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Why aren't tracks more DJ-friendly?

Shiranui
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :  116
Posts :  1219
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 07:44
maybe it reflects a fundamental difference in philosophy between the psytrance scene and other dance music scenes...

In a lot of dance scenes the producer sees himself as creating tools for the DJ to use, making little puzzle pieces that the DJ assembles into a complete work. That's how I see it anyway.

In any case, if you don't want to make tracks DJ-friendly, then make them shorter. Playing an entire 9 minute track, then another entire 9 minute track, etc... makes for boring, unflexible DJing.
subconsciousmind
SCM

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  1033
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 10:14
Quote:




In any case, if you don't want to make tracks DJ-friendly, then make them shorter. Playing an entire 9 minute track, then another entire 9 minute track, etc... makes for boring, unflexible DJing.



Pretty egoistic. Shouldn't the DJ try to give the audience the best music possible?

If my songs last more then 9 minutes then because I couldn't convey the message in a shorter time. If a DJ doesn't play a good song just because its too long and he gets bored then he is an egoist and forgot why he is actually there.           Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
RK9
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  21
Posts :  210
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 10:45
Quote:

On 2009-07-14 10:14, subconsciousmind wrote:
Quote:




In any case, if you don't want to make tracks DJ-friendly, then make them shorter. Playing an entire 9 minute track, then another entire 9 minute track, etc... makes for boring, unflexible DJing.



Pretty egoistic. Shouldn't the DJ try to give the audience the best music possible?

If my songs last more then 9 minutes then because I couldn't convey the message in a shorter time. If a DJ doesn't play a good song just because its too long and he gets bored then he is an egoist and forgot why he is actually there.


I dunno I think the attitude of "My songs are perfect any way you change them could only possibly make them worse!" is pretty egoistic

but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong
subconsciousmind
SCM

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  1033
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 16:17
Quote:

On 2009-07-14 10:45, RK9 wrote:
Quote:

On 2009-07-14 10:14, subconsciousmind wrote:
Quote:




In any case, if you don't want to make tracks DJ-friendly, then make them shorter. Playing an entire 9 minute track, then another entire 9 minute track, etc... makes for boring, unflexible DJing.



Pretty egoistic. Shouldn't the DJ try to give the audience the best music possible?

If my songs last more then 9 minutes then because I couldn't convey the message in a shorter time. If a DJ doesn't play a good song just because its too long and he gets bored then he is an egoist and forgot why he is actually there.


I dunno I think the attitude of "My songs are perfect any way you change them could only possibly make them worse!" is pretty egoistic

but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong



Well you are wrong

You find it egoistic that I make my music just the way I want it? What kind of musician would I be if I wouldn't make my music so that I find it perfect?


When I'm a musician, I make music to express my self nobody has to listen to it or no DJ has to play it.

When I'm DJing my purpose is another one. Then I'm there for the people and I want to present them the best music possible and give them the best possible musical experience by giving them the best work of musicians. Then I don't try to boast (or entertain) myself with as many mixes as possible in the shortest time.



It is totally logical for a musician to only release music which he finds best the way it is.

Sure there are musicians who release music in order to deliver material to be worked with in various ways too. Thats cool too. But I'm not that kind and a DJ has to be able to understand what kind of music he plays and wants to play.



          Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
Shiranui
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :  116
Posts :  1219
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 18:16
Quote:

On 2009-07-14 16:17, subconsciousmind wrote:

You find it egoistic that I make my music just the way I want it? What kind of musician would I be if I wouldn't make my music so that I find it perfect?

Well, YOU find it perfect, does not mean that everyone else does. People have different tastes.

but whatever, it's not a big deal, didn't mean to set you off
subconsciousmind
SCM

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  1033
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 18:53
Quote:

On 2009-07-14 18:16, Shiranui wrote:
Quote:

On 2009-07-14 16:17, subconsciousmind wrote:

You find it egoistic that I make my music just the way I want it? What kind of musician would I be if I wouldn't make my music so that I find it perfect?

Well, YOU find it perfect, does not mean that everyone else does. People have different tastes.

but whatever, it's not a big deal, didn't mean to set you off



? Sure just me, who said otherwise? Whats your point? I'm just saying that it is not egoistic for an artist to make the music so that he finds it perfect therefore not changing it so that DJs can mix it better. because somebody said it was egoistic of me wanting to make my songs perfect no matter if DJs like it or not.

But DJs not playing brilliant long songs to the audience just because they want to mix more often I consider egoistic.
          Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
Shiranui
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :  116
Posts :  1219
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 19:15
well SCM, here's a question for you.

Let's say you have made a track that I like, but the beginning is structured such that it's very hard to mix.

What I would do in this situation is add a click track or a minimal little beat right before the beginning of the song to aid mixing. Here is the important part: The part that I add would never be heard by the dancefloor, I don't start mixing the track in until it's over.

Would you have a problem with that? It's not like I would really be changing your song because no one would hear the part that is different anyway.

A good example is this classic track







The long ambient intro sounds really cool but has no beats in it so it can be hard to hear just how many bars long it is and where the 1 is without listening to it over and over again, so I would add something before it
subconsciousmind
SCM

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  1033
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 20:04
I find this very creative and very respectful to the musicians work.

Thank you for such effort and I admire that you are willing to take this extra work so that you can play such a song. I think with that you are a very good example of a DJ who respects the artists work. You do the work necessairy and do not demand it from the musician.

The problem for me and not making DJ-Friendly songs is that I usually just release one version of the song on a sampler or album. This version has to be "IT" so I make it as an artwork.
Basically, musically I wouldn't mind to add straight beats in the end and the beginning for DJs since I know that the non-beat beginning and end parts are being mixed away anyways and therefore on the dancefloor are not part of the art. But since I release only one version of the song I have to decide who do I want to please? The DJ or the Art and the listener? I decide of course, for the sake of the music and the art, for the latter.

          Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
Shiranui
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :  116
Posts :  1219
Posted : Jul 14, 2009 21:06
That's a good point. In other genres of EDM songs are usually released more than once: Traditionally, the full mix for DJs was released on a vinyl 12" (one track per side at 45 RPM for maximum sound quality), and then the version on compilations or albums would either be a shorter version or it would be part of a continuous mix.

For example, this version of "Gouryella":






versus this version:





DjBrahman


Started Topics :  0
Posts :  6
Posted : Jul 16, 2009 17:53
Quote:

On 2009-02-14 18:20, disco hooligans wrote:
Dark trance DJs dont care about mixing tunes together. They just trainwreck the fuck out of everything, its the style and the whole breaking the rules thing.
Goa Gill does it all the time. He is the best DJ in the genre.




i don´t agree with you... nothing at all!! i mix darkpsy (and progressive trance, and minimal tech)... i hold mixes for 3/4 min, i do harmonic mixing, and i respect the compass, the phrase, and all the construction rules of the music, and yes sometimes, once in a while i "trainwreck the fuck out of everything" because breaking the rules can fit truly well in a mix, if sounds good, why not?! and if i mix like this and i'm very young in this art, there is Djs arround the world that do this too!!

cumps

DjBrahman


Started Topics :  0
Posts :  6
Posted : Jul 16, 2009 18:58
Quote:

On 2009-02-18 23:23, Login wrote:
They dont make it dj friendly cause these days in psytrance dj's are undervalued, everybody want "live acts" couch, cough, So nobody is mixing at big parties with cdj's so who cares about making music for mixing?????




you are damn right its kind of a frustration for me! i think a DJ have a very very important job in a party, and no one cares! better some live acts instead, but a live act is a LIVE ACT right!!

cumps
subconsciousmind
SCM

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  1033
Posted : Aug 17, 2009 14:42
Well, who sais everything that happens in a forum is just virtual.

Triggered through this discussion I have created "easier to beatmix" versions of two of my songs on my new album and published them (along with the whole album which is available for free) on my website.

I would never have put those DJ-Friendly versions on the album itself since I find they disturb the flow of the song, but for DJ-mixing those versions make sense.

http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/music/album-intermezzo-extended

Best wishes
Raphael           Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
tjaal
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  22
Posts :  113
Posted : Aug 21, 2009 00:52
Quote:

On 2009-08-17 14:42, subconsciousmind wrote:
Well, who sais everything that happens in a forum is just virtual.

Triggered through this discussion I have created "easier to beatmix" versions of two of my songs on my new album and published them (along with the whole album which is available for free) on my website.

I would never have put those DJ-Friendly versions on the album itself since I find they disturb the flow of the song, but for DJ-mixing those versions make sense.

http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/music/album-intermezzo-extended

Best wishes
Raphael




hey, thats really a great move!
i am curious to se the result in those tracks. didnt even know you have a new album for download
thats something i think artists should do more, or put a samplepack with the album, or even rests of stuff you were doing in the album. many of the listeners and fans nowadays are djs too, even if just by fun

have been following this topic, really nice. i used to play years ago with vinyls, and i miss too these kind of "edits" you could find more in other eletronic genres, more directed to DJs.

would be fun to play with a "base version" (just the base- bassline drums- fxs, and not much 'surprises' on the flow of the track, hehe) or other crazy dj edits
Psynthex
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  41
Posts :  681
Posted : Aug 21, 2009 01:36
Calm down guys ) Take it easy... you are way out of topic..for some pages now

slowww           Psynthex [ Vertikal Records ]
http://www.myspace.com/psynthex

Minniq [ Parked Below Records ]

Frequent Pill [ Ultimae Records ]
Shiranui
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :  116
Posts :  1219
Posted : Aug 30, 2009 14:34
SCM I'm glad to see that you have done that!

However, not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but usually the difficulty is at the *beginning* of the track, not the end.

In the Spirallianz track I gave as an example, you can use the first church bell sound as a cue point, but then it is easy to confuse yourself because the church bell sounds after that are off-beat. Then the drums and bass fade in such that you can't really tell which is the FIRST bass drum because they start out so quiet, so it's very easy to over-correct or under-correct your beatmatching so that you end up a beat or two ahead or behind.

Here is what I feel like I like in an intro that I am able to beatmatch it well:

Some kind of sound on the first beat of every 4th bar. It does not have to be a kick drum but it should be some kind of sharp sound that you can easily tell exactly what time it happens. Ideally, the first one of these should be some multiple of sixteen bars before the first drop, but that isn't necessary. These sounds should have enough highs or mids that you can hear them clearly with the bass cut out.

The second helpful thing is to add some hi-hat or snare like sounds in the spots where such sounds would generally be. For example, you could put a little closed hi-hat after the four of each bar (one two three four-tsst-one two three four-tsst-one two three four...)
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