW, I came across this very funny South Park episode tonight called "Die Hippy, die". It's not about P2P but very funny and quite cynical at time. You should... look for it.
Rah
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  77
Posts :  498
Posted : Oct 27, 2006 07:52
i'm not expecting a big moral change either, but it dosen't hurt to bring a little more information to the discussion. Now you know as i do, there's a lot of labels dying as well and the numbers prove it. Maybe Universal Studios can stand the heat a little better, and so can microsoft; maybe multinational record labels struggle too... the thing is, they got people to fight for them. Our little patch of green is slightly smaller and the idea is to take care of it if we can. To create a little conscience since we're not sticking it to the man here, but to ourselves. i'm not saying, to stop downloading either, but if you can support an artist every now and again when you see fit... it might be a little more realistic. Are these discussions a waste of time? they sure get tiring, yet i know a number of very interesting ideas that have been breeding on these grounds, and like you said the scene is evolving.



          elementoftime.net
musique à la carte in mp3 & wav.

Sonic-energy.net
Reviews, interviews, downloads, articles.
koalakube
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  48
Posts :  437
Posted : Oct 27, 2006 08:50
I personally dont really mind people doing the p2p thing.I agree it is a good promotion for the artist.
I also understand it can be a problem for the labels,but Im confident the majority of the poeple out there is going to buy the original,regardless its a cd or in digital format,if they really like the product.
trends and business models are changing,and its pretty stupid to deny it.


What it really piss me off is all those twats arguing they have a right to do so,and are suggesting to the artists to get a real job.
It is nosense,just plain lack of respect.
Im not even going to make examples on why they lack of any kind of morality as it seems people like that are totally unable to understand even the mostsimple thing in life.

I cant see how all of you can even think of create a synergy beetwen artists and public.
Psytrance was ,among other things, and meant being part of a community where individuals respect each other freedom.

Maybe psytrance is really dead.


Matt B


-RaNDom

Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle

Started Topics :  158
Posts :  5306
Posted : Oct 27, 2006 13:22
i go to "real" job. ("real" since it sux and i have to do it for having inough $)

since i have my income , i treat music as my love and fun and realy not to make any sound or melody just since it will sell better. thats a very positive point in favour of the "real" job. i could as well make those irritate house tracks , with 3 notes melody , and "eurodance" preset from randon synths. those sell much more for sure.

with that , i have so little time to make this music i love so much. (year 2006 i did around 15 tracks only , i used to make 40 when was unemployed - 2004 for example)

so it comes to that

you buy (my album) > artist (me) have time to make more music (next album)

you download > this artist (me) might stop doing music all in all since have to go to work . or do it and just never realese/share it with anyone.

your choise , im just saying the facts.

nobita - how many cd's you got in 2006 ? and how many you d/l ?
is the ratio 1:2 ? 1:10? 1:100 ?

just wondering...



one more thing about "real job" :

i bought EQUIPMENT worth more then 8000$ ! . (this for once takes big investment from me , what saing i worked inough to buy all that)

i spent YEARS to LEARN how to just OPERATE all this . (this is long time while i could work more and make more money , i compromised on low-life style for having the knowledge i wanted , not to mention many artist go to sound school and PAY for this)

then i make the actual track , which takes long TIME . (again , time i can go to my "real" job and make good moeny)

i have to MARKET my self to labels so they will REALESE my stuff in this crazy artist jungle. (yes its like competition in a way , and the ones put in more time and efford , will probably get the position)

then LABEL should print cd, pay for graphics , pay for mastering , and get from distro. about 7-8$ for piece that normal person buy in 14$.

so , please , who can say all that is not inough work for track to get to your ears.

"the cow want to nurse more then the calf want to suckle"

may be labels should all in once to not realese anything 3 months.. and have ticker in their sites , complain about p2p. im sure after that , peaple will think twice if to buy or d/l          www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/
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