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Trance Forum  Forum  Trance - Sound Engineers Vs Musicians
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Sound Engineers Vs Musicians

DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  70
Posts :  2299
Posted : May 8, 2004 03:36
It wouldn't hurt anyone to learn some basic music theory, like chord progressions, different keys, and the like. I feel that a lot of producers lack that knowledge these days, which results in the music sounding flat and repetitive. One good example of someone who has musical knowledge is Penta - and you can definitely tell from the complexity of his music.

Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  90
Posts :  2268
Posted : May 8, 2004 12:49
The limits of acoustic music have been shed, and the less limited someone is by meloides and harmonies, the more creative they can be. Just like in abstract painting, where the barriers between technical knowledge and 'classic' art have been broken down, the same can be applied to electronic music.

Squarepusher - My Red Hot Car... A track made of ONE complete eight beat loop (which really kicks ass) and technical games for over 4 minutes is one of the most brilliant pieces of electronic music ever.

From the psytrance world - I think it was Simon Posford in an interview which said "there are only 12 notes in western music, experiment with the combinations and you'll eventually get a good melody"... Well, it may be something said by someone who is both a great musician and a talented sound engineer, but I think it still applies.

The bottom line of the music is that your ears listen to one wave of sound and all of the divisions into specific parts are NOT a natural thing but rather something that people are taught to listen to. A door creaking and a guitar solo are all the same from the ear's point of view (.. point of listening?), the big picture is what counts, not the segments it's made of.           http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222
motorik
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  14
Posts :  153
Posted : May 8, 2004 13:15
I think many artists in psy trance find the place to express their musical talent in ambient/chillout music which is many times the slower brother of psy trance.
In this case a sound engineer with no musical talent will bump into many difficulties trying to create an amazing ambient track with the right melodies on the right time.

But psy trance indeed can be written by sound engineers with no musical knowledge and talent altough it can be felt sometimes who is musician and whose not , it gets harder as the style get less melodic.

I agree with drooid ,Tim-sensient is actually one of those artists that you can feel the musical talent and knowledge even though he almost have no melodies in his music.

salute
motorik





          "one good thing about music is when it hits you , you feel no pain" - Bob Marley
Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  90
Posts :  2268
Posted : May 8, 2004 14:10
With all due respect - ambient also has beautiful non-melodic moments, from acts like Autechre and Plastikman have made some of the most amazing (and totally unmelodic) chill tracks ever, with their roots being deep into techno music and with no connection whatsoever to psytrance. The fact that ambient has to be melodic is a psytrancer and rock music invention, it is not a universal truth.           http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222
motorik
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  14
Posts :  153
Posted : May 8, 2004 16:02
yes kaz you right i looked from the trance influence on ambient perspective.

          "one good thing about music is when it hits you , you feel no pain" - Bob Marley
DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  70
Posts :  2299
Posted : May 9, 2004 07:10
Quote:

On 2004-05-08 12:49, kaz wrote:
The limits of acoustic music have been shed, and the less limited someone is by meloides and harmonies, the more creative they can be. Just like in abstract painting, where the barriers between technical knowledge and 'classic' art have been broken down, the same can be applied to electronic music.



If I am not mistaken, most good abstract painters are skilled in the basic drawing and painting techniques and familiar with art theory.

timsensient
Sensient

Started Topics :  101
Posts :  438
Posted : May 9, 2004 08:31
Quote:

On 2004-05-08 12:49, kaz wrote:
The limits of acoustic music have been shed, and the less limited someone is by meloides and harmonies, the more creative they can be. Just like in abstract painting, where the barriers between technical knowledge and 'classic' art have been broken down, the same can be applied to electronic music.




Intersting and quite possibly true in some regards, but i dont think this can be applied to psytrance, or in fact any type of music for dance (speaking mainly from a rythm point of view). Unless you stick within certain boundaries of programming i cant see how you will make people dance. This can be somewhat frustrating i think when writing psytrance cause its true, there is not as much freedom for musical experimentation as some other styles. Ive been writing some breakbeat lately which i found very liberating.
Also i think its quite possible that in some ways it can be a good thing not to have a musical background - perhaps you impose less limits on yourself. But in the end i would say that a musician will make a more effective and interesting groove every time.


shahar
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  155
Posts :  2037
Posted : May 9, 2004 09:57
I'm not a musician and I have never studied music, only been listening for more than 20 years.

I have find myself saying lately (to myself and to others) that a lot of trance music I hear these days is lacking in music.

Why is that? It might be just me changing, but I don't think so. I think that a much smaller percentage of the people writing trance tracks are writing music. A lot of the tracks lack in story, lack in rhythm, lack in melody, lack in build, lack in feel...
Now as I'm no musician I can't tell you why (technicaly) does that happen, but it does. I tend to think it's a lack of musical talent or lack of will to evolve musically.

Now you don't have to be a classically trained musician, or any other kind of trained musician to write good music. But like everything in life, if you wanna be able to do something better, you need to learn and to expand.

You can do that by experimenting yourself, you can do that by studying. I know of only three artists (only one of them is "pure" trance, the others ambient/electro that are part of our scene also) that are actually studying music to improve their writing skills.


          ---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi

"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley

Le Lotus Bleu
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  114
Posts :  438
Posted : May 9, 2004 12:43
Definitvly agree for more musical skills in trance artists scene, according to me the level drastically fall down since 1 year.
Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  90
Posts :  2268
Posted : May 9, 2004 18:43
I didn't argue that musical talent was irrelevant, I said that it is quite possible to make awesome tracks without ANY usage of 'proper' melodic or harmonic tools, with examples in the worlds of IDM, techno, some house music, and yes, even psytrance. With all due respect, some of the greatest psytrance tracks of all times have been NOT melodic (and I'm not talking only techtrance, progressive and minimal here) - making something truely special has nothing to do with a sense for melody, but rather with a sense for something truely unique.

I gave Squarepusher as an example of an artist that makes highly technical music, but the guy is one of the greatest improvisers since jazz's most glorious days in the first half of the 20th century. X-Dream have done a lot of melodic work in the past, yet some of their greatest tracks had only basic harmonic work (Rewind is a great album to demonstrate this). Plastikman knows how to use very simple harmonies (2 one note melodies and a string) to create atmospheres that some of the greatest composers couldn't touch with a full orchestra to back them up.

For all the people who are saying that melodies in psytrance are growing less and less deep, it should come as no surprise as this has been the trend since 1997 and is still continuing now. It took me a long time to open my mind to less melodic music, and I still love good melodic music, but saying that it is a prerequisite for good music is saying that techno music was one giant mistake, psytrance should have never left goa music, house music is nearly always for retards (let's admit it, even in the richer melodic tracks, they don't stand out)... continuing this line of thought, rock, pop, disco and even jazz were mistakes. We should have stayed with good old Ludwig and left it at that.

Of course, when I take this way of thought to extremes, it sounds totally ridiculous. But dogmatic ideologies usually are.
          http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222
Surrender
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  506
Posts :  5388
Posted : May 9, 2004 20:21
kaz i specifically mentioned that melodies have nothing to do with it. a musical talent doesnt mean the track has to be melodic.           "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon
~Wonderland~


Started Topics :  9
Posts :  23
Posted : May 9, 2004 21:25
this is why G.M.S rule ??

Trance Forum  Forum  Trance - Sound Engineers Vs Musicians
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