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Goodbye Chaos Unlimited!
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DETOX
Moderator
Started Topics :
296
Posts :
6194
Posted : Aug 25, 2006 20:43
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You didnt bother to copy the rest of my words there though,neither to connect them with my response to Neuromantik.
How stupid.....and how predictable!
  Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!! |
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clown
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
97
Posts :
1777
Posted : Aug 25, 2006 21:26
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all right all right.. cool it guys.. your all acting a little silly.. there are ways to express ourselves better and more respectfully..
i have to kinda agree with Detox though, on the supply and demande theory. There is only so much money 1 psytrance collector can spend in a month, but there are enough new releases for 100 collectors. So the collector now has to make a choice for what he will buy, either by listening to the samples or by commun scene of knowledge.. That means that if he makes a choice, some Cd's get left out, decreasing overall sales because sales are baised on quantity in stock of each different label, not by 1 title selling out.
Okay, i don't know if that acctually makes sence, but i DO know that if i release a CD this month, and so do 40 other labels, what are the odd's people will even find my release with all the others before they get tired of listening to all these different samples? Not many, especially since people are getting tired of the same sounds ,formula's and even the same artists. Now if you compaire my release with, lets say the new Kagdilla records release, mine costs me 5 times more, meaning my title would have to sell 5 times more to break even, yet to the uneducated consumer, they will just buy whatever album keeping sales constant, but decreasing the overall sales of each individual label.
that is the key i think Detox is bringing here.. EACH new label takes away sales from another label. That's why he is pissed seeing so many "joke" label's releasing music from there friends that cost them nothing BECAUSE they are taking away from an acctual label who is investing in the scene, not just contributing.. INVESTING !! you know, money wise.. Between a label that throws 5000 Euro to there artists, suporting them and helping them grow, compaired to a label that doesn't give 1 dollar to there artists, i'd choose to suport a label that acctually cares about the music they are releasing.
maybe you don't.. that's cool.. you'll probably download all those 40 new releases anyways, listen to them 1 each, and not even remember what you just heard. 
ohh yeah, its sad to hear that yet another store is closing
"VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
168
Posts :
2984
Posted : Aug 25, 2006 22:06
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full_on
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
279
Posts :
5475
Posted : Aug 25, 2006 22:17
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The end of Chaos Unlimited is really bad news.
However, before things get out of control, I recommend you guys to calm down and write in a polite way, avoiding harsh words.
About DETOX's points of view:
We do have too much lame labels, and even more lame releases. But some artists also have their share of the "guilt", because they keep releasing their music on these lame labels that some times don't even pay them. No one buy a CD from an unknow label with only unknow artists inside, very few people will even take the time to listen to their samples. So these labels release one or two well-known artists in their albums, and these Killargh artists attracts potential buyers to their lame release...
Buyers also buy these lame releases only because of one track, I did that myself some times, but now I regret it and understand that if I search better, I can buy a better and more complete album which will not only please me more, but also support those who really took their time to compile and produce the good stuff.
You all see it's a complicated issue, and the best we can do is to give the example, respecting those who won our respect and avoiding those who disappoint us.
Respect!
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...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
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...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell... |
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offthenutboom
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
55
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928
Posted : Aug 25, 2006 23:24
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Quote:
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On 2006-08-25 19:51, DETOX wrote:
Offthenutboom you tottally lost what i wanted to say here.
Sales are in huge crisis not because people leave psy trance aside and focus on other kinds of music BUT because today we got more than 800 labels most of them on a very very amateur level that flood the market and confuse the people and take sales out of the labels that deserve them.
We got labels that sell no more than 300-400 copies and they still manage to survive in this market simply because they pay no money to their artists (they just want to see their name somewhere anyway),no expenses for cover artwork and mastering and no promotion at all ofcourse.These labels have nothing to offer and they exist just to destroy everyone else who has something to offer to this small scene.Their only reason of existence is their owners and artists vanity to become famous and make some money if possible.
When you got 500 labels out there who work on such a basis then half the market is spoiled and the sales for the ones that really invest in this kind of music and the ones that really need them are just gone.
There are more than enough people to support this small scene,i mean one can hold a serious label by selling 2500 copies which is not a big number but when the supply is much much more than the demand then the good buys loose first and then the bad guys will dissapear afterwards too.
Got my point now?
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No IMHO. To blame the decline on sales on one dimensional aspect of a scene, specially because ppl go through the effort on releasing music with underground labels... for me personally is not satisfactory. I feel after 11 years in this scene and going through three revolutionary evolutions, one in 95, another in 99 and another in 2002/3. And feeling constant innovation and setting new rules... I personally think that ppl are just wanting to change styles, since melodic trance is coming back. For me now I prefer to buy music from Sven Vath, Nathan Fake and many more, not because the psy released is bad, but because I want melody and harmony to stand in the music again... and not melody and harmony goa based with the same chord progressions, changes, rolls, lfo and fm tweaks.... but an evolution that is happening outside the scene in a completely new and fresh way. 11 years is the longest time I have been DJing and involved in a music scene, but for me it is time to move.
Like me there are many ppl that are feeling the same way. Some moved to chill, some left the scene all together... others download the music. It is all the these factors and not the ppl trying to build their own happiness that affect it. Face it, evolve or die. |
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offthenutboom
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
55
Posts :
928
Posted : Aug 25, 2006 23:37
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Quote:
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On 2006-08-25 21:26, clown wrote:
all right all right.. cool it guys.. your all acting a little silly.. there are ways to express ourselves better and more respectfully..
i have to kinda agree with Detox though, on the supply and demande theory. There is only so much money 1 psytrance collector can spend in a month, but there are enough new releases for 100 collectors. So the collector now has to make a choice for what he will buy, either by listening to the samples or by commun scene of knowledge.. That means that if he makes a choice, some Cd's get left out, decreasing overall sales because sales are baised on quantity in stock of each different label, not by 1 title selling out.
Okay, i don't know if that acctually makes sence, but i DO know that if i release a CD this month, and so do 40 other labels, what are the odd's people will even find my release with all the others before they get tired of listening to all these different samples? Not many, especially since people are getting tired of the same sounds ,formula's and even the same artists. Now if you compaire my release with, lets say the new Kagdilla records release, mine costs me 5 times more, meaning my title would have to sell 5 times more to break even, yet to the uneducated consumer, they will just buy whatever album keeping sales constant, but decreasing the overall sales of each individual label.
that is the key i think Detox is bringing here.. EACH new label takes away sales from another label. That's why he is pissed seeing so many "joke" label's releasing music from there friends that cost them nothing BECAUSE they are taking away from an acctual label who is investing in the scene, not just contributing.. INVESTING !! you know, money wise.. Between a label that throws 5000 Euro to there artists, suporting them and helping them grow, compaired to a label that doesn't give 1 dollar to there artists, i'd choose to suport a label that acctually cares about the music they are releasing.
maybe you don't.. that's cool.. you'll probably download all those 40 new releases anyways, listen to them 1 each, and not even remember what you just heard.
ohh yeah, its sad to hear that yet another store is closing
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Well, if the labels that pay 5000 Euro to the artists would be on another level of production and the music was mind blowing, then underground labels would be having a much harder time, and small label owners would be thinking it twice to release. But, unfortunatelly that is not the case. I released a CD, sales were low. I master with Xenomorph, I paid all the artists 300 Euro and I pressed 1000 copies. I had professional and significant artists with music I played and liked. Actually that blew my mind @ the time I played it.
For me personally, I feel psy trance is not as attracting as it used to be for many. For me it has lost to all the rules and conditions we created to make "psychedelic trance"... it has become standarized. Not only in small labels, but in the "big" ones too. It feel like it is falling to the D&B syndrome. That is what I say that psy trance will not evolve from the current scene, because we are overconditioned about the experience itself, how it has to be done in order to fulfill the construct... and it has become boring, the same. So many ppl stopped buying. Just go to the 604 and ask how many ppl buy trance on a regular basis... and these were the ppl who actually would spend a months pay in the music. And this is one factor of many which define lower sales. TImes change, music change and people like the new thing... and psy trance unfortunatelly and honestly from the heart it is an old thing. |
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Rah
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
498
Posted : Aug 25, 2006 23:49
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Quote:
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On 2006-08-25 21:26, clown wrote:
Okay, i don't know if that acctually makes sence, but i DO know that if i release a CD this month, and so do 40 other labels, what are the odd's people will even find my release with all the others before they get tired of listening to all these different samples? Not many, especially since people are getting tired of the same sounds ,formula's and even the same artists. Now if you compaire my release with, lets say the new Kagdilla records release, mine costs me 5 times more, meaning my title would have to sell 5 times more to break even, yet to the uneducated consumer, they will just buy whatever album keeping sales constant, but decreasing the overall sales of each individual label.
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isn't that assuming the customer is dumb? i'm sorry but who in their right mind is going to 'confuse' buying a... tech trance cd.. with... a chill cd... or even night time twisted scando trance cd? people in this scene have very defined tastes, they know what they like and what they don't like. Furthermore this is all in a sub-genre that does not even belong in the kind of music you release (see all of a sudden sub-genre's are important). The issue here is that labels are going to have work a little harder to promote their product then no? that's how markets adapt. people need to stop seeing every small change as thread and rather an opportunity. Imagine for one second, those 8000 labels that are being created, actually released 'good psy' according to your book... wouln't that be 1000 times worse ?
Are labels in the business of selling plastic cd's or selling music? diversify, diversify, diversify...
sorry this went offtopic frm the original post... i think chaos unlimited had entrenched itself in the UK market a lot more than the int. market and there's a lot of competition down there as we all know, it's not only the online stores that are suffering that said, i wish them all the bst in their future plans and endevours.
elementoftime.net
musique à la carte in mp3 & wav.
Sonic-energy.net
Reviews, interviews, downloads, articles. |
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neuromantik
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
593
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 00:13
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I stopped ordering from chaos (living in France) because it was too expensive. I won't go over the numbers right now (I did once dec 2005) but with the british pound high compared to the euro, and the VAT + shipping, I found it cheaper to order from elsewhere (saikosounds which is dollar prices = cheap for now).
There an answer without contreversy  |
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Evil Fucker
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
74
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 01:08
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DETOX man get a F***** Porno mag man or dvd ! |
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Dot Kite
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
35
Posts :
431
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 01:19
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This is what i call Monkey Business. This scene is like a Circus!
regards
Tms
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clown
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
97
Posts :
1777
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 01:26
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Customer : Hi there sir, i would like to know if you have any infected mushroom.
store clerk : Unfortunatly, we are sold out. Can i help you with anything else?
Customer: Well, do you have anything that sounds like them?
Store Clerk : (thinks, turns around to his Cd collection and takes out 10 of his new releaes) Here you go sir, take a listen to these and let me know what you like.
Customer : (Takes CD's to listening booth) wow, this is some good music and its exactly what i was looking for.
[Customer buys a copy of Wizzy Noise album, along with new Extrawelt EP and a copy of Paul Oakenfolds new trance mix]
Store Clerk : (scratch's head woundering why he asked for IM) Im glad you found what you are looking for sunny.
Customer : no prob man, im going to tell all my friends about the new psytrance CD's i just got.
Store Clerk : yeah, umm, great...
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Not everyone can tell the different between styles, not to mention sub-genres. They just get fed music at the local store that just came out and have to make a choice according to what they feel at that moment is what they are looking for. More label's, more Choice.. More choice, more overstock... more overstock, better chances of not selling at regular price.. more chances of not selling at regular price, better chances of closing there doors... Better chances of closing your doors = Chaos Unlimited !
When i walk to my local psytrance store here in montreal, i look at his CD collection and wounder why he has so many different CD's. They i remember that there are so many new releases too choose from, with only a limited amount to spend. So i ask him why doesn't he only buy the big name labels and the response is to offer choice. i can deal with that.. BUT, that doesn't change the fact that the more choice you give, the less chances that he chooses YOUR release. and you know what that means right ?>
And im not talking about YOU, the super-psy-shaman, that know's every artist in the scene and has even slept with there mothers.. Im talking about the everyday JOE who went to the IM concert (yeah, they are called concerts now) and wants to get his hands on some psytrance.. You know, the people who acctually BUY music.
SO yeah, im taking the clients for dumbasses because the one's who DO know what they like, won't even listen to the samples of stuff they haven't even heard of in the first place, so it doesn't matter how many releases they are..
which brings me back to my first replay, stating that the more CD releases there are, the less chances of selling YOUR release..
no ?
"VA - REWIRED" OUT NOW !! (techtrance invasion) ---> http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/86303/forum/9
http://psy.techno.fm <------- Jester Records's Internet Radio channel
www.jesterrecords.ca |
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Shawnodese
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
141
Posts :
2339
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 02:11
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Uff....sorry 2 hear that Chaos Unlimited closes it's doors...the thing I'd like 2 know though from Mick or any other crewmember is why that is. Things are easily assumed (with good reasons/motivation though but it's still assumptions from what I think i see here) and to be honest I think you should take some tranquilizers here Detox. It's not up to you to judge what's good music or not and it's sure not up to you to point fingers in people's directions and judge 'm for not buying enough "good" cd's and to many "bad" cd's. Your attitude shows nothing but judgement about others that are into other music and other ways or releasing (free tunes, working more on base of friendship instead of business - since when is this wrong  ) the music they love. I'll be the last one to deny the fact that lots of music could/should be of higher production/mastering quality but that's a personal opinion and important to you and me but not to everyone. I also find out that sales are down nowadays and that running a label is a bitch-job sometimes, specially when investing some proper money and trying to at least make this back...but that doesn't mean I just freak out in the direction of anyone that's not doing exactly what's up my personal street.....so advice to you here personally would be to get those tranquilizers and be a bit less judgemental for your own & others sake !  & respect still work best in the end !
Mind Funk Records
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www.myspace.com/shawnodese
www.myspace.com/mindfunkmusic |
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Shawnodese
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
141
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2339
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 02:36
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I just read my e-mail and see in there that not only decreasing sales numbers are reason for Chaos Unlimited to close it's doors....but that health reasons are also part of that..maybe even main reasons 'cause of being mentioned 1st. Next to that I personally think that CU's promotion hasn't been what it used to be for many years and that somehow the engine slowly stopped burning bit by bit and that that might be the main reason for sales not being what they could be nowadays....anyway..just some personal thoughts. Some distributions also do well while others close, good example is Beatspace from who I know personally they're very happy with sales and I'm sure Saikosounds and Psyshop r doing pretty well too if I'm not mistaken. It's a free market after all and the arrogant "we'd like the monopoly position and would like to judge what's good or not" attitude of some here is pretty fucking sad and not even close to the true psy-trance spirit in my opinion but nothing more then a manifestation of intolerance, arrogance and ignorance and this attitude does NOT have any place in this scene as far as I'm concerned !
Mind Funk Records
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www.myspace.com/shawnodese
www.myspace.com/mindfunkmusic |
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Rah
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
498
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 02:55
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Quote:
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On 2006-08-26 01:26, clown wrote:
which brings me back to my first replay, stating that the more CD releases there are, the less chances of selling YOUR release..
no ?
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yes, of course man! 
but isn't that how every scene works as things start to get popular? look at punk? ska? neo-jazz? idm? more people listen, more people like it, more people go to concerts, more people want to make music. i think there is a specific point in case with the psychedelic trance scene in particular, but i won't get into that right now.
this specific debate reminds me a lot of when i was living in south america as a teen, and the big debate was opening the market to the international countries... in spanish it was called 'apertura' meaning, int. products from anything from matches to cars were allowed inside the country without regulation from the government playing any special favors on the local brands. Except for auto industry i think... anywho...
Everyone revolted, "we can't possibly compete with the Spanish making matches for 50 cents!" the clothing industry revolted! they couldn’t compete with nike!!
what i'm trying to get at... yes, basically... shit just a whole lot tougher for everyone. I don't know if it's of any consolation, but shit music sales aren't exclusive to psy trance. On our side, things might look a bit like this: Joe is a DJ's and loves psy and the scene and people and wants to be a part of it, so 5 years ago he opened a label. At that point things weren't necessarily good, but they weren't bad either. There was a handful of distributors and handful of quality labels and a small but solid roster of great artists to keep an eye out for things. Fast forward to 2006, the scene where Joe started his label has changed. The number of people listening to the music has multiplied, the labels have multiplied, the methods to make music have multiplied, the methods to deliver music -legally and illegally- have multiplied... the pond just got a whole lot bigger. And the difference is, the number of big fishes is small and all we see is thousands of small fish trying to make it. We can complain about it, things have changed, fuckin fish… get your own fuckin tank… or… we can make the best of it and see things with a new set of eyes and new opportunities.
I strongly recommend this article http://wired.com/wired/archive/14.09/nettwerk.html
Just fell on my screen today, very interesting and relevant stuff.
Now this isn’t specifically directed at anyone, I’m talking in general, because I have been thinking a lot about this lately.
elementoftime.net
musique à la carte in mp3 & wav.
Sonic-energy.net
Reviews, interviews, downloads, articles. |
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DETOX
Moderator
Started Topics :
296
Posts :
6194
Posted : Aug 26, 2006 03:07
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Dear Shawnodese no need for those tranquilisers,you see i dont have a problem to say my opinion loud since i dont need anyone to book me in any event and i do pay the artists that work with me (even if they are my friends) because thats the way things should work in the market
Other people who depend on others for bookings and releases and promotion can pretend to be PLURish and be carefull about their image in this forum and in their real life and try to keep good relationships with everyone but that is not me for sure.
Me i prefer saying what i really believe no matter if i have to face the rest of the forum afterwards,seems like i am not good in public relationships like you are
Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!! |
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