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DJ SETS NOT LIVE ACTS
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John
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 29, 2003 19:31
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I dont buy the bit about the media - there are plenty of other underground scenes with little media coverage that also have live acst playing but that the DJ is still a big draw(acid techno, trance-techno etc).
I'm also dubious about using CDs per se making you lazy. I've got a friend who started on CDs - just cos he started playing goa stuff. As the years moved on he got more into trance-techno - of which most releases are on 12". But he got to the point where he was a lot more competant on CD decks than vinyl decks - so hes in the bizarre psoition of buying 12"s and burning them onto CD to play out on. But hes one of the tightest and longest mixers I know.
I would say its probably easier to get by on CD decks than vinyl - but its just laziness that stops DJs brushing up on their techniques - and most psy trance crowds no longer seem to expect anything more than competent DJs. |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
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Posted : Dec 8, 2003 04:08
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Quote:
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On 2003-11-26 18:56, Elysium Project wrote:
The problem is that in order to produce a really good "live" performance you need extra people on stage, tons of gear, visuals ect ect.
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I can name you one British psy-trance act (let's call them Band X) with 2 artist albums and releases on most of the major UK labels past and present under their belt, and almost a decade's experience of live performance (including Return To The Source, Astral Phoenix, Otherworld, Tribe of Frog and parties and festivals in the USA, Israel and Japan) whose current live set-up (since 2001) consists of up to 5 people playing:
*Digeridoo
*Keyboards (3 people)
*Electronic and acoustic percussion (3 people)
*Vocal samples and extra wierdness
The band members swap instruments often, with many members being equally proficient on two or more instruments. What is more, they love what they do, and with 5 people on stage performing the music the audience is hearing - and dancing like madmen when they're not actually playing - you can imagine the energy that can be generated on the dancefloor. (BTW - if the live act you're watching is dancing frenetically, they're almost certainly not playing anything...) Band X have been writing constantly all this time, and now have enough quality material to take the dancefloor on a journey lasting 2 hours or more, taking in many musical destinations on the way. Every set is different, not just because of the performance aspect, but because they have such a large pool of material to draw on.
Ok, they use CDs to play the tracks and the live stuff goes on over the top, but there's a good reason for that. With a rock band there is a dedicated mixing desk at the side of the stage which is used solely for monitoring - how many promoters are willing to hire a full monitoring system and front-of-house sound engineer? Or even on-stage monitors good enough to mix on? (and I don't mean DJ mixing here, but studio production type mixing). If the live act - who probably mix themselves on stage - can't hear what they're doing properly, how do you expect the dancefloor to get a good sound? This I think is one reason why many live acts play full mixes off CD or laptop - in a genre where production is all, they need to be able to guarantee the tracks sound the way they should.
Band X used to do things differently; they used to take their whole studio out on stage and play full sequenced versions alternating with mixes off DAT while they set the studio up for the next live track. Back when they were doing this (1994-2000), this was unusual even then, but as the band was 'local' (ie British) and had not had many releases, promoters did not offer fees in line with the show provided and the band felt they had to accept a low fee in order to get the gigs; some of their equipment was gigged to pieces and they couldn't afford to replace it.
Even now, 'live' acts who play their entire set without even touching the equipment they have asked promoters to spend hundreds of pounds hiring - live acts who spend their set dancing in front of a huge mixer with TWO CABLES plugged into it - get paid up to 5 times what Band X recieve for a full-on display of both studio skills and musicianship. But they love the scene, and they love performing, so despite knowing they will probably never be paid what they know they're worth, they'll keep playing as long as there are psy-trance parties out there.
If this post seems like a bit of a sales pitch for Band X, that's probably because in part it is... the act I'm talking about is my own, OOOD/Unconscious Collective. But I wanted to show that there are acts out there who try and give the dancefloor and promoters good value and who value integrity (artistic as well as honesty).
About other points on this thread:
I think DJ skills are less developed in this genre because the tracks are written to stand alone; in techno or house many tunes are written with their use as DJ tools in mind, and are intended to be used in layers with one another, hence lots of EQing and crossfader action by the DJ. With trance, tracks have enough variation to make that unnecessary.
CD v vinyl... get a life... there are sound financial reasons why CD is more prevalent and a lot of them are to do with the whole copying f*ckup, and the fact that the psy-trance market has never been very big.
Mad Ron - I agree with you about the loss of 'the journey' at parties. I think this is the result of a gradual shift in DJing style across the board; if people never have a full-on trance experience because a DJ is unaware of the potential for it and just plays tracks one after the other, then that person will not know what to aim for when they start DJing themselves. The best parties I EVER went to (no exceptions) were held bi-monthly in Dalston for a few years in the late 90s, and had the same 4 DJs every time.
Let me repeat that.
4 DJs ALL NIGHT (10pm - 7 am)
THE SAME 4 DJS EVERY TIME
Ok, so those DJs were Mark Allen, Yazz, Lol and Chrisbo... not your average line-up... and the decor transformed Tyssen St. from floor to ceiling into a jungle-hidden temple (and it's a f*cking big room!) but the point is that between them they had the technique, experience and tuneage to make 9 hours flow like nothing I've heard since. It's because of Pagan that I'm doing what I'm doing today.
IMO someone needs to take a risk... book the 4 best DJs and put them on all night. No live acts (except maybe for their New Year's Eve parties when we'd be glad to play, just as we did at Pagan!  )
Thanks for reading this far!
Colin
 Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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pavi
IsraTrance Junior Member
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478
Posted : Dec 8, 2003 12:07
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Respect for writing that far!
Looks already as though the years of undervalued gigging are paying off, keep at it mate!
And I completely agree, give me 4 good DJs anynite to weave together a 10 hour journey-tale. That musical journey should be the essence of any party IMO. And is what sets great from good performances apart, be it DJ or live. Its clear when an artist plays with feeling and structure or if they play the latest 'killer' trax back to back ego-style. That is the only judgment I try to make at a party, the rest - DJ/live/equipment/people on stage - is all secondary to that main 'vibe.'
Within this timeless gathering,
a shining light does dance,
lost from conscious memory,
but visible in trance!
www.alchemyrecords.co.uk |
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Jon Kenobi
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 11, 2003 15:23
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First of all great thread! This is something that I've been talking about with a few people recently, and IMO DJ sets work so much better than live artist performances.
I have spent so much money going to big parties that have high door prices because of expensive live acts, and have come away from the night feeling as though the night has been incomplete!
Psytrance is journey music, Full Stop! it is the only type of music that creates epic soundscapes to get completely and totally immerssed in! A good dj will weave this journey to a peek that no live act will ever achieve (unless like Colin OOOD has mentioned they have a huge back cataloge of varying music to choose from).
Live performances for me always stay on one level, that same bass line, or that same synth pattern, the breaks and builds becoming soooo predictable. A good dj can overcome these drawbacks which make the journey evolve and seem oh so much more interesting!
I spend a lot of time finding the right tunes to mix together when I play out, which helps the journey to flow and evolve, and for me the mix is far more important than the tune itself! (obviously the tune has to be good in the first place!) It is the djs job to create an experience for the listener. It is the live acts job to promote their own music and sell more cds (which I dont blame em for, where would I get my tunes from to mix with if they didnt!)
Dont get me wrong I have seen some good live acts which I have enjoyed, but usually when they play for no more than 45mins - an hour.
As far as the scene being Live act orientated and promoters feeling the need to put on live acts because thats what the kids want to hear, for me is a load of old coblers. When I picked up the flyer for Astral Phoenix NYE I immediately new that that was NOT where I would be spending my new year, purley for the fact that it had 5 live acts!
I would much rather spend my time listening to 3 or 4 really good djs do their thing one after the other than 3 or 4 live acts.
(Kenobi finishes his rant feeling much better for getting it off his chest, and sits down with a nice hot cuppa coco)
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Mad Ron
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 12, 2003 13:43
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To confirm what has been said by a number of people in this thread, I went to Gecko in leeds for the third time on friday. Still no live acts and it wqas very good. Purple, Peter Didjital and Humphrey playing about 2 1/2 hrs each with a good flow and excellent trax.
Good to hear you give your views Collin. I've heard some spanking dj and live sets from the OOOD camp over the years and hope to hear many more...
Henry |
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Nicc
Started Topics :
4
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20
Posted : Dec 30, 2003 16:00
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Ok, first of all i'd just like to say that there have been some extremely enlightening opinions posted so far, things have been said by a few people who have obviously put thought into what they said, and had the background (whether it be partying or pruducing) to draw from when doing so.
As for the actual topic at hand, i think it's a little unfair to blame the fact that there are more live acts nowadays for the fact that parties no longer seem to have that flow that could keep you in a world of your own for hours, sometimes days on end, at the end of which it still takes you a few more days till you can properly digest the experience. The abundance of live acts is definitely a contributing factor to that loss, but it's not the full reason for it. I personally think party organisers have lost the abitlity to do that, whether they book live acts or dj sets, or both, most organisers cant throw a proper party any more, and it's because the organisers are trying to bring in the crowds, and they're using live acts to do it. So the abundance of live acts is the MEANS used by organisers to bring in crowds, which is f***king up our parties. Blaming the live sets themselves would be like blaming a sword for killing you instead of blaming the guy who stabbed you with it.
I don't see why a party with a few live acts shouldn't have that flow to it, all the organisers have to do is choose their live acts carefully, and more importantly, choose the timeslots better. There was a party i went to a few years ago that stands out in my mind, i can't remember exactly who all played, there were a few DJs in the early half of the night, and at about 2 or 3am there was a live act or 2, with the music getting pretty hard and dark by that point. Then some DJs well into the moring, and the morning set (and the party) got wrapped up by a live set by Atmos a bit before noon the next day, followed by a local DJ who kept that morning vibe going for a few more hours, with a bit more stomp to it. By the time the party ended the whole crowd was still jumping around in the sun with the biggest smiles imaginable on their faces. I really wish i could remember who played, but what stuck out in my mind was that the party flowed very well, because the DJ and live act timeslots were chosen with care, so each DJ or producer could play his own style of music, with a carefully thought out line-up providing the flow.
So, i guess what i mean to say is that a lot of debate is going into the means by which our parties are getting ruined, not the reason these means are being employed. The reason, in my opinion, is money. Producers want bigger crowds and bigger parties so they can make more money, they book live acts because it draws bigger crowds. It also seems they would rather spend more money booking more live acts, than spend more time and care thinking about the flow and atmosphere of their parties because they want a bigger party, not necessarily a better one. Not that i think live acts are a bad thing, but if they booked, the organisers should think carefully about who they are booking and when they should play.
Sorry about the long, drawn-out ramble.
Happy New Year everyone.
Nic |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
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Posted : Dec 30, 2003 17:30
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Well said, I agree. There are certain parties around at the moment who have, say, 5 live acts in the night - all from the same stable, all wich a similar vibe. I can't imagine those parties having as good a 'flow', 'journey' or whatever, as an event with a more varied selection of music.
Strawberries and cream tastes great, but strawberries and cream for every meal soon becomes tiresome...
Quote:
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On 2003-12-30 16:00, Nicc wrote:
As for the actual topic at hand...
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Haha... fair play.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Astral Mike
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 4, 2004 06:47
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On 2003-12-30 17:30, Colin OOOD wrote:
Well said, I agree. There are certain parties around at the moment who have, say, 5 live acts in the night - all from the same stable, all wich a similar vibe. I can't imagine those parties having as good a 'flow', 'journey' or whatever, as an event with a more varied selection of music. |
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Colin, i must assume you are directly refering to the last EVER astral phoenix on NYE, since no other party in the history of the uk psy-trance scene has ever successfully attempted to showcase 5 psy-trance live acts in one night. So since you never made it to this last apx, you and every one else posting negativity to building such a line up were actually pre-judging. fact!
Just check the reviews on the psy-uk forum or indeed this forum (as i'm sure you alreday have), and i'm sure you will see that there is not one single negative thing to say about this event!
Even you say after the event that people must have had a "fantastic time....", and that you think it was a shame you never went!
Colin OOOD Posted on psy-trance.co.uk : Jan 2 2004, 08:10 PMQuote:
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"Wow... looks like a great party; sounds like you all had a fantastic time. Shame I never managed to make it to the Rex myself; |
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http://www.psy-trance.co.uk/psyforum2003/index.php?showtopic=4521&st=75
Astral Phoenix (RIP) NEVER tried to follow a formula, and always tried to push the envelope of what was possible & tried to open new doors to the scene. Since this was the last astral phoenix & concidering i've been working closely with hommega from the start i really wanted show my support for this lablel, and i wished that you and everyone else could understand & respect this.
lastly i think you will find (if you listen) that sub6, psysex, delirous, hujaboy & psycraft (not to mention cosma (rip) & astrix) all have their own unique sound, and all have a different vibe even though they come from the same label (name another label with such calibre of artists?). Well thats my opionon, and this is the REAL reason for showcasing these artists ALL in one night. It would be interesting to see if anyone thinks otherwise (or would concider attempting such a line-up ever again?!). I'm very proud of what Astral pHoenix has achieved (esp over the last 18 months) and not you nor anyone else will ever convince me otherwise.
Having said that, it was never my intention to exclusively make parties to promote big "Live" acts. Making parties began as the only oppotunity to show that i had faith in myself & the psy-trance scene (esp from other countries, like israel) & that it was possible to make a dream come true and to play in the top division (even when it was classed by many as 3rd in the late 90's). I hope i can once again prove this at the next "tribe of frog", and show that its possible to create a unique dj expierence that is as enjoyable (if not more) than your "Live" OOOD performance!
.......... game on!!
* BooM *
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nobody_3
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 4, 2004 13:02
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How can you assume that he's speaking of that particular party here? Don't assume things before you know the facts! I am sure there's plenty of parties around with 5 liveacts from the same stable sounding exactly the same! But I am not assuming anything just guessing
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Mad Ron
IsraTrance Junior Member
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56
Posted : Jan 4, 2004 17:46
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so nice to see you posting on this thread, Mike, as it is so relevant to your last ever astral phoenix and many others. How nice that you showed that it is possible to pull off a decent journey with that many live acts. Have I misconstrued it or did you just bite off colin's head in the above post? seems rather odd (ood)...not a very 'give peace a dance' attitude... |
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nobody_3
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 4, 2004 18:09
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Quote:
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On 2004-01-04 06:47, Astral Mike wrote:
Astral Phoenix (RIP) NEVER tried to follow a formula,
lastly i think you will find (if you listen) that sub6, psysex, delirous, hujaboy & psycraft (not to mention cosma (rip) & astrix) all have their own unique sound, and all have a different vibe even though they come from the same label
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Mate you say that Astral Phoenix did not follow a formular.... In my opinion the above mentioned names are indeed following a very visible formular named Full-On....
Where's the diversion in those names except for maybe Sub6 and Cosma (eventhough I dont see them as so different from the rest)?
Of course this is my private opinion but I am sure there's quite a few people out there that would agree that the above mentioned names do sound quite similar because they all are from Israel and as a fact that they all come from the same label which mostly release the same genre (formular) of music |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Jan 5, 2004 01:00
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Sometimes things that are said make me wonder what is behind the one that says them.. I enjoyed very much reading Colin's thoughts about the subject, and so I enjoyed reading Mike's answer regarding what he objected to or felt connected to. Then I have red a post of someone that looks to pick up a little quarrel.. After he did.. he also developed his issue to bring the quarrel to the well known and chewn everyone vs. full on and I even wont go into the anti Israelism in the post that happened in the past.
Since I am not Psycraft, Hujaboy, Psysex, Delirious, Sub6, Astrix or Cosma ( rip ) ( neither I make the genre some call full on music most of the time ) but I know 90% of them and know their music pretty well I would say...
Mr. E - I dont know how much of these artists u heard lately ( I bet one or two ) but..
Psycraft have in majority of cases a very distinctive sound, that is not very full on and quite a lot of live elements that make their music more 'musical' and their sound is warm.
Psysex are similar to Psycraft only in the name.. They make extremely psychedelic trance, use a lot of sampling in their tracks with a lot of meaning and humour and their sound is more intense and less warm
Sub6 do a variety of genres and the only way I know to describe their style is all in one. Their sound is very sharp, they use a lot of very well timed breakdowns in their tracks, use alot of singing / real time talking + their bass work is something to dive into since it is completely different of the two before and the other after
Delirious is the only group I dont know too well so I wont go on
Hujaboy makes psy trance that is much more tekky then all of the others, he is much more dark and chaotic in his atmosphere and definitely creates what was once called 'Night music' - less melodic then others his sound is full of fx and is very industrial in its nature
Cosma had / made a genre of his own, that culminated in his unique talent of musical story telling and creating unbelievably deep atmospheres. Cosma's sound in comparison to Sub6 and Psysex is not that sharp and precise but the drive to his songs comes from the amazing choices of sounds and the time to use his sequences / loops. Like Sub6 his sound is usually slower than the 'ordinary' full on.
Now mr. E it looks to me that the only thing that is common between these acts is that they come from Israel. That aint that bad actually.
Also I believe u never visited Mike's parties, how for Christ's sake u know for sure he does formula's?
I played in one of his events and damn I can count hardly on one hand same quality of fun and good time that was there for heeps of ppl.
hmm
And if u ask for my opinion - 3 live acts in one party is far too much in 90% of the cases. 5 live acts from same label is far too much in 99% of the cases. Like in every nice equasion there is exception.. in the case of the last Astral Phoenix I have no clue how it was, but in the one I played in, with Astrix and IM, it was quite great.
Sorry for long post but just got into it and couldnt stop u know - Colin - I like your way of thought
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Jan 5, 2004 01:08
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OOOOOoooops
And since I wrote all I did... So there will be no ill meaning to things Astral Phoenix is RIP therefore there is no asslicking here or wish for future gigs and zillions of $$$$$$$
Muhahaha
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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nobody_3
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 5, 2004 02:09
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Can you ever write anything without assuming what I think, mean, do or what music I have listened to or not Yuli? Your attacks on me are getting quite boring mate.
So there's no mistakes here... Yes Yuli I have actually listened to all the above mentioned bands/artists... And I still think they sound quite similar.... ! Sorry if I dont see eye to eye with you - I hope you can accept that?
If you can't take the fact that I dont think it's that amazing what they do then that's cool with me... Just dont assume things as you tend to do evertime you dont agree with me! Thank you.
And no I have not been to his parties... That does not mean that I cant have an opinion about his lineup = formular!
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 5, 2004 03:43
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Mike, there is no competition between us and I'm sorry to see you try and start one. You are very good indeed at what you do; that is a major reason why you have been booked to play at so many first class nights in the past few years. Our styles are vey different and I'm sure that if you play after our live set you will do nothing that will decrease the numbers on the dancefloor. You don't need to prove yourself to me or anyone else.
Relax.
Fart a little.
This thread was started as a discussion on the relative merits of live and DJ sets, and once again you seem to have taken certain comments far too personally. Sure, I bet it was a fantastic party and I wish I could have seen Sub 6 live. I did indeed have Astral Phoenix in mind when I made my comment about '5 live sets in a night' - but it was relevent to the discussion at hand and was not meant as a personal dig at you. I freely admit that my assumption that all 5 live acts are from the same stable and have a similar, 'neo full-on' sound was inappropriate given that I am not as properly familiar with the work of all those artists as I should have been to make that comment, and for that I apologise. However it is, in the end, a subjective matter, and since you and Kris (both people whose opinions I respect, although you need to lighten up a little at times too, Kris! ) both seem to have strongly-held and well-researched opposing opinions on this, my apology only covers the fact of my basic assumption and not its accuracy!
But that doesn't detract from the original point which was that it's not the names that make the night, but the music that's played. Putting on 5 live acts for the sake of putting on 5 live acts - though it must have been a logistical nightmare and given you an immense feeling of satisfaction when it all paid off; you have every right to be proud of your achievments with AP - is not an automatic passport to a party that will make people TRANCE, which is surely the point of all this 'trance' music. And I make no particular claims to my own music in this connection, much though I wish I could.
Do you have specific answers to the points raised in Nicc's post above?
Come on Mike, I never wanted to pick a fight with you so stop being so defensive again. I want to enjoy Tribe of Frog, and I'd very much like to enjoy working with you again, but that's not going to happen if I feel like I'm walking on eggshells everytime I bump into you at the party. |
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