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50 - 100 Tracks a week! :(
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Trold
Trold
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
123
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 13:15
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@spinndrift
I was at your web site, and have been thinking about a similare system......
After all, we need to adapt.....
How long have u been going on like this....
Can I ask u if your downloading system has been a sucsess......Do peolple REALY pay to download from your site?
  Time of illusion.
Http://trold.trance.net
http://www.myspace.com/troldmagic |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 14:16
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If you are talking about making money, my system is not the best example.
I been having the site up since august, and I cannot say it's a success comercially.
My idea behind the site is not commercial, and the music featured on the site is more selected because I personally like it and it being a bit more original sounding that what I find released.
Initially I only provided downloads, but some people want of course high resolution, lossless and CD's.
So I kind of felt obliged to arrange for a system wich is convenient for me and give at least something back to the artist.
So I give $0.65 per sold track to the artists, and the rest goes to paypal fees and server costs.
So, it's striktly non-profit on my behalf.
So far I give a lot less than a label could provide, so the artists featured do it more in a spirit of sharing than trying to make the most money from a track.
But I'm hoping that I can in the future get up the payments to the artists to be on level with releasing on a label thru a distrubutor.
So it basically an underground "bedroom label".
I do think "bedroom labels" is not bad per se. It's only when you get people running a small operation like mine complaining about their bad income it annoys me. If they see it as a non-profit operation then fine, but if they see it as a commercial operation it should be run like one.
I think if a similar system was done by a already sucessful lablel and was promoted properly it would of course have more potetial, but not still a saviour for the scene as yet.
But the future will change, and for a commercial business it can be well worth trying to be a bit ahead.
For example the biggest tabloid in seden have been putting very much effort in their website for many years, but getting not hardly any direct income from it.
To some people it seemed crazy that they pretty much gave away the whole paper for free when it was costing them money.
Now they are making loads of money on advertising and subscribers and is the most visited site in sweden I belive and the envy of the rest of the industry.
I think a good label investing in a similar system would get back the cost of developing and hosting the system after approx. one year.
I would see it as a good free promotion, and feel quite assured that the system will give quite a big return in the future.
If you like a little explanation of how I calculated:
Systems like iTunes was a while ago responsible for about 3% of the mainstream music sold.
I think there is many reasons why the trance scene would be likely to have even better results.
The global spead and high internet presence mainly.
Counting on the 3% though, say a label release 5 CD in a year and sell 2000 copies each.
Then you would think they should sell about 300 CD's worth of downloads in a year.
If they had their own system they could say take $0.30 per sold track at $1, give $0.50 per track for the artists. That leaves $0.20 for payment transfer charges.
A CD worth, say 10 tracks, makes $3 per CD so that would give $900 income for the label and $1500 extra for the artists in a year.
I can offer to set up a system for around $700 and hosting for a year could be about $200.
Within a couple of years the system would be generating a few $1000 for the label I am quite sure of.
So, for a label it +-0 i would think if they set up a system now, but it will cost less than a CD to do and will give them profit in the future.
Many small labels hardly make any profit from the CD in the end and fact is that many times it can take a year before the label get money from the distributor, so a CD pressing do not pay off straight away either.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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tortas
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
44
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 14:46
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well it seems to be an endless topic....
Cheers mr. spindrift i agree with most of your posts at this topic
when we are talking about psytrance(dancefloor oriented music) i really think artists should have theyr main income at they r live acts, and as i see it is not copy that kills your music, WHO kills your music are those people who make money with it sutch as SOME label managers and party organizers with out working for it.
and i must say all this complaining about this and that doesnt take no one anywhere. I ve been making music for a year and didn t received one single euro for it and i dont complain.....
and i am not a wealthy person, far from it
i think mp3 download made music a smaller buisness for some people and that made them very pissed of, and im not refering to musicians who must find alternative ways to make money from music(here im sorry, i dont have new ideas for now )
And also cheers for mr. sherlokalien he has made a point there
hope no one was offended my respect to all artist speaking here just wanted to give my point of view
hugs to all 
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Ott^
OTT
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
488
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 20:33
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On 2005-02-16 12:33, Spindrift wrote:
Do you really get "a few quid" per sold copy??
That would be a truely amazing deal you have.
It's normally more like that you would have gotten a few pence if the person spend quite many quid on buying your CD.
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A few pence? Sounds like I have a better deal than you...
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So if someone feel it's ridicoulos to pay what they have to pay for a CD in the shop on the basis on trying to help the artist I can understand that. |
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Nice rationalisation, but I think it has more do do with a basic choice between "paying" and "not paying", and if a supermarket opened up in my town which gave away its stock for nothing, all the other shops would go bust and everyone would shop there.
I don't buy the whole "poor, ripped off music buyer" argument at all. Cocaine and ecstasy are a huge rip-off but I know plenty of people who will spend £50 on drugs in one night without question.
I can just see them arguing with the dealer in the corner of a party - "Hey - this stuff is a rip-off - I think you should give it to me for free..." before pointing out the unfairness of the supply chain.
Bottom line is, people build their music collections for free because they can.
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| If you prefer to look for scapegoats |
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Didn't have to look very far - greedy little twat is on here boasting about his "100 tracks a week" - although none of them are mine I'm sure. He'll be the same person whining on forums in a year or two about how all the good labels have gone bust and theres still no good music for him to download...
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| on why you don't get enough money on sitting doing what you think is fun, |
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Are you implying that somebody who likes their job shouldn't be paid for it?
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| then look at the industry instead of your fans.
The fans behaviour will not change because of winching, but by a conscious effort from the people who should sell your music to provide a better service.
And your income might also change because of a more just deal and less unnecessary links between you and the consumers.
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No - I don't see anybody's behaviour changing anywhere soon. As long as there is a choice between "free" and "not free" - most will choose "free".
Not judging anyone for it - just making the observation. You can call it "winching" if it helps you to make your point.
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Kemic-Al
Kemic-Al
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
483
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 21:37
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Oh well ganjagil, I thought you knew what it takes to make music and how much work and dedication, you are trying to make it yourself ! I thought you knew better man ! then coming in here and bosting that you do 50/100 downloads a week and then you complain that they all shit and your favourite artists turning commercial ! boy you got some nerve I am sorry to say !
A question though for you, you spend so much time d/l all that music ! and you listen to it all throughly well enough to say that it's shit and then you sleep also you find time to make music WOW !
....my suggestion to is, don't take so much time to download shit music otherwise you gonna end up making shit music yourself,
....it seems that this topic has made you well popular now has it !
Ps.Ott^ man ! do you suggest any Knitting sites  |
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sherlockalien
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
629
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 21:55
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ott, you do have a good point, and its a matter of priorities and how they will spend their money
but ott.. there will always be the choice between free music or not, because its impossible to stop piracy....
thats why I dont think its even worth it to discuss the possibility of nobody downloading music...
considering that people will download, what other measures can there be in order to make cd buying more attractive? I already noted, better covers, I already thought about labels making a deal with party organizers, and having a discount for a festival inside the cd booklet or something, about labels considering joining up (too many bedroom labels), about new concept products, etc... (and these are just from the top of my mind, and Im not even involved in any labels..)
I dont think its very good to complain before all options have been tried..
its like nasrudin, the sufi sage..
He had lost his donkey.. everybody in the town was moved by the situation, and was helping him look for the donkey.. they searched many many places.. Then nasrudin´s neighbour came to him and asked: ´But nasrudin, everybody is very moved, looking for your donkey, and you seem to be the only one who is not worried, why is that?´
and nasrudin answered: ´well, you see that hill over there? nobody looked over that hill.. if we look and the donkey is not there, THEN I´ll start worrying´
(btw, it will be great to see you in Brazil man.. all my support to you.. I was in transit, and will be in trancendence your original is in my case hehe, great music for sure) |
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Kelmi
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
138
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 22:07
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Word spindrift!!
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 22:10
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On 2005-02-16 20:33, Ott^ wrote:
A few pence? Sounds like I have a better deal than you...
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Interesting, are you really getting "a few quid". I'd be truly amazed if you get one quid per sold album, then you got a really fantastic deal.
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Nice rationalisation, but I think it has more do do with a basic choice between "paying" and "not paying".
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It would maybe be a choice if the labels offered a service at least on par with or preferable better than the P2P networks do.
There is not much material offered for people who do not want to bother with physical CD's and still want same resolution as they get in P2P and get want they want instantly and before they can find it elsewhere for free.
So, if someone can provide a better service for free than what labels that charge for their service can, then many people will use their consumers voice for the better service, if nothing else to tell the labels to sharpen up.
It has nothing to do with a supermarket giving things away for free.
We are not actually talking physical goods, the record industry is dealing in licenses, and cannot be compared to a supermarket in that sense.
Same goes with comparing to drugs.
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I can just see them arguing with the dealer in the corner of a party - "Hey - this stuff is a rip-off - I think you should give it to me for free..." before pointing out the unfairness of the supply chain. |
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Does he have an option.
Is there a dealer that always come instantly and deliver the drugs for free??
In that case he would probably argue with the salesman in the party and probably he will not even approach him.
I completly fail to see what you mean with this paralell.
Again, music is not equal to selling physical products.
Remember, people are buying licenses, not the physical product.
Why would I buy a license I cannot agree with and that is totally out of tune with reality.
If I want to DJ the record I would many times have to contact the label for permission, or in othe cases make sure the venue pay money to Britney Spears.
Pretty much all trance labels offer such unbelivably bad licenses that I really cannot see much sense not paying for it.
If you anyway know you will break the license it's stupid to buy it IMO.
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Are you implying that somebody who likes their job shouldn't be paid for it?
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I think it's quite unrealistic to expect to make a living out of only creating the music you like.
It never has been many that have been able to do that, and if you manage to do that well then you are blessed and very talanted/lucky.
To expect it and get upset if you can't is just being full of yourself.
On my statement:
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| then look at the industry instead of your fans.
The fans behaviour will not change because of winching, but by a conscious effort from the people who should sell your music to provide a better service.
And your income might also change because of a more just deal and less unnecessary links between you and the consumers.
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You replied:
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No - I don't see anybody's behaviour changing anywhere soon. As long as there is a choice between "free" and "not free" - most will choose "free".
Not judging anyone for it - just making the observation. You can call it "winching" if it helps you to make your point.
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I'm not sure if you are responding to my comment or not.
Are you saying that there is not chance for the labels to adopt, and they are doomed since the consumers don't care?
And you only separate between "free" and "not free".
You seem to forget that money is not really everything to everyone.
"Good" and "bad" is also factors people consider when they make their choice.
People buy expensive water on bottles, even if there is tap water for free.
Now with media it's the other way around. People can get a better service from P2P than from the labels/distributors/shops for free and get a slow and bad service if they pay.
Then something is wrong...and the coonsumers really do not care about breaking the law or supporting mostly the unnecessary chains inbetween them and the artists.
So when the labels provide a better service and sell you a better product or rather license, then well see if you are correct if people only want free and is not prepared to pay for quality.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Ott^
OTT
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
488
Posted : Feb 16, 2005 23:11
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On 2005-02-16 22:10, Spindrift wrote:
It has nothing to do with a supermarket giving things away for free.
We are not actually talking physical goods, the record industry is dealing in licenses, and cannot be compared to a supermarket in that sense.
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The analogy is very simple and you can theorise until the cows come home. As has been demonstrated many times, selling downloadable music online is simply not a viable business unless you have a hugely well known brand to ally it to and treat it as a tax deductable loss-leader. In other words, a cheap way of attracting new customers to your brand - Apple, Coke, Pepsi etc etc.
You tried it yourself and it didn't work. It didn't work because A. Not enough people were interested and B. Those that were know that they can get it free somewhere else.
Regardless of how popular ITunes and CokeMusic are, they are not nearly as popular as Kazaa and Morpheus and BitTorrent and never will be.
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| I completly fail to see what you mean with this paralell.
Again, music is not equal to selling physical products. |
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Can you demonstrate a REAL WORLD example of why buying a record and buying a toaster are in any way different to each other? I know there are conceptual, legal and philosophical differences, but the fact that you can't download a toaster from the internet in 3 minutes is the only one I can think of that is relevant.
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| I think it's quite unrealistic to expect to make a living out of only creating the music you like. |
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Well then I'm thankful I have higher expectations than you.
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| It never has been many that have been able to do that, and if you manage to do that well then you are blessed and very talanted/lucky. |
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Thank you. Nice of you to say so.
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| To expect it and get upset if you can't is just being full of yourself. |
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There I go with my high expectations and healthy self-esteem - hoping to get paid for what I do like everyone else.
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Justin Chaos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
117
Posts :
3086
Posted : Feb 17, 2005 00:20
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On 2005-02-16 23:11, Ott^ wrote:
There I go with my high expectations and healthy self-esteem - hoping to get paid for what I do like everyone else.
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 So there is english people with healthy self-esteem???
No worries a bought an original copy myself.
An BTW. where the hell is gangagil???
Don´t change your nick dude...is bad karma and remember...everytime you download a track god kills a kitty,so you´re a weapon of massive destruction...of cats,shame on you!!!
My fake plants died, because I did not pretend to water them. |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : Feb 17, 2005 01:00
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| I think it's quite unrealistic to expect to make a living out of only creating the music you like. |
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Well then I'm thankful I have higher expectations than you.
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| It never has been many that have been able to do that, and if you manage to do that well then you are blessed and very talanted/lucky. |
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Thank you. Nice of you to say so.
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| To expect it and get upset if you can't is just being full of yourself. |
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There I go with my high expectations and healthy self-esteem - hoping to get paid for what I do like everyone else.
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Well that sums it up for me.
Nice one
Thanx
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 17, 2005 01:23
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The analogy is very simple and you can theorise until the cows come home. As has been demonstrated many times, selling downloadable music online is simply not a viable business unless you have a hugely well known brand to ally it to and treat it as a tax deductable loss-leader. In other words, a cheap way of attracting new customers to your brand - Apple, Coke, Pepsi etc etc. |
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Well, the analogy is so simple and narrow minded that it's totally irrelevant.
And selling downloads is not showing to be losses for the industry.
In that case tell me how much the losses currently is and where you found the information, because I can only find figures about how much the profit is.
And in the trance scene in specific there is no figures, because the shops that currently excist sell a lower quality product than what you can get for free, or if they sell high quality it's at exuberant prices.
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You tried it yourself and it didn't work. |
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It's maybe not easy for you to understand, but I never said I try to sell music to make profit.
I clearly stated that I have no intention of making profit.
I do no proper promotion and run the site as a hobby for the pleasure of trying to get music I like out to people.
I'm not so naive that I think giving away free downloads of the full tracks will increase sales.
So you don't need to measure the project on commercial success, it's about sharing to spread a bit of good feeling in these times of blaming and winching.
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Can you demonstrate a REAL WORLD example of why buying a record and buying a toaster are in any way different to each other? I know there are conceptual, legal and philosophical differences, but the fact that you can't download a toaster from the internet in 3 minutes is the only one I can think of that is relevant.
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Since you know that there is conceptual, legal, philosphical and obviously practical differences why do you ask? What kind of other differences can there be?
There is to many differences for me to even know where I should start.
If you are buying music it is infact a license to use the music in certain ways stipulated by the license.
You can use your toaster as you like, you can let other people use it if you like, you can make toasts with it and sell them to people if you like.
You own the toaster.
You do not own a piece of music because you bought it.
That's one major difference in the REAL WORLD.
In the REAL WORLD I'm not buying a product, so there any fundamental similarities is gone.
Another thing is that in the REAL WORLD, if someone found a way to send toasters via the phone they would be selling loads of toasters.
If the toasters could be duplicated with no effort you would get loads of pirated toasters.
That would eventually lead to the toaster industry having to completly change it's business model.
But for me trying to get in to so far fetched comparasions is not that easy. You seem to be better at that.
Compare it to films, software or books.
But when you start comparing music with a toaster I'm afraid you lost me.
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and if you manage to do that well then you are blessed and very talanted/lucky.
Thank you. Nice of you to say so.
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Om my.
So you are lucky enough to be managing well from making the music you think is fun, and you still think it's unfair if all fans do not pay you?
I'm sorry about that.
Anyone said Metallica 
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Hokus Pokus
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
15
Posts :
62
Posted : Feb 17, 2005 01:52
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download download download......is it all u can do??? |
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Ott^
OTT
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
488
Posted : Feb 17, 2005 01:53
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On 2005-02-17 01:23, Spindrift wrote:
...you don't need to measure the project on commercial success, it's about sharing to spread a bit of good feeling in these times of blaming and winching. |
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Thats all very nice and bom shankar and everything, but I don't see much give and take going on. I just see a lot of "take".
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| So you are lucky enough to be managing well from making the music you think is fun, and you still think it's unfair if all fans do not pay you?
I'm sorry about that. |
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It has nothing to do with luck. I worked really hard for 20 years learning to do what I do - I didn't just find it under a bush. You think I don't need to eat and pay rent? There are no Porsches in my driveway.
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| Anyone said Metallica
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If I was 1000th as rich as Lars Ulrich I'd say you were justified in making that comparison. You are making the mistake of assuming anyone that sells a few records has got to be rich, and I think there are a few hard working people on this forum who would be happy to put you straight about that particular misapprehension.
Still, its always gratifying to see somebody run out of argument and resort to the tactics of a five year-old.
After all - why should you care who downloads what? Its not affecting you in any way. |
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HandA
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
890
Posted : Feb 17, 2005 02:18
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You can't really argue with Spindrift. he'll never get it!
In my opinion his an "artist" very bitter at the labels for not releasing his music So he argue over and over against the oh so evil labels and the oh so greedy artists releasing with those labels.
Now flame me spindrift... I don't care one bit.. I lost all my respect for you.. Your the most judgemental and brainwashed of all in this debate! |
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