| Author
|
Spiritual Property: Does psytrance steal cultures?
|
Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 20:02
|
This post is inspired by the “what have hindu gods to do with trance” thread t hat is on this board.
I have been thinking about how much of our culture is borrowed (stolen?) from other peoples cultures. This includes samples used in music, iconography used on CD covers and decorations etc....
My question is: Does a culture have some sort of rights to its traditional music and arts? Something akin to copyrights?
In other words, if we use someones traditional tribal chant, or drum patterns or whatnot, are we violating that culture? What if the way we use it creates misunderstandings about that culture, or perpetuates stereotypes those people might be working hard to get rid of.
Are there any circumstances under which this is OK? For example, if one person from that culture tells you it’s OK to use it, does that make it OK? Or does there need to be some sort of consenus?
Is it ever OK?
I know that many Native Americans are deeply offended by white people doing things like conducting sweat lodges and sun dances, making medicine wheels, and giving themseleves names like “Red Cloud” “Crashing Thunder” etc. Some have even gone so far as to describe the use of Native American articles of spirituality by whites as “spiritual colonialism”. We take all their land, and then when they dirt poor and all crammed in reservations then we take their spirituality as well. I’d be pretty pissed off too!
----
Beyond the reach of human range,
A drop of hell, a touch of strange |
|
|
Naturlijk
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
32
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 20:11
|
|
i think alot of trance people dont intend to steal but relate their "experiences" to these cultures even though they dont know so much about it. and they do this becuase nothing in the western world can describe that for them even a little bit. |
|
|
|
DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
Posts :
2299
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 20:15
|
psytrance seems to be on of the post-modern cultures that builds its identity through borrowing the elements from other pre-existing cultures that it deems acceptable. "Collage" culture - really the only spirituality, the only tribalism we can come up with in this day and age besides virtual online tribes like err.. this forum. And tribalism is something we're yearning for because it seems the most natural way for humans to live together, and, besides, we're all so alienated..
 ..it's just another party.. |
|
|
|
*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
Posts :
2314
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 20:17
|
@ Psycosmo
Maybe thats the 'beauty' of psytrance. To take from every culture and morph it into one, expanding and presenting it to all of us is superb. By 'all of us' i mean the psytrance scene globally, probably one of the most diverse scenes after rock'n'roll.
Also, the 'west' has always had a penchant for anythin mystical, which is commonly attributed to the 'east'.
P.S I wud be way happier if i heard an Indian chant/ prayer in a track instead of another matrix sample.!
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
|
|
|
DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
Posts :
2299
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 20:19
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-06-15 20:17, *Karma Cola* wrote:
Also, the 'west' has always had a penchant for anythin mystical, which is commonly attributed to the 'east'. |
|
Yeah.. the 19th century English got curious after taking over half the world, 'what is it those savages do in their free time? it can't be anymore exciting than tea and crackers, now, can it?' 
..it's just another party.. |
|
|
|
mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 21:21
|
|
The nature of American culture has always been a hodgepodge of their environment. There's an old Alan Parson's Project song that springs to mind "Vulture Culture".... Humanity bases their evolution around the environment that they are in. Rather than considering it stealing, I would rather think that we are incorporating the things we have learned from other cultures to hopefully better our own outlook on life. Most of the time this is not the case, but I'd like to think that we still are learning from the miscellaneous cultures we pillage.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
|
|
|
Aldus B
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
140
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 22:04
|
|
I think it's great to use aspects of other cultures. "Culture" is nothing more than a predefined system of beliefs passed down from generation to generation, stifling individual thought all the way. The more we mix and mash cultures the less reason we will have to fear the things that are different. |
|
|
|
TRapp
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
271
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 22:29
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-06-15 20:02, Psycosmo wrote:
I know that many Native Americans are deeply offended by white people doing things like conducting sweat lodges and sun dances, making medicine wheels, and giving themseleves names like “Red Cloud” “Crashing Thunder” etc. Some have even gone so far as to describe the use of Native American articles of spirituality by whites as “spiritual colonialism”. We take all their land, and then when they dirt poor and all crammed in reservations then we take their spirituality as well. I’d be pretty pissed off too!
|
|
since when is spirituality elitest????
how about white man be pissed off that all other people of different colour embraces christianty etc....
so frankly i think that red indians having a view like that isnt so cool
i mean come on, do you think Pagan people get pissed off because little Johnny is interested in their views ideas and ceromies,
i think they should rather be proud that people of different culture is willing to embrace and see their spirituality , instead of elitest bullshit of , you cant do that because it is ours.....not very plur
and on top of that we are all human and in essence the same energy beings , so fuck this shit of one group saying that another cant embrace their beliefs
and no i dont think psy trance is destroying other cultures....what crap....again an elitest view...psy trance is hardly doing suck a thing, it hasnt agreat enough power to do so...
think about what you are saying...do you think people from other cultures are embracing or letting psy trance become their belief etc and blah, blah , if that was the case then yes,....but it isnt ..
psy is its own culture and is doing nothing to any other culture....those cultures still exsist in their own right..and most within them dont even know what the hell psy is ....
represent~~ |
|
|
|
*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
Posts :
2314
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 23:25
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-06-15 22:29, TRapp wrote:
since when is spirituality elitest????
how about white man be pissed off that all other people of different colour embraces christianty etc....
so frankly i think that red indians having a view like that isnt so cool
i mean come on, do you think Pagan people get pissed off because little Johnny is interested in their views ideas and ceromies,
i think they should rather be proud that people of different culture is willing to embrace and see their spirituality , instead of elitest bullshit of , you cant do that because it is ours.....not very plur
and on top of that we are all human and in essence the same energy beings , so fuck this shit of one group saying that another cant embrace their beliefs
and no i dont think psy trance is destroying other cultures....what crap....again an elitest view...psy trance is hardly doing suck a thing, it hasnt agreat enough power to do so...
think about what you are saying...do you think people from other cultures are embracing or letting psy trance become their belief etc and blah, blah , if that was the case then yes,....but it isnt ..
psy is its own culture and is doing nothing to any other culture....those cultures still exsist in their own right..and most within them dont even know what the hell psy is ....
represent~~
|
|
Religions were meant to be for anyone interested.. instead we now have such a 'set' idea of religion . and how this is acceptable and this is'nt .Bullshit !!
Just to clarify things for myself.. What do u mean when u say "Pagan". ??
is it because its not 'Christian'. ??
or..?
i agree on the fact that poeple shud be proud that other folks are interested in knowin what is also out there.. not just tied down by somethin they have been taught, or have grown up around..
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
|
|
|
Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jun 16, 2005 04:58
|
TRapp and KarmaCola I think you guys are soooo wrong!
@TRapp
>>>since when is spirituality elitest???? <<<
Many religions involve secret teaching and special initiations. Many religions deepest knowledge is only known by certain people and passed on to certain people. If the wrong people know it then it gets profaned. Furthermore, without complete knowledge of a culture that an outsider rarely attains, the symbols and practices of that culture might be misinterpreted by even a well meaining outsider.
>>>how about white man be pissed off that all other people of different colour embraces christianty etc...<<<
But these arent thw white man and they arent christianity. Christianity is a religion that tries to convert people. Thats what Chrisitans do. The religions we are potentially stealing from may view the whole conversion issue completely differently. In fact i know that some of them do. With Native Americans each tribe has special practices/symbols/stories that unique to that tribe and the only way you get to use them is by being born into that tribe.
>>>i think they should rather be proud that people of different culture is willing to embrace and see their spirituality <<<
That's your opinion. Others would beg to differ.
@KarmaCola
>>Religions were meant to be for anyone interested.. <<<
Sorry that just isnt true. Some religions are exoteric and make all their teachings public, do missionary work etc.., others are esoteric and depend on secret teachings and initiations. Look at what i said to Trapp
|
|
|
|
Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jun 16, 2005 05:13
|
... For example take Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is a very highly regarded plant in the Amazon. Shamans start training at as young as 11 years of age. They spend months eating special diets, abstaining from sex etc. In other words it's a big deal.
I think that using the name of that drink as a marketing gimmick for a cd is in pretty bad taste and if people are going to borrow from other cultures they should at least learn a little bit about those cultures and show some respect. I mean come on the "Deep in the Amazon the Ancient Incas used the holy Ayahuasca" sample! The Incas werent even from the Amazon, they were from the Andes mountains next to the Amazon. I know it sounds like nitpicking but I really dont feel the statement that oversights like that make about our style.
|
|
|
|
*Karma Cola*
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
Posts :
2314
Posted : Jun 16, 2005 05:53
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-06-16 04:58, Psycosmo wrote:
@KarmaCola
>>Religions were meant to be for anyone interested.. <<<
Sorry that just isnt true. Some religions are exoteric and make all their teachings public, do missionary work etc.., others are esoteric and depend on secret teachings and initiations. Look at what i said to Trapp
|
|
Nope!.. i still stand by the fact that no religion has been derived for the sole purpose of enlightenin only a few..
thats never been teh case with any religion. You might say certain 'ceremonies' are private and personal, but not the religion. religion was meant to unite, its only over many years of narrow minded interpretation , the outcome has been soemthin totally different.
~*** You can tell By the way i use my walk, Im a woman's man, No time to Talk***~ |
|
|
|
sorceress
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
833
Posted : Jun 16, 2005 10:40
|
psy is a universal tribe which borrows from all cultures
that what we stand for.
we celebrate the fact that we are all one
so each culture shows more.
Dont thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously use your intelligence
---------------------------------------------
Protons and Proteins |
|
|
|
Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jun 16, 2005 10:56
|
no! no! no! I so totally disagree! Think about it for a sec you are applying your concept of religion and saying that all religions are like that or were like that.
In many societies the religious practices are in fact quite specific to the immidiate surroundings of that people. For example if corn is what your livlihood depends on then you worship the corn gods. If you dont go out and grow corn every day, the only corn you know is corn flakes, then who are you to start monkeying with those peoples corn god? besides the fact that you will look like a fool you never know you might be in some way fucking up the energy of their corn-growing rituals.
Certainly not all religion is about enlightment look at Christianity is it about enlightment, be it for the many or the few? No it's about accepting Jesus and the Bible and living by Christian codes of behavior. At least thats my understanding, not being a Christian myself.
Not being able to go back in time and see for myself, I would argue that unity and enlightenment are not the basis of all religion. Back to the corn example, religion might have started as learning to control the forces of nature (eg making sure the corn grows).
|
|
|
|
Alisia~
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
113
Posted : Jun 16, 2005 11:10
|
Goa trance was born as a mixture of oriental and western culture.
|
|
|
|
