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Darkpsy styles ?
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 15, 2010 20:03
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There is a war in my mind regarding genrefication. On one hand, yes, you need some sort of genre or classification or organization if you are going to talk about music with other people or have a music library that doesn't confound you with its massiveness - humans like to organize stuff.
However, how many times have you seen people post music (myself included in this) or attempt to create music that from the get-go puts itself into a box ("hey check out my new FULL ON track, or my new DARKPSY track!"). I think that this is one of the major driving forces behind copy paste music and the average quality of trance releases going down over the past decade or so.
If you try from the start to produce music within the constraints of a certain genre or ruleset, and you do it very well then someone else hears it and and then tries to imitate that....you get a spiral of music cloning that ends up (imo) degrading itself, and then you have parties where the music sounds like the same track on loop for hours and hours.
Imo people need to focus on genres less and music more, whatever that means
  If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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filter
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Posted : Nov 15, 2010 20:49
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i think the phrase 'if you try to produce music within the constraints of a certain ruleset' is an oxymoron...
the 'classification' of genres, is only for studying, it should never be used literally when producing. i basically wrote my article as music student/researcher, and it should help for djs and people that are interested in knowing the styles and history of the movement itself. it was never intended for producers to 'follow'.
if someone really follows 'rules' to make psychedelic trance, please stop inmediately!!!
listening to other artists' work is very helpful, but it should never be about that, if you are looking for inspiration go beyond trance, listen to other styles, learn how to play an instrument, etc.
actually most of the artists i mentioned at least are people who always took their inspiration from everywhere except trance, they just used trance as platform to create their own thing. i think derango, alien mental, procs and kindzadza are good examples of people that listen to all kinds of music and pour these ideas in their compositions.
the only way to stop the style from 'degrading' is if artists do not 'degrade' themselves by following blindy the 'rules of trance'. the idea is to become a 'new' kindzadza, not to sound 'like' kindzadza...
Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 15, 2010 21:19
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I certainly would like to think that people don't make psytrance with a certain genre or ruleset in mind...
however, there is a lot of music out there that sounds painfully similar - as for the exact reason for that, I can only guess...
Heh, ever see the really bad movie "multiplicity"? The one where the guy gets cloned a bunch of times and then a clone gets cloned and the cloned clone is really stunted and kind of retarded compared to the original? That's how I feel about some of the trance being released these days.
btw cheers for the historical trance genre post, I may not agree with everything you wrote in there but it was definitely interesting.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 15, 2010 21:39
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On 2010-11-15 20:49, filter wrote:
the 'classification' of genres, is only for studying, it should never be used literally when producing. i basically wrote my article as music student/researcher, and it should help for djs and people that are interested in knowing the styles and history of the movement itself. it was never intended for producers to 'follow'.
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+2012 
Classification is an academic exercise. It makes it easier to see the family tree of whatever you’re classifying. And it makes it easier for a novice to learn what he’s dealing with. As in “generally, Darkpsy tracks feature this and that, as opposed to New-School Goa tracks that feature that and this”. This way, a total noob can say: “Oh, cool, I’ll check out Khetzal and Filteria first and later ease myself into Axis Mundi’s psy IDM or cinderVOMIT’s Black-Hole Surfung Music”. This way one will not have a wft moment listening to Goa after he was told that “psytrance” = Minimal Monster and Opsy, like it happened to me.
Classification is useful, even if only for reasons of keeping historical record. 
As for producing in a particular genre, it depends on how much you constrain yourself. There is nothing wrong about producing full on, as long as you don’t sound like a less talented brother of Astrix. I am sure that when Chopin was writing his polonaises, it was deliberate. I don’t think he smoked a joint and jammed on a piano until he liked the sound, then woke up in the morning and realized that it’s a polonaise. 
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 15, 2010 22:32
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Tip o' the hat to classifications for historical merit aside, I still feel like this obsession in the psy scene to micro-sub-genre the fuck out of everything leads to less innovation and more imitation - why does something have to be a 'hybrid' of 2+ styles....why can't it just be something new?
I fall into the trap myself, I'll listen to something and say to myself 'oh hey, a Goa melody! sweet!' - what makes a track full-on, or goa, or high-tech, or forest? For years the term full-on for me and a couple of friends meant something 100% completely different than what other people meant when they said full-on - what I was referring to as full-on other people referred to as forest, or even dark sometimes...and i'd be like...wha??
I have more fun when I classify less and listen/dance more...same goes for production. When I started out I was like...ok I am going to make PSY TRANCE and I want it to sound like a combination of this artist, and that artist....or I want it to sound like what I consider full-on to be, or goa...blah blah - now I just write w/e the fuck comes out and I feel like my (extremely novice) sound is less derivative now that I'm not attempting to imitate and constrain. Certainly that is purely my own personal experience and I can't speak for other producers though...
Certainly there is nothing 'wrong' with producing music of a particular genre, but imho that would most likely lead to a sound that is more derivative than innovative - and it's kind of sad to see so much derivative copy-paste music in a genre whose only rule is that there are no rules :\
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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filter
Moderator
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Posted : Nov 16, 2010 02:46
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i really dont think the problem is 'classification' when it comes to producing music...
i really think what happened is that most of the younger generation only takes their inspiration from trance. where Alien Mental listens to the creaks of the wood floor and IDM to get new ideas, new artists listen to Alien Mental to do something new.
And this is the problem, a lot of artists dont study music or dont learn how to play music, they just get high, trip with some style, and then just buy a pc and try to do it. the classification of genres for me does not cause lazyness and poor work, thats basically caused by the way you choose to live.
i think that basically people dont work as hard as before, i think that new artists are not searching deep enough to discover something new. of course there are exceptions, but in general what i see is this phenomenom of people without musical background trying to make music.
the 'perfect' artist would be aware of all the sub styles, and he should already be past that. artists always admire the previous artists, but its always this admiration that takes them to go further. for example glosolalia with psykovsky, frantic noise and penta, etc.
anyways its absolutely not true that there are no rules in trance, of course there are, but thats the whole point, to have these rules to bend them, ignore them, follow them or destroy them, its lika jazz, its a loose structure that is open to any changes... Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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Fometrius
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 16, 2010 02:51
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Quote:
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On 2010-11-16 02:46, filter wrote:
i really dont think the problem is 'classification' when it comes to producing music...
i really think what happened is that most of the younger generation only takes their inspiration from trance. where Alien Mental listens to the creaks of the wood floor and IDM to get new ideas, new artists listen to Alien Mental to do something new.
And this is the problem, a lot of artists dont study music or dont learn how to play music, they just get high, trip with some style, and then just buy a pc and try to do it. the classification of genres for me does not cause lazyness and poor work, thats basically caused by the way you choose to live.
i think that basically people dont work as hard as before, i think that new artists are not searching deep enough to discover something new. of course there are exceptions, but in general what i see is this phenomenom of people without musical background trying to make music.
the 'perfect' artist would be aware of all the sub styles, and he should already be past that. artists always admire the previous artists, but its always this admiration that takes them to go further. for example glosolalia with psykovsky, frantic noise and penta, etc.
anyways its absolutely not true that there are no rules in trance, of course there are, but thats the whole point, to have these rules to bend them, ignore them, follow them or destroy them, its lika jazz, its a loose structure that is open to any changes...
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+1
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Braindrop
Braindrop
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Posted : Nov 16, 2010 19:26
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Quote:
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On 2010-11-16 02:46, filter wrote:
And this is the problem, a lot of artists dont study music or dont learn how to play music, they just get high, trip with some style, and then just buy a pc and try to do it. the classification of genres for me does not cause lazyness and poor work, thats basically caused by the way you choose to live.
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+100. Thank you!
www.braindrop.in |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 16, 2010 19:40
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I really don't think that it's any one thing that is 'THE cause' of the issue of copy paste music, I think it is a number of different things....
I think your premise of the younger generation only taking their inspiration from trance has some truth to it
I think that the genres/styles having been around for a while contributes as well
However, I have a big issue with your statement of 'this phenomenon of people without musical background trying to make music'
This is bad, why? More people making music is a good thing, even if the music that they are making isn't particularly awesome.
10 years ago, if you wanted to make trancey computer music you needed a *lot* of shit to make it happen. It was expensive and you needed a pretty good musical base in order to produce something. One of the great things about this was that due to the difficulty only people who were really into it were able to make tunes - thus the average quality of releases was higher than it is now. Also, the genres were much less defined than they are now.
However, the barrier to entry was high so less people were making music. With the advent of the PC studio and online communities, online learning etc there is a gigantic boom of new people entering into production with little to no musical experience.
So let's make up a scenario - because of the lower cost of entry to making trance, you have x number of new artists that would never have otherwise made music. I'm sure some of them will make derivative music, but there is more raw potential in the world for music because of this lower cost of entry and so even if the vast majority of it is complete shit, there is that extra chance for something new and wonderful to come into the world.
Also you should probably take into account the healing and learning aspect of making music. I can think of a lot worse things to be doing with your spare time than attempting to make music.
Just because you have no prior classical music training does not mean you cannot learn. There are countless examples of very successful innovative people who came into musical atypically or taught themselves how to do shit...and that is one of the most fascinating aspects of electronic music production to me...it's modern folk music!
If you have a PC and can download or buy some software, you can (try to) make music. That is fucking awesome. It may really, really suck until you learn enough music theory and synthesis and engineering but there are so many great resources (including this site, and established artists like you sharing knowledge) out there to learn so that in time if you are serious about it you can make something cool and have fun doing it.
I mean, what are you trying to say? That if you haven't been playing keyboard and guitar or something since birth you should just...not try? Because you don't have a musical background?
F that man, I have no musical background and music production has completely changed my entire life and I know I am not alone...
I mean, what's the worst that could happen...more bad music? There will always be bad music in every genre. However, that one track or one album from an artist that would not have existed had the barrier to entry been as high as it was is worth 1000 bad tracks.
my 2 (well, more like 200) cents If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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filter
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Posted : Nov 16, 2010 20:27
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hey there
I thought the debate was more about people doing innovative and fresh music, specially in dark psy. I thought it was more about why there are so many copycats instead of new sounds. I'm going to bring it over to that side again...
I recommend you see the documentary 'exit through the giftshop'. after seeing this, im not entirely sure that everyone should do art. But in general terms of course anyone should at least give it a try, no matter how little musical background they have. My point was never about making a judgement about who is 'allowed' to make music or not. Music is healing and everyone should give it a try if they feel like it.
Anyone can make music in their houses to have fun. but if we are talking about making music to make something interesting is a whole different debate. I'm not against experimenting in your house, actually that's how electronic music was created, by freaks, freaking out in their home studios. And thank god technology is more available now, otherwise we would have never even discovered psychedelic trance down here in Argentina.
But having fun in your studio is not the same as 'redefining' a music style. Psychedelic trance is a style that is well known for pushing the boundaries of production and composition in general, you should at least work really hard before playing/releasing/etc. I'm not saying you should be able to play 40 instruments and write 20 operas, I'm just saying that you should put your ass in the chair and work and study until you get it right. Not 'right' for other people's ears, but for yours, i think one has to be very sincere when it comes to art.
What happened in the darkpsy scene is that basically a lot of young people just started doing new labels and small parties promoting a more amateur sound. Many young artists were so eager to participate that they started releasing whatever they bounced out of their pcs, in crappy cds, with crappy artwork. This happened particularly in the more hi tech/666/evil stuff. And for me in a way, as playing and releasing gives you a certain 'sense' of belonging to the scene, i think thats where they stop to try to go further.
As you said very well, technology is available, information is available, so why the music got worse? If all the vsts, and tricks can be obtained online, why there has been a steady decline in quality of releases?
And once again my answer is the same, is the responsibility of each artist, its not about the tools or the tricks or the history of the movement, its about a sincere need to express and represent yourself in the most accurate and beautiful way using music and art. For the last years there has been so many releases using satanist imagery, 200 bpm tracks with noisy leads all the way thru, how can anyone expect that to get better? its a dead end...
Darkpsy got crappy after many young eager artists started releasing their first tracks straight on cds and online releases, I think this has to do with the fact that these young people only take their inspiration in their trips with psychedelic trance, but once again, psychedelic trance has to be fed by different sources than psychedelic trance, and if this is not done, it simply dries out in repetition... Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 16, 2010 21:00
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Great post! Not sure I can really add anything of substance to that. I do completely agree that new producers need to do more work before releasing.
Thankfully there are still some labels that do quality control.
Curious - I assume you had a musical background before getting into psychedelic trance, but once you did how long did it take you to amass the required knowledge and engineering skill to make tracks of a high enough quality that you were happy to play them out?
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 17, 2010 00:42
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^ I'd like to hear that answer too.
I've just started sitting down and plunking out kicks and basslines and want to see what all my music experience, both playing and listening, will produce.
But I can already tell, it'll take many many tracks to reach a point where I'm creating MY OWN music, not a reverberation of something I've heard that I like.
(I know, OT ) |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 17, 2010 16:47
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daark
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Posted : Nov 17, 2010 17:57
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filter
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Posted : Nov 17, 2010 18:31
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Curious - I assume you had a musical background before getting into psychedelic trance, but once you did how long did it take you to amass the required knowledge and engineering skill to make tracks of a high enough quality that you were happy to play them out?
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My musical background was trying to play in bands thru my teenage years, with many many failures hahah . I learned how to play guitar and bass and some drums, then got into electronic music with a friend that was into idm/industrial and then went on to nu metal. Then when no bands worked and nothing happened, me and Matias (frantic noise/megalopsy) started to do trance around 2001/2002.
When we started the bar wasnt that high to tell you the truth, around 2001 most of the early 'darkpsy' didnt have such a good sound quality and design in general. We just started to do music because we enjoyed it and suddenly a local dj heard about us and we played our first party in 2003.
Until that point we had never really considered our music for playing or releasing, it was just something we didnt even think about.
Then in 2004 we did a free mp3 demo and thats when Trishula Records found us and they offered us to release a track in a compilation and they offered us to do an album.
So both the times we started to play and release was because someone else asked us to do it...
but answering your question, how long did it take me to feel my music made sense in order to play it? i guess never man haha , not even today i feel that . for sure i realize that people are not shooting themselves in the face when we play music, so that means at least that its not the worst crap in the world, but thats about it...
i think the only true way of doing it, is being sincere with yourself, if its not enough for you, then its not enough for the world to hear (yet). put your track on, then put something you like/admire, then put your track again. how does it sound? does it make sense? its just as simple as being true to yourself...
i would even say that already thinking how many tracks you need to get pro is something that will drive you crazy
i think that you should forget about playing/releasing when doing music. i think also sometimes the social factor of 'being part of the scene' plays a big part in the degradation of the style. i see trance more as a spiritual/artistic discipline that happens to interact with parties and hanging out, not the other way around.
i guess thats my point, to take away all the 'social' factors from the artistic process in order for the artists to achieve a connection with himself and the tools he will use to express himself...
Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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