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DVD quality, a solution against mp3 downloads
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wsantos
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
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326
Posted : Apr 10, 2005 20:22
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On 2005-04-10 09:51, mocca wrote:
Anyone can rip the sound from a DVD so that won't help anything. Very few people can enjoy the full quality of a DVD because you need expensive equipment. And like Punit says few people can afford it to buy DVD's.
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i agree with you!
nowadays is so easy to rip DVD, so it doesn't change anything. CD or DVD whatever... of course the DVD is very better in quality but also DVD is more expensive that CD. |
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nikur
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
139
Posted : Apr 10, 2005 20:24
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It was not really my intend to compare Vinyl to CD, but to compare CD to DVD.
And the reasons why we should move to DVD.
Mainly for the huge gap in quality between mp3 and DVD.
What concerns Vinyl, yes they depend on the manufacturing quality.
LPs do have a usable dynamic range however greater than the measured dynamic range would suggest, and LPs consistently have higher "relative" dynamics over digital formats.
But it doesn't really matter anymore since we are not going back to Vinyl, no matter what.
I cannot see any reason why a DVD should be more expensive then a CD.
Even if the DVD would be a bit more expensive in manufacturing, it would be a great sales tool.
Eventually people would want to hear and own "that" quality.
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nikur
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
139
Posted : Apr 10, 2005 20:32
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On 2005-04-10 20:22, wsantos wrote:
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nowadays is so easy to rip DVD, so it doesn't change anything. CD or DVD whatever... of course the DVD is very better in quality but also DVD is more expensive that CD.
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You are missing the point here.
Of course you can rip a DVD, but this is about downloading mp3s.
You can still go and download the latest album of artist XY, let's say you like what you hear on mp3, but now you would really want to hear the real mccoy in DVD quality.
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rodram
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
116
Posted : Apr 10, 2005 22:53
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On 2005-04-09 21:45, Bong_KR wrote:
good idea man, and im sure it will happen soon.
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I hope it will happen soon.
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 10, 2005 23:42
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On 2005-04-09 22:20, nikur wrote:
That is not a matter of opinion.
By definition, a digital recording is not capturing the complete sound wave. It is approximating it with a series of steps. Some sounds that have very quick transitions, such as a drum beat or a trumpet's tone, will be distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate.
In your home stereo the CD or DVD player takes this digital recording and converts it to an analog signal, which is fed to your amplifier. The amplifier then raises the voltage of the signal to a level powerful enough to drive your speaker.
A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost. The output of a record player is analog. It can be fed directly to your amplifier with no conversion.
This means that the waveforms from a vinyl recording can be much more accurate, and that can be heard in the richness of the sound.
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This is indeed not a matter of opinion: First up, all modern mastering and pressing plants use digital media before it goes to the metal head used to press the vynil so the discussion is allready mute.(Usualy U-matic tapes but these days many other systems are used).
Also, transients that are faster than 20Khz wouldn't be audible anyway. Think about how heavy a record player needle is and try and imagine it moving faster than 20Khz. Yeah right ... This doesn't happen. CD has the advantage here by a long-shot.
Anyway, a bit about vinyl:
* Vinyl is overcompressed so as to avoid the needle jumping out of the groove with extreme dynamics.
* The bass is mono because stereo bass would also make the needle jump out of the groove.
* Hardly any vinyl has any frequencies above 16Khz.
* Because of the amount of surface noise on vinyl (The needle scratching the surface) and because of the problem with low frequencies, a very heavy EQ is applied to the signal before pressing. (The RIAA curve). This EQ hypes the high-end and lowers the low end. The opposite EQ curve is applied to the signal during playback.
* Technics SL1200s are NOT Hi-Fi record players. So you don't even get the best out of your vinyl unless you have a very expensive high-end record player and a very high-end phono-amp with high-end circuitry to apply the reversed RIAA curve.
* Any Vinyl that isn't brand new has had a diamond scraping over it's relatively soft surface. That can't be good. 
* The manufacturing process of Vinyl involves several stages. Aliminium master, metal stamp etc. Did you read that? Metal STAMP! These things are stamped out! This isn't high precision technology!
* Dust, scratches, material imperfections, accumulated muck on the needle and other such things all contribute to the noise you hear when you play vinyl.
If you feed a perfect sine-wave to a good A/D converter and then back out through a good D/A converter, you will still have a perfect sine because of the lag filters on the D/A converter. The stepping people talk about when refering to digital audio is only when it is still digital. It is removed by the D/A converter. (Btw, if it was not removed, you would still have the sine wave but you would have all sorts of undesirable harmonics above it).
In other words, vinyl is shite compared to CD. It doesn't even come close! Give me a 320Kbps mp3 rip (LAME --preset-insane) from a CD over vinyl any day.
Now, back to the question. As most people (If anyone) can not tell the difference between a CD and a properly encoded mp3 at 320Kbps, releasing stuff on DVD won't help at all. They will still be ripped to mp3 ...
UnderTow
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brujo6
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
69
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 00:02
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[quote]
On 2005-04-10 23:42, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-04-09 22:20, nikur wrote:
In other words, vinyl is shite compared to CD. It doesn't even come close! Give me a 320Kbps mp3 rip (LAME --preset-insane) from a CD over vinyl any day.
Now, back to the question. As most people (If anyone) can not tell the difference between a CD and a properly encoded mp3 at 320Kbps, releasing stuff on DVD won't help at all. They will still be ripped to mp3 ...
UnderTow
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What a load of crap!
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 00:26
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Quote:
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On 2005-04-10 23:42, UnderTow wrote:
Also, transients that are faster than 20Khz wouldn't be audible anyway. Think about how heavy a record player needle is and try and imagine it moving faster than 20Khz. Yeah right ... This doesn't happen. CD has the advantage here by a long-shot.
Anyway, a bit about vinyl:
* Vinyl is overcompressed so as to avoid the needle jumping out of the groove with extreme dynamics.
* The bass is mono because stereo bass would also make the needle jump out of the groove.
* Hardly any vinyl has any frequencies above 16Khz.
* Because of the amount of surface noise on vinyl (The needle scratching the surface) and because of the problem with low frequencies, a very heavy EQ is applied to the signal before pressing. (The RIAA curve). This EQ hypes the high-end and lowers the low end. The opposite EQ curve is applied to the signal during playback.
* Technics SL1200s are NOT Hi-Fi record players. So you don't even get the best out of your vinyl unless you have a very expensive high-end record player and a very high-end phono-amp with high-end circuitry to apply the reversed RIAA curve.
* Any Vinyl that isn't brand new has had a diamond scraping over it's relatively soft surface. That can't be good.
* The manufacturing process of Vinyl involves several stages. Aliminium master, metal stamp etc. Did you read that? Metal STAMP! These things are stamped out! This isn't high precision technology!
* Dust, scratches, material imperfections, accumulated muck on the needle and other such things all contribute to the noise you hear when you play vinyl.
If you feed a perfect sine-wave to a good A/D converter and then back out through a good D/A converter, you will still have a perfect sine because of the lag filters on the D/A converter. The stepping people talk about when refering to digital audio is only when it is still digital. It is removed by the D/A converter. (Btw, if it was not removed, you would still have the sine wave but you would have all sorts of undesirable harmonics above it).
In other words, vinyl is shite compared to CD. It doesn't even come close! Give me a 320Kbps mp3 rip (LAME --preset-insane) from a CD over vinyl any day.
Now, back to the question. As most people (If anyone) can not tell the difference between a CD and a properly encoded mp3 at 320Kbps, releasing stuff on DVD won't help at all. They will still be ripped to mp3 ...
UnderTow
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UnderTow nice that u cleared all this up
Vinyl is gone. At the moment Mp3 rulez. And a 320 kbps mp3 is always better than vinyl.
I don't want music on dvds at the moment. CDs are good enough for me
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 00:30
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I want the dvd audio to come mainly because of 5.1, but then people would just rip em in ac3 or something..
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 01:12
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On 2005-04-11 00:02, brujo6 wrote:
What a load of crap!
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Excellent well thought out argument. LOL.
UnderTow |
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Cinos
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
58
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 08:37
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About the CD-Vinyl issue:
The sound quality is just about the same. Vinyl does not "play bass much fatter", the equipment does. Both break rather easily and must be cared for like jewels.
In the end it all comes down to size - CDs are handy, vinyls are bulky.
Not to mention laser is cooler than needles, and the way CDs reflect light is awesome.  |
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krelm
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
67
Posts :
648
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 14:23
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How the hell did this turn into a vinyl vs. CD argument? It wasn't the point of the original post anyways - it's like the pointless Mac vs. PC argument where people look for any reason to bring it up even when it doesn't matter.
Anyways, to the original post....
To justify releasing psytrance at DVD quality (vs. CD), there needs to be producers with enough studio skill to create something that is superior enough for people to notice the difference. Good luck finding more than a handful of those in the psy scene.
With 99% of the music that is out there today, releasing psy CDs at DVD quality would be akin to putting a horse turd on display in the Louvre.
And anyways, you would be hard-pressed to find a party with a sound system good enough to make it sound any better than a CD (or mp3 for that matter).
It's a nice thought, but total overkill right now, IMO.
-----------------
Dr. Krelm DJ Mixes and Broken Symmetry archives - http://www.krelmatrix.com
Broken Symmetry on MCast - coming in 2007.... |
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slyman604
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
263
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 14:40
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i think this would increase releases being ripped to mp3 by a huge factor. Do they even make portable dvd audio players? Someone would have to buy the dvd for listening to on their home stereo/dvd player and then rip it to mp3/audio cd if they wanted to listen to it anywhere else.
I also dont think you really gain anything that you can actually hear unless your talking about a surround mix with cd vs dvd audio.
If you make cars and sales are slumping you have a sale, lower the price and sell more cars. Im not sure why this concept is so lost on record labels. |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
Posts :
3803
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 15:02
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well you can include a normal cd within a dvd.. so it works as a cd in regular cd player..
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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rodram
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
116
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 16:17
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On 2005-04-11 14:23, krelm wrote:
Anyways, to the original post....
To justify releasing psytrance at DVD quality (vs. CD), there needs to be producers with enough studio skill to create something that is superior enough for people to notice the difference. Good luck finding more than a handful of those in the psy scene.
With 99% of the music that is out there today, releasing psy CDs at DVD quality would be akin to putting a horse turd on display in the Louvre.
And anyways, you would be hard-pressed to find a party with a sound system good enough to make it sound any better than a CD (or mp3 for that matter).
It's a nice thought, but total overkill right now, IMO.
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Good thinking.
But think about those producers that have the skill, that would be one awesome treat.
I don't know in our house everything is already DVD. Small dvd player, big stereo dvd. Sourround TV dvd.
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zatitude
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
229
Posted : Apr 11, 2005 21:11
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The myths that never seem to go away - take a look at what Nyquist had to say on digital music:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NyquistFrequency.html
With DVD there are different sound formats, for instance the DTS stream that accompanies a film, and a higher quality DVD-Audio which is 74 min of very high sampled rate sound only: 192 kHz (whereas most CDs get 44.1 kHz). Also DVD-Audio has 6 channels of sound. The only use for this at parties is maybe tracks are going to be produced in 5.1 so the sound can travel around the dance floor but who knows if and when this will ever happen.
CD are the de facto standard, and lots of DJ's are now buying in 320kbps mp3, converting to .wav and writing it to CDR to play out at a party, and no one really knows the diffs
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